libera/#devuan/ Sunday, 2020-12-20

rwpI think memory leaks are definitely on topic.00:02
rwpI am not using Mate (or other DE at all) but Firefox is definitely a memory pig.00:03
rwpHowever the Internet web today pretty much consumes all resources to operate as designed by the web site designers.00:03
rwpA clock however should reach steady state resource use pretty quick and then stay there.00:04
bigdumbelkany of you all install devuan on a librem 1500:22
fsmithredsystemdlete, is 1.22 new enough?00:22
fsmithredhttp://hezeh.org/mate-desktop-1.22/00:23
bigdumbelkwant to get a systemd free system with kill switches in a librem 1500:23
systemdletefsmithred:  I'm not sure what standard the mate devs go by.  They say the current release is 1.24.  They did not mention anything re 1.22.00:55
fsmithredhezeh.org has 1.22 for beowulf00:56
systemdletefsmithred:  Devuan Beowulf is not a modern distro... uhm.00:56
systemdletelol00:56
fsmithredit's current stable based on debian's current stable.00:57
systemdleteyep.00:57
fsmithredSo of course it's not new.00:57
fsmithredchimaera and ceres have 1.2400:57
systemdleteIf I follow the argument literally, then I guess MATE requires whatever-is-the-tip-version-in-the-source-repo00:58
fsmithredor read the changelogs to see where they fixed the panel00:58
systemdleteMaybe the REAL solution is not to use MATE00:58
fsmithredxfce panel works in beowulf and chimaera/ceres00:58
systemdleteI think the issue may have to do with libraries that changed in debian 1100:59
fsmithredpretty sure lxpanel works, too00:59
fsmithredcheck anto's version too. (hezeh) It might be fixed there. He backports mate and cinnamon for devuan.01:00
systemdleteyes, I have had decent luck with xfce nearly everywhere.  lxde and lxqt have been somewhat less reliable.  Sometimes I found they didn't have all the pieces01:00
systemdleteok, will do.01:00
systemdletefsmithred:  Is the fact I installed using star not devuan matter?   I'm thinking that's mainly installer choice.  They all use the same repos, right?01:01
fsmithredafaik01:01
fsmithredlook in sources.list01:01
fsmithredyeah, I do know. Star is just devuan.01:02
systemdletethey are the same.01:02
systemdleteI'll give hezeh a go01:02
systemdletethanks for your patience again fsmithred!01:03
fsmithreddpkg -l task-mate-desktop01:03
fsmithredsee if the metapackage is installed01:03
systemdletedpkg-query: no packages found matching task-mate-desktop01:03
systemdleteI think I might have installed it differently, but idr now01:04
fsmithredcool01:04
fsmithredthat'll make it easier to remove stuff01:04
systemdleteantofox-keyrings is missing?01:09
systemdletedo I need to contact the dev?01:09
systemdleteapt-get install antofox-keyrings --allow-unauthenticated01:09
systemdlete(instructions on page at hezeh.org)01:09
systemdletebtw, there is no www.hezeh.org, only hezeh.org, it seems01:10
systemdleteother than that, the update worked, but gave me the error about needing the key.  So I did that and got this error01:10
fsmithredadd the key and then apt update again01:10
systemdletecan I use the keyserver instead of his instructions?01:11
fsmithreduse what keyserver?01:11
systemdletekeys.gnupg.net01:11
fsmithredI think I downloaded it from his site directly01:12
systemdletewell, the instructions at his page are not working for me.  I'll try adding the key with the method I know01:12
fsmithredhttp://hezeh.org/packages/pool/main/a/antofox-keyrings/01:13
fsmithreddownload the .deb and install with dpkg01:13
systemdletethat worked to fix the key issue.  Thanks.01:19
systemdleteBut following his instructions doesn't seem to work.  Yours do.01:19
systemdletehe wants me to install mate-desktop-environment, but after the apt update, apt already knows I want to update all the mate packages.01:20
systemdleteCan I just do the update, and skip the mate-desktop-environment?01:20
fsmithredprobably01:21
fsmithredis that package already installed?01:21
systemdleteI see that apt wants to install all the 1.22 packages anyway01:21
systemdletenot sure01:21
fsmithreddpkg -l |grep mate01:21
systemdleteyes.  It says it already has latest version01:21
fsmithredwill show you all the installed packages with mate in the name01:21
fsmithredgotta go. bbl.01:22
systemdletefsmithred:  I upgraded one of my 2 star VM's and running my memory leak script for a few hours02:40
systemdleteand re-enabled the "show seconds" just to be sure that works right now.02:43
systemdleteand I am seeing 132 byte increases in memory by the panel again.02:43
Xenguysystemdlete: How do you typically monitor the memory leakage in MATE.  I confess I haven't been able to detect any memory problems with MATE, but I'm only looking on Ascii so far02:44
systemdleteLooks like about once every 1m 20s02:44
Xenguyer, leakage in mate-panel02:44
systemdleteXenguy:  I have a memory leak script I wrote myself.02:44
Xenguyhuh, ok02:44
systemdleteXenguy:  The leak is very tiny, so it is mostly unnoticeable.  Trouble is, over a day or so, that can amount to several 100MBs of growth.  After a few days or maybe weeks, it creates an OOM condition and all heck follows02:46
XenguyOK, will keep an eye on it as best I can, but so far so good02:47
systemdlete(it could just be something local here, though so many others have reported it also, so it is not likely)02:50
systemdleteInteresting to note that both mate-panel AND the clock applet are increasing by these 132 byte increments, though the clock not as frequently.02:58
systemdleteMore interesting yet is that the increases are not coming on the minute, but at varying times (number of seconds after the minute).02:59
systemdleteSo one has to wonder how/why these tiny memory increases are occurring.02:59
masonsystemdlete: Bad programming.03:02
systemdletemason: y'think?  lol.  yeah03:05
n4dirdid you shellcheck it?03:06
n4dirif it is bash or such. didn't fully understand it. But sure ain't hard to screw such03:07
masonsystemdlete: It can be hard to track that sort of thing. Might be an actual memory leak, or it could be bookkeeping without realistic self-awareness.03:07
systemdletewhat does that mean?03:10
systemdleteI would hope that frameworks for building things like desktop environments would offer some sort of memory use profiling.  If nothing else, aren't there linters out there to do that sort of thing?03:10
systemdleten4dir: This is a perl script, and it is not the target we are looking at.  My script scans ps output every so many seconds03:12
systemdletethe target is mate-panel, and this is a known problem up until at least 1.24 (the latest according to mate devs)03:13
systemdletemate-panel is part of the MATE DE03:13
n4dirget rid of mate panel then?03:13
systemdleteOr just get rid of computers altogether why don't we.  That is CERTAIN to eliminate all bugs and security problems, right?03:14
systemdlete:p03:14
n4diryou sure can use different panels or none at all in other DE's. iirc03:14
systemdleteIn that case, I'd rather just turn to  a different DE altogether.  But this is an interesting issue, and I kinda like MATE, ok?03:15
n4dirand why investigate a known problem?03:15
n4dirto me Mate didn't look outstanding ressource friendly in general03:16
masonsystemdlete: What I mean is, it might not be a memory leak in the sense of an error. It might be bad design insofar as it doesn't consider memory over time for little book-keeping details. I don't know - I don't use the stuff.03:17
systemdleteI still don't follow.   A memory leak is caused by not ensuring that memory is released once it is no longer needed.03:49
systemdleteOr are you saying that the panel needs 132 more bytes of memory every few minutes because it is keeping a log of some sort internally?03:50
systemdleteI agree with you that there is a basic design and/or implementation problem with it.03:57
systemdleten4dir:  We were not investigating a known problem per se.  We were investigating whether the 1.22 version had the corrections their devs referred to.  It was worth a try.03:58
clortsorry i missed your question n4dir04:08
clortnew youtube-dl works for me04:09
n4diri could give you the link, if you need: Kunst in Aktion. It is quite ok04:13
masonsystemdlete: That's the possibility, yeah, it's tracking something legitimately and not ever considering the impact over time. But I don't know. It's one of the possibilities.04:45
postalhi guys how to fix this error. tried everything, nothing helps https://0bin.net/paste/af9BIbep#uXUv5kKSnrMI58qDJ5AUX3hJizJMNAt9UzKG7bxjhbY13:01
gnarfacepostal: use paste.debian.net and i'll look at it13:02
clorthi postal13:07
clortcan you describe the problem13:07
postalgnarface http://paste.debian.net/117770013:16
postalI can't apt upgrade for this error "Hash Sum mismatch"13:17
gnarfacepostal: well you have deb-multimedia in there, which you shouldn't do and may also be causing problems, but my best guess is that you started this when "stable" was different, and now it's hosed because they changed which release is called "stable" out from underneath you13:19
gnarfacepostal: use the proper release names and get deb-multimedia crap out of there and it should be able to complete the upgrade with a little massaging13:20
gnarfacepostal: (you might have to manually remove some packages, finish updating from the old release, then complete an upgrade to the new release)13:20
fsmithredcould be that the mirror is in the middle of updating. Try again in an hour or two.13:21
fsmithredusing third-party repos is a crap shoot and using "stable" instead of the current codename "beowulf" may cause problems when the debian stable changes and devuan does not.13:22
gnarfaceyea it might be relevant how long it has been since this started happening but i guess in my head i assumed "tried everything" included waiting a day13:26
gnarfacesame error occasionally comes out of my proxy when the server updates between the proxy cache refresh interval13:27
gnarface(clears itself within 5 minutes usually, or if i manually run an update without it)13:27
postalstill doesn't work even with current codename "beowulf" instead of "stable" and without deb-multimedia and other repos in sources.list.d http://paste.debian.net/117770113:42
gnarfacepostal: did you try it once with ascii first?13:43
gnarfacepostal: ascii instead of beowulf13:43
postalI installed clean beowulf, although I don't remember much, since this is not my laptop, but my mother's, I just update it from time to time13:53
gnarfaceoh, it's not an update from a previous version?13:55
gnarfacecould you paste your /etc/apt/sources.list and the contents of anything in /etc/apt/sources.list.d/ ?13:55
gnarfacei'll just sanity check it for you13:55
gnarfaceor, you could just remove it all and use this example instead: https://paste.debian.net/1177702/14:02
postalMy sources.list and sources.list.d repos https://paste.debian.net/1177703/14:17
gnarfacepostal: and you're not running an apt proxy, right?  then i'd say yea probably just wait and speak up again if it's not cleared in a few hours14:21
gnarfaceusually doesn't need more than a half hour or so but i think it can regularly take 2?14:22
gnarfacedon't quote me on that14:22
postali don't use apt proxy14:28
gnarfacejust making sure14:29
fsmithredhttps://sledjhamr.org/apt-panopticon/results/Report-web.html14:29
fsmithredsome mirrors are down14:29
fsmithredpostal, here's a possible fix for the problem: https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?pid=11331#p1133114:33
postalunfortunately i do "rm -rf /var/lib/apt/lists/*" before apt update constantly, but doesn't help.14:48
captainfixerpc14model t car drawing17:57
captainfixerpc14oops17:57
fsmithredcan it run linux?18:01
captainfixerpc14working on that :P18:05
captainfixerpc14lsb_release -a18:14
captainfixerpc14arggggggg18:14
captainfixerpc14too many keyboards18:14
captainfixerpc14sorry18:15
systemdletelightdm: PAM adding faulty module: pam_systemd.so20:03
systemdletelightdm: PAM unable to dlopen(pam_systemd.so): /lib/security/pam_systemd.so: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory20:03
systemdletehehehheh... there is no escaping it, is there?20:03
systemdlete(it's EVERYwhere)20:04
systemdletefsmithred:  Thanks for the suggestion of the mate 1.22 repo.  Sadly, though, it did not help.  Apparently the fixes are only in 1.24+.   Still, thanks for trying.20:05
fsmithredyw20:06
systemdleteI could try filing for a backport, but since this is a library dependency problem, I doubt there will be much enthusiasm to do such.  Better for me to wait for chimaera I think.20:06
fsmithredhow critical is this system? You might do ok with chimaera or chimaera/ceres20:07
systemdletefsmithred:  Probably NOTHING I *ever* do is really "critical" per se.  Mostly my own stuff.  But I really detest instability.  I'm funny like that.20:07
fsmithredpeople are reporting very stable systems (I'm one of the people)20:08
fsmithredI'm running chimaera xfce on an old thinkpad. Don't do a whole lot with it, but it's working.20:08
fsmithredI do jitsi with it, I ssh into it to check stuff 'cause I'm too lazy to turn around.20:09
systemdleteSo devuan project is waiting on debian to release theirs before devuan releases ours?20:09
systemdlete(summer '21)20:09
fsmithredyeah, we follow them. They have not even begun freeze on bullseye.20:09
fsmithredhowever, most of the forked packages are already forked and working.20:10
fsmithredand the list of forked packages does grow as time goes on. Latest thing is for upstream to drop init scripts from the package.20:11
systemdleteSo, one could say that Bullseye is a moving target (see what I did there?)20:11
fsmithredlol, yeah20:11
systemdlete"Latest thing is for upstream to drop init scripts from the package."   Does this mean debian has agreed to clean up their packaging to support multiple boot and runtime systems?   Or am I reading too much in there?20:13
fsmithredI think you're reading it backward.20:15
systemdleteSo more like "The package drops init scripts for upstream's latest thing?"20:16
fsmithredsome debian devs are not interested in compatibiity with other init systems20:16
systemdleteActually, fsmithred, it is probably surprising that there is any interest there at all!20:16
fsmithredbrb need food20:17
systemdleteSo what did that mean then?20:17
fsmithredwhat?20:53
masonsystemdlete: Have you followed the recent/relevant Debian bug? https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=97507520:58
rwpsystemdlete, Well before the creation of Devuan I decided that pam_systemd.so did things I did not want, and therefore have since removed it from the PAM configuration files.21:57
rwpAmong other things pam_systemd.so is responsible for creating the /run/user/$(id -u) files.21:57
rwpAmong other things pam_systemd.so breaks starting X with a permission denied error.  X tries to start, clears the screen, then gets stuck.21:58
rwpThis might be a problem due to the resulting cgroup non-configuration that I imposed by removing it.21:58
rwpSo I do the Luddite thing and remove it and revert to starting X the old ways.21:59
rwpYMMV!21:59
aitor_hi23:59

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