libera/#devuan/ Tuesday, 2020-12-22

masonapt-get download to get the package(s)00:00
xrogaanhuh, weird. XFCE crashes whenever I update libreoffice.00:39
xrogaanlotsa segfaults00:39
clortxfce had a period of much badness, i don't know if it is over xrogaan01:12
xrogaanwell, the current xfce is still the old one01:13
gnarfaceare you running without swap, xrogaan?01:14
gnarfacesegfaults might mean bad ram blocks, but it also might just be misconfiguration or runtime errors01:15
gnarfacefirst thing that comes to mind when updating libreoffice is that it's large01:15
gnarfaceconsider running some test that uses a similar amount of ram to see if it also segfaults01:15
xrogaanI have some swap. But here it's definitively whenever I update libreoffice.01:16
xrogaanDoesn't break otherwise.01:16
xrogaanso, you mean forcefully have the system swap memory?01:17
xrogaanIt happens sometimes, due to high requirements from games. XFCE still doesn't break then.01:17
xrogaanI suspect the .desktops being changed in bulk.01:18
gnarfacehmmm, interesting01:20
gnarfacehave you tried updating it without Xorg running?01:21
xrogaanNo.01:22
xrogaanBy crashing I mean the desktop part right. It recovers automatically.01:23
xrogaanxfce4-panel segfault, followed by xfdesktop01:24
gnarfacei see01:25
gnarfaceyea, i would definitely try the upgrade again without Xorg or any graphical login prompts running01:25
gnarfaceis this beowulf?01:25
gnarfacei would try the upgrade again without any GUI, and if it completes i would expect about a 5% chance of ever figuring out what went wrong but about a 60% chance of it never happening again either01:26
gnarfaceif it's chimera or ceres you might just have to wait01:27
gnarfaceif you mixed in packages and software from elsewhere though all bets are off01:27
xrogaanI mean, if no graphical thing is running, there won't be any xfce crash.01:28
xrogaanThe upgrade does complete (never said it weren't ;))01:29
xrogaanall my softwares runs fine, it's just xfdesktop biting the dust. Which is somewhat weird.01:29
xrogaanI launch the upgrade, switch to firefox to watch a video. Then the desktop goes away and I momentarily wonder why.01:30
gnarfacei assumed this was a repeating incident because you had to keep retrying the same upgrade01:33
xrogaanxfce4-session doesn't go away. So it detects xfdesktop dying and restart it.01:33
gnarfacethat would be the expected behavior01:33
xrogaanYeah, every time I upgrade libreoffice (which is on the backport channel)01:33
gnarfaceoh hmmm, i wonder if some other stuff from backports snuck in that's causing problems - or alternately, if there's some stuff in backports that you are missing that you need for stability with the other stuff?  either is likely01:34
xrogaanHeh, it's an old behavior.01:37
gnarfaceyea but i'm just trying to help you narrow it down because i would have expected to see this problem here if it's not self-inflicted or very obscure01:39
rwpsystemdlete, I think the command you want: apt-get -o DPkg::Options::=--force-confnew -o DPkg::Options::=--force-confmiss dbus02:59
rwpsystemdlete, Oops.  I mean: apt-get -o DPkg::Options::=--force-confnew -o DPkg::Options::=--force-confmiss install --reinstall dbus03:00
rwpsystemdlete, Not that I know about your specific dbus problem.  But that's how I often reinstall packages in general.03:00
rwpThen afterward (or really at any time) "find /etc -name '*.dpkg-*' -ls" in order to find conffiles that have not been merged.  New or Old.  Whichever.03:01
rwpAnd then I merge or otherwise cleanup the results and remove those files so that things are clean for the next time.03:01
rwpIf the installation installed the new conffile then the previous is saved as a .dpkg-old name.03:02
rwpIf the installation kept the existing file (without --confnew) then the new conffile is saved as a .dpgk-new name.03:02
rwpAnd some specific packages (bind9 I am looking at you) explicitly produce a .dpkg-dist name.03:02
rwpI myself try really hard not to gratuitously modify /etc conffiles and always use a local name in a .d directory when that is available.  To avoid ever needing to merge.03:04
clorthehe03:05
mh4debuanHello!04:08
gnarfacehello, mh4debuan.  if you have questions just ask them.  don't wait for permission.04:10
mh4debuanIn ASCII I had no pulseaudio problems04:10
mh4debuanIn BeoWulf beta I had to start manually starting pulseaudio... I'm trying some internet searches, cleared user home config and then reinstalling atm04:11
Xenguy^^ Looks like the 'Release Notes' issue with PA04:11
Xenguymh4debuan: You need to comment out a line in a config file (documented in the Beowulf Release Notes)04:12
mh4debuanSorry I don't read much cause of v2k04:13
gnarfaceyea, check the release notes, simple fix, a minor indignity of sharing packages with a hostile upstream04:13
XenguyI'm starting to think, as plasma41 mentioned, that we should fork that file, and maybe just make it commented out by default04:13
XenguyIt aligns with Devuan's mission, if it's not too arduous to do04:14
Xenguys/do/maintain/g04:14
mh4debuanAwesome, once that is done, I'm really hoping to get OBS-Studio working, which is an issue with legality of mbed TLS, and Devuan Repo doesn't have the newer OBS Studio04:14
plasma41Xenguy: I think we should delete that file entirely, not just comment it out.04:15
Xenguymh4debuan: You'll have audio in any case, a good start04:15
Xenguyplasma41: Fair point, will leave that to the architects myself, dunno if that is feasible or not04:16
n4dirmh4debuan: i am using librazik with devuan , and it has version 24.03. I haven't got it installed, so don't know if problems might arise04:16
n4dirlibrazik-repos04:16
mh4debuanWhat do yall think of Trump & SolarWinds?04:17
n4dirnothing.04:17
plasma41The only thing that file accomplishes is the very thing we don't want. That's its sole purpose.04:17
Xenguy /join #devuan-offtopic04:17
Xenguymh4debuan: ^^04:17
onefangI think Trump & SolarWinds isn't a topic for a Devuan support channel.  That's why we have #devuan-offtopic.04:18
Xenguyplasma41: Well if nuking it works, I personally don't see why not, but wiser minds than mine will prevail I expect04:18
Xenguy.oO( Very well, as you wish )04:22
golinuxPlease dom04:26
golinux't make forking and maintaining someone else's problem.04:27
XenguyWhat's the best approach golinux ?04:27
golinuxLotsa folks have ideas but few actually do.  It's annoying.04:27
golinuxLean how to maintain packages if it's your idea04:28
golinuxLearn04:28
* Xenguy defers to plasma41 in this case...04:29
golinuxThat's a general comment not pointed at you personally.04:29
golinuxI do also.04:29
XenguyIt's the FOSS way, fair point04:29
onefangPlasma41 is already working on that I think.04:29
XenguyEven better04:30
onefangOr someone is.  lol04:30
Xenguysomeone:  Give me a shout if you need help = )04:31
mh4debuanThanks for help with PulseAudio04:34
XenguyYay04:34
rrqonefang: I think there's an apt-panopticon instance needing some love...05:26
onefangI know, but I'm an apt-panopticon developer needing more icecubes...05:27
* onefang kicks it anyway.05:27
* onefang clears out a few GB of old historical data while I'm there.05:38
mh4debuanLOL man - apt-panopticon with a sense of Patriotism / aka loving Neighbors like falun Gong NTD News06:56
mh4debuanGod bless Ian Murdock's soul06:57
linearainhow do i download devuan source code?17:01
Jorillinearain: I think on the git store: https://git.devuan.org17:02
Joril*from17:05
IanJDo you rely entirely on upstream packges from debian or do you have your own packages too?18:13
masonIanJ: Both.18:15
IanJI just saw a request for inclusion of libressl dating back to 2014 which hasn't yet made it.18:16
IanJhttps://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=75451318:16
masonWell. The latter, re-parsing.18:16
masonIanJ: Having more folks comfortable with Debian packaging would be useful. We need more people to do the work.18:16
IanJHappy to do it if it will be inluded.18:17
IanJI'm not familiar with packaging but I can certainly give it a go.18:17
masonIanJ: https://wiki.debian.org/HowToPackageForDebian18:21
IanJI was reading the docs for creating packages where it said to check Prospective packages and found it there.18:21
IanJWould the package be for debian or devuan though, reading that thread debian didn't seem to be very interested.18:22
masonIanJ: Both ideally, Devuan if Debian doesn't take an interest.18:22
IanJOk18:22
IanJI'm surprised after heartbleed noone insisted on it.18:23
fsmithredIanJ,  https://git.devuan.org/devuan/documentation/src/branch/master/maintainers/PackagingGuide.md18:28
IanJThanks18:29
XenguyLooks like a little light reading :^)18:43
IanJYeah :/18:46
XenguyNot meant as a criticism, but like most man pages, including more 'examples' might make it more digestible to newbies18:48
IanJSeems to point me to git clone unstable branch and install a bunch of packages to set up a development environment.18:54
fsmithredThat is correct. If the source is not already debianized, those instructions might not be enough.19:01
IanJ"clone a copy of the relavent repository from git.devuan.org/devuan"19:03
IanJI guess I want Devuan only.19:04
IanJas a package category19:04
IanJI'm not really sure on the relevant repository.19:05
IanJpersonally I'm using Beowulf but the docs seem to suggest to do it for unstable.19:05
fsmithredO19:06
fsmithredI'm not sure what that means19:06
fsmithredusually when we fork a package, we clone it from salsa.debian.org19:06
fsmithredbut what you want is not in debian or devuan19:06
IanJUnfortunately this doesn't exist in debian.19:06
IanJyeah :/19:07
fsmithredis the source on a git somewhere?19:07
fsmithredhttps://www.libressl.org/ looks like there are a few options for source code19:09
IanJI downloaded it as a tarball but https://github.com/libressl-portable/19:10
masonIanJ: https://wiki.debian.org/HowToPackageForDebian really does have the answers you want19:29
masonI wouldn't steer you wrong.19:30
IanJThanks, I'm reading that now.19:32
IanJare we using underscores or dashes between package name and version now?19:34
n4dirunderscore it seems19:35
n4dirls /var/cache/apt/archives seems to show my memory is right19:36
IanJok thanks19:36
IanJI've seen conflicting info, in the man page for dh_make it suggests -19:36
masonWhen in doubt, look to precedent.19:37
IanJI now have a debianized libressl_3.3.1orig.tar.xz19:47
IanJlibressl_3.3.1.orig.tar.xz19:47
masonIanJ: The other bit is to get on the relevant mailing lists for libressl as you'll want to be right on top of security issues with a package that critical. It might also make sense to solicit others to work on it as a team so there's no SPOF.19:56
masonIanJ: Eventually we'd like to be a part of the security community, and that'll let us have easier access to information about necessary corrections.20:00
IanJDoes this look right: https://82.46.16.105/V/Mv34uW20:03
IanJI guess I should put something useful in the description.20:04
IanJIn the unstable version of devuan would you want the latest development release or latest stable release?20:24
masonIanJ: Probably both.20:25
masonIanJ: With names indicating which is which.20:26
IanJok, is there a specific format for that to follow?20:26
masonIanJ: Hrm, not sure where it exists in policy. Let me look.20:34
masonIanJ: https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debian-reference/ch02.en.html#_debian_package_file_names20:35
masonand https://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-controlfields.html#s-f-version20:37
rwpDifferent maintainers have different opinions on which version should be in unstable.20:51
rwpIf you like Stable releases then Unstable is the alpha-beta release for the next Stable release.20:51
rwpIn which case one should package the upstream Stable release into Unstable, let it flow through the suites, and end up in Stable.20:52
rwpIf you hate Stable releases and like Rolling releases then Unstable is the daily bleeding edge build suite.20:52
rwpIn which case one should package the upstream Unstable release into Unstable, and update it often and block it from ever going into Stable.20:53
rwpAnd there are endless debates each way about which strategy is the best one.20:54
rwpAnd also there is the issue of issuing security patches.  One should consider that process too.20:55
fsmithredthe progression from unstable to testing to stable is automatic. And nothing migrates out of any of those except when it gets replaced/updated20:55
rwpRight!  So right now in Debian the bash maintainer is packaging bleeding edge releases.  We just went through 5.1rc1, rc2, rc3, and so forth, breaking us differently with each release.20:56
fsmithredany packages that are new to devuan and not from debian go into experimental20:56
rwpThe idea being that people running Unstable are the ones who have signed up to test those releases.20:56
fsmithredyeah, I'm glad somebody else does that.20:57
rwpYou are welcome! :-/20:57
rwpThe rc1 and rc2 broke me but rc3 seems acceptable with some less critical bugs.20:57
fsmithredI do have chimaera on a laptop, and it seems fine.20:57
rwpChet is of the belief that he works hard on a new set of features, and therefore wants to release them now, and will deal with the bugs newly introduced later.20:58
fsmithredthat seems to go with the common advice - release early, release often20:58
rwpI would prefer to see the release candidates distributed so that people can test it, but then deal with the bug reports of newly introduced bugs before making it an actual release.20:59
fsmithredit keeps the testers from getting bored20:59
fsmithredyeah, it's nice if you can test before it's in the repo20:59
fsmithredwe should be in OT for this20:59
rwpThis is discussion but it does deal with Devuan Stable in a main way...21:00
fsmithredyeah, but this is the support channel21:00
rwpOk. :-)21:00
n4dir"the only thing you can say for sure about a package in unstable that it worked on the machine of the maintainer" Or such21:01
systemdleterwp:  LOOOOOVE that Perl::Module=Syntax !!!22:34
systemdleteNothing clumsy going on there!   Hehehheheh22:34
fsmithredhave you figured out how to translate that to debian package names?22:35
rwpsystemdlete, Yet I think it is all coded in C++ these days.  Nothing I have any doing regarding it.  I am just a user of it.22:38
rwpTo be clear even though I wrote thousands of lines of C++ back in the day that was the old C++.  I would never advocate writing in the new C++ today.22:38
systemdletefsmithred?  My comment was in response to the syntax rwp gave ME.   I was merely commenting on it.  I know that X::Y will be something like perl-x-y in package names.22:48
systemdlete(I was being a bit snarky there, sorry all...)22:48
fsmithredyeah, I missed the beginning of that conversation22:48
fsmithredrealized that kinda late22:49
systemdletenp.   I was just giving rwp a little trouble, that's all.   rwp has been very helpful to me.22:50
systemdleterwp:  I agree.   I prefer the java language syntax because I think it is a bit cleaner and clearer.22:51
rwpfsmithred, The beginning of that conversation was just past 30KB ago and has just now rolled off my scrollback horizon of 30KB autotruncation.22:53

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