libera/#devuan/ Thursday, 2020-12-24

Guest9has anyone tried devuan/kFreeBSD01:57
Guest9i'm thinking of doing that but i'm not sure if it works01:57
gnarfaceGuest9: haven't tried it but i'm curious too. lemme know what you find out./01:59
rwpI am also interested to know if that works.01:59
Guest9ah yeah02:00
Guest9so if i migrate from debian buster what exactly changes02:00
gnarfacewhat i'm primarily curious about is if it works well enough to use packetfilter in place of of iptables or nftables02:00
Guest9i don't really know any of the technical details of what happens so i'm not sure02:01
gnarfacea bunch of systemd stuff gets ripped out02:01
rwpGuest9, Docs on that: https://www.devuan.org/os/documentation/dev1fanboy/en/buster-to-beowulf02:01
Guest9thanks02:01
Guest9it seems like it'd be better to change to debian/kFreeBSD first before switching to devuan02:03
rwpHmm...  I could make arguments either way.02:04
gnarfaceGuest9: level of difficulty is gonna be related to what you have installed already, typically minimal, headless installs are easiest to upgrade02:05
gnarfaceGuest9: should work in every situation but some people have had to uninstall certain packages first02:05
rwpI am NOT using any of GNOME, Network Manager, Pulse Audio, cgroups, or others and so for me it doesn't seem difficult.02:06
gnarfaceGuest9: (in one rare case it was actually the running kernel package that needed to be uninstalled and reinstalled before reboot, which caused a lot of people a lot of undue stress, but i think that one got fixed)02:06
rwpAnd in the past for some Desktop Environments it was a lot easier to purge KDE off for example before the upgrade and then install it again afterward.02:06
Guest9i'm using xfce and i can't really think of anything i'd be missing so02:07
Guest9idk02:07
rwpXFCE works fine.  But I have only installed it afterward and not migrated through with it previously installed.02:07
gnarfacestuff like swapping out udev/eudev and systemd-logind/elogind can cause some package dependency loops in some cases that you have to manually massage out, that's all02:08
rwpNormally for me I am running i3 as a window manager without a DE (Desktop Environment) installed.02:08
gnarfacejust stay connected here with another machine while you do it and we can help you through it02:08
rwpI am a big advocate for using 'etckeeper' package to keep version history of /etc in git.02:09
gnarface(if you used backports packages, the version matching can be wrong and they'll look newer when they're not, so you have to remove them manually to upgrade, that type of thing)02:09
rwpThen I can purge off packages without any stress at all about losing working configuration.  Because it is all in git for later reference.02:09
rwpAnd therefore when I get into problems I simplify by purging off packages aggressively.  And then afterward installing them back on.02:10
gnarfaceyea, you don't need to really install etckeeper but you should definitely at least backup /etc/ first02:10
Guest9on a separate partition?02:10
gnarfacejust anywhere it won't get overwritten02:10
Guest9alr02:10
gnarfacea usb key or whatever is fine02:10
rwpA copy of /etc for later reference would definitely be enough to avoid questions later.02:10
gnarfaceit won't take much space02:10
rwpDo you have a second system to stay connected on IRC?  Then make a copy of it there.02:11
gnarfacethe upgrade process shouldn't (and almost never will) replace config files you've edited, but it's not always easy to know what changes you should keep or not02:11
Guest9alr02:12
rwpdpkg puts new files as .dpkg-new or .dpkg-old and so before I upgrade I clean up all of those left over files first: find /etc -name '*.dpkg-*' -ls02:14
rwpThen after the upgrade I look at those files again.  And merge and cleanup anything that is needed afterward.02:14
gnarfacei run them through emacs merge :-/02:14
rwpEmacs!  FTW!02:14
gnarfaceM-x ediff-merge-buffers02:15
rwpTherefore except for something that will break networking for example I tend to always select the new incoming package maintainers conffile version for everything.02:15
Guest9will i still be able to use apt?02:15
rwpBecause then I look at all of the files afterward with that find command above and then merge and cleanup everything afterward.02:15
rwpThat way I get the new files in the new form after the upgrade.02:15
rwpapt?  Yes.02:15
gnarfaceGuest9: yes, they didn't remove anything other than systemd and a few things that they couldn't afford to fork and wouldn't run without it02:15
Guest9oh i was mainly talking about debian/kfreebsd02:16
rwpapt calls dpkg under the hood as the engine.  That's why I mentioned what dpkg does.  But we all use one of the apt command line tools.02:16
Guest9i thought that i'd have to use the ports system02:16
gnarfaceGuest9: oh, from what i've read the debian kfreebsd kernel is supposedly fully compatible with the existing linux userspace environment; that's why they bothered doing this02:16
Guest9ah02:17
rwpYou could...  But first you would need to install FreeBSD! :-)02:17
gnarfaceGuest9: you should be able to use 100% debian userspace as before02:17
Guest9ok good02:17
gnarfaceGuest9: but that's where stuff at the border piques my curiosity - such as packetfilter02:17
rwppf would be a very interesting use case.  I like the idea.  That might make for a really interestingly excellent firewall router device.02:18
gnarfaceGuest9: (so far my observations of people who understand packetfilter and people willing to use debian other than me results in a venn diagram of two circles that don't overlap)02:18
rwpI've not used pf myself either but people who do say really good things about it.02:19
Guest9i'm pretty new to linux myself02:19
Guest9i know a lot of basic commands and i know how to use vi02:19
Guest9so uh02:19
Guest9lol02:19
gnarfacewell good luck to you02:20
gnarfacedinner time for me02:20
Guest9yeah02:20
rwpAnd on the other hand Linux keeps rolling new version of it's networking.  ipadw, ipchains, iptables, nftables, and the changes just keep rolling on...02:20
Guest9i was just curious if anyone had tried devuan/kFreeBSD02:20
Guest9i'll come back when i can do the install02:20
Guest9i'm a bit busy with schoolwork02:21
rwpGuest9, Right now you have a sample size of 2.  And neither of us have.  Out of a user base of many thousands.  I am sure others have.02:21
Guest9that's true02:21
rwpBasically you were in the coffee shop with the laptop and turned to the other two people sharing the table.  And we thought it was an interesting question too.02:21
XenguyGuest9: If it were me I'd just do a fresh install, but then I tend to be risk-adverse02:42
Guest9i'm not sure if installing debian/kfreebsd is a good idea03:07
Guest9it wasn't even released for debian jessie03:07
masonGuest9: I've mucked with it. Only issue for me was it doesn't support UEFI at present.03:18
Guest9ah that sucks, i use a uefi pc03:19
masonGuest9: You'd have to use CSM.03:19
masonI can see the appeal of course. If you have questions, join #debian-kbsd on OFTC. They're fairly active.03:20
fsmithredor have another linux installed to manage grub.03:26
Guest9rwp, what do you use instead of pulseaudio?04:08
rwpALSA has always worked very well for me.  Pulse Audio has too often not worked until I uninstalled it.04:30
clorti see a schism between those who want linux to be their developer 'romper room' and greybeards who want it to be solid04:48
gnarfaceit has always been that way, but keep that part of the discussion in #devuan-offtopic04:51
furrywolfthe nice thing about linux is it can be both.  also, greybeards are often the most adventuresome developers.05:01
MinceRthe less nice thing about Linux is that it will be neither, and instead it will be the new windows05:22
golinuxOe Winmac05:23
golinuxOr05:23
golinuxShould be in offtopic05:23
unixbsdwhere to find Cups Wrapper on DEVUAN?06:45
unixbsdI need /usr lib cups filter lpdwrapper.. programm.06:51
rrqthere's cups-bsd for cli printing (lpr)06:59
* enyc meows07:09
* digdug_ bows11:05
clorthey digdug_ - is there a decent open-source digdug clone11:09
digdug_great question, not that i'm aware of ...11:23
digdug_:)11:23
digdug_i just did a fresh install of devuan into virtualbox (xfce) and when i go to settings > display, the dialog appears for a split-second and then goes away11:26
digdug_other than that, everything is going great, and it's nice to have a distro which is both lightweight and works out of the box for someone who is not a gnu/linux nerd11:27
clortyes12:09
clorti don't know about virtualbox (xfce)12:09
clortdid apt just get faster handling of database and installes?12:45
djphclort: no?12:46
clortok maybe it's kernel 5.10 doing better ext4 now12:49
clortcause apt operations just got like 1.5x faster here on phone12:49
djphdunno :)12:54
digdug_in devuan xfce, my ide isn't getting ctrl+f7 keypress when i do it12:59
digdug_is something overriding it in default install?12:59
gnarfaceclort: depends on what kernel you switched from, but there was a mmcblk/flash performance issue fixed sometime soon before that13:07
gnarfacedigdug_: dunno about the ctrl+f7 thing, but the thing about missing display settings might either be a virtualbox issue, or just a missing package (that might be the same issue too)13:08
gnarfaceclort: (i don't think it was specific to any particular filesystem)13:09
digdug_thanks, gnarface, any idea what package it might be or which logfile to look at?13:09
gnarfacedigdug_: package name would probably start with xfce13:10
gnarfacedigdug_: the log you want to look at would be the xorg log, either at ~/.local/share/xorg/Xorg.0.log or /var/log/Xorg.0.log depending on your configuration13:10
gnarfacedigdug_: apt-cache search [regexp]13:11
gnarfacedigdug_: being virtualbox and to do with display settings though might expose permissions issues13:14
digdug_gnarface: well, you were right that it has to do with vbox, and the log file is the right one as well14:55
digdug_however, i installed the extensions, and now it is working14:55
gnarfacecool15:01
digdug_here is what i found in the log:15:02
digdug_http://qdb.us/txt/90/5b/905bf636f64d59b9c7d5db2a891915ce387c90c5.txt15:02
saciozansami15:28
saciozBefore it gets too late , to all of you a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year ...15:29
n4dirdo check if a laptop can to bluetooth, will i look at lspci? If yes, what am i looking for?15:35
koollmanmost likely to be listed in lsusb15:36
koollmandmesg | grep -i blue, if you are lucky ;)15:36
n4dirwondering why lsusb ...15:41
koollmann4dir: because many bt adapters are usb device even when internal15:57
n4dirhmm. Perhaps this laptop has no bluetooth16:00
n4dirblueman says something like no adapters found16:01
n4dirbut shouldn't it already complain when turning bluetooth on?16:01
clortyou'd think so yes16:18
clorti found a nice c++ and allegro digdug clone digdug_16:19
clortit's not a bad effort, some badness in the screen setup, and a couple of poorly implemented gameplay issues16:20
clortalso it amuse me when a game originally 64kB takes multimegabytes now16:21
nemoclort: heh. I imagine there's a digdug for some of those "virtual" computers out there that still takes a few kilobytes16:21
clortthere's one for the pico8 but i don't have that emu running16:22
clortright now allegro borks on the droid4, works fine on jetson nano though16:22
clortin case anyone wants to fix that16:22
nemoclort: https://tic80.com/play16:24
clortthat side doesn't render in dillo :/16:32
nemoodd. it renders in firefox with noscript and umatrix blocking16:33
nemolet's see how it renders in something even more minimalistic16:33
nemohm... isn't too bad in w3m either16:34
clortdillo needs some work on float css tags16:35
nemoah16:35
nemobeen over a decade since I've used dillo16:36
n4dirdo it as long it is still there !16:36
nemon4dir: heh. just haven't had any enormous need for it16:49
nemon4dir: my old laptop had 96MiB of RAM and I used it more then16:49
nemoI do appreciate the benefit of multiple reference implementations of web standards. not sure if dillo is getting the love it needs for me to trust it though16:50
nemoactually even on that old laptop, Seamonkey was pretty usable16:50
n4diri am not sure dillo still gets mainained16:51
nemoso that boils down to "I'm safe online 'cause no one would be bothered to design or deploy exploits for it"16:52
nemowhich I guess is possible, although if any were created, checking for them and invoking them would be pretty much zero cost.16:52
phoggn4dir: netsurf is a sufficiently light alternative16:52
n4dirit is. bit not in the repos anymore16:52
n4diri use falkon. not really light16:53
phoggah, hadn't noticed. I've been building it from source for a while.16:53
n4diri failed :-)16:54
nemo$ eix -c www-client/* > temp.txt16:56
nemohttps://m8y.org/tmp/temp.txt16:56
clorti'm finding that the people who make sites needing heavy browsers are less and less people i want to be reading16:58
nemoclort: yeah... I rarely whitelist sites in noscript, and I do a surprising amount of browsing in w3m16:58
nemoclort: twitter decided to kill off their HTML only website, and I was like... welp. that's probably good for me anyway.  there's always nitter or spoofing google bot UA\16:59
nemo(although they serve a ton of junk to google)16:59
* clort sends christmas greetings from the space alien temple20:46
mason#devuan-offtopic welcomes you22:20
JackFrostplasma41: 1. Add a drop-in config file in /etc/X11/Xsession.d/ that sets GTK_CSD=1.  2. Set /Gtk/DialogsUseHeader to '0'.  3. Use https://github.com/Xfce-Classic/libxfce4ui-nocsd (packaged in https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/+archive/ubuntu/experimental)23:54
plasma41JackFrost: thanks23:56

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