Guest9 | has anyone tried devuan/kFreeBSD | 01:57 |
---|---|---|
Guest9 | i'm thinking of doing that but i'm not sure if it works | 01:57 |
gnarface | Guest9: haven't tried it but i'm curious too. lemme know what you find out./ | 01:59 |
rwp | I am also interested to know if that works. | 01:59 |
Guest9 | ah yeah | 02:00 |
Guest9 | so if i migrate from debian buster what exactly changes | 02:00 |
gnarface | what i'm primarily curious about is if it works well enough to use packetfilter in place of of iptables or nftables | 02:00 |
Guest9 | i don't really know any of the technical details of what happens so i'm not sure | 02:01 |
gnarface | a bunch of systemd stuff gets ripped out | 02:01 |
rwp | Guest9, Docs on that: https://www.devuan.org/os/documentation/dev1fanboy/en/buster-to-beowulf | 02:01 |
Guest9 | thanks | 02:01 |
Guest9 | it seems like it'd be better to change to debian/kFreeBSD first before switching to devuan | 02:03 |
rwp | Hmm... I could make arguments either way. | 02:04 |
gnarface | Guest9: level of difficulty is gonna be related to what you have installed already, typically minimal, headless installs are easiest to upgrade | 02:05 |
gnarface | Guest9: should work in every situation but some people have had to uninstall certain packages first | 02:05 |
rwp | I am NOT using any of GNOME, Network Manager, Pulse Audio, cgroups, or others and so for me it doesn't seem difficult. | 02:06 |
gnarface | Guest9: (in one rare case it was actually the running kernel package that needed to be uninstalled and reinstalled before reboot, which caused a lot of people a lot of undue stress, but i think that one got fixed) | 02:06 |
rwp | And in the past for some Desktop Environments it was a lot easier to purge KDE off for example before the upgrade and then install it again afterward. | 02:06 |
Guest9 | i'm using xfce and i can't really think of anything i'd be missing so | 02:07 |
Guest9 | idk | 02:07 |
rwp | XFCE works fine. But I have only installed it afterward and not migrated through with it previously installed. | 02:07 |
gnarface | stuff like swapping out udev/eudev and systemd-logind/elogind can cause some package dependency loops in some cases that you have to manually massage out, that's all | 02:08 |
rwp | Normally for me I am running i3 as a window manager without a DE (Desktop Environment) installed. | 02:08 |
gnarface | just stay connected here with another machine while you do it and we can help you through it | 02:08 |
rwp | I am a big advocate for using 'etckeeper' package to keep version history of /etc in git. | 02:09 |
gnarface | (if you used backports packages, the version matching can be wrong and they'll look newer when they're not, so you have to remove them manually to upgrade, that type of thing) | 02:09 |
rwp | Then I can purge off packages without any stress at all about losing working configuration. Because it is all in git for later reference. | 02:09 |
rwp | And therefore when I get into problems I simplify by purging off packages aggressively. And then afterward installing them back on. | 02:10 |
gnarface | yea, you don't need to really install etckeeper but you should definitely at least backup /etc/ first | 02:10 |
Guest9 | on a separate partition? | 02:10 |
gnarface | just anywhere it won't get overwritten | 02:10 |
Guest9 | alr | 02:10 |
gnarface | a usb key or whatever is fine | 02:10 |
rwp | A copy of /etc for later reference would definitely be enough to avoid questions later. | 02:10 |
gnarface | it won't take much space | 02:10 |
rwp | Do you have a second system to stay connected on IRC? Then make a copy of it there. | 02:11 |
gnarface | the upgrade process shouldn't (and almost never will) replace config files you've edited, but it's not always easy to know what changes you should keep or not | 02:11 |
Guest9 | alr | 02:12 |
rwp | dpkg puts new files as .dpkg-new or .dpkg-old and so before I upgrade I clean up all of those left over files first: find /etc -name '*.dpkg-*' -ls | 02:14 |
rwp | Then after the upgrade I look at those files again. And merge and cleanup anything that is needed afterward. | 02:14 |
gnarface | i run them through emacs merge :-/ | 02:14 |
rwp | Emacs! FTW! | 02:14 |
gnarface | M-x ediff-merge-buffers | 02:15 |
rwp | Therefore except for something that will break networking for example I tend to always select the new incoming package maintainers conffile version for everything. | 02:15 |
Guest9 | will i still be able to use apt? | 02:15 |
rwp | Because then I look at all of the files afterward with that find command above and then merge and cleanup everything afterward. | 02:15 |
rwp | That way I get the new files in the new form after the upgrade. | 02:15 |
rwp | apt? Yes. | 02:15 |
gnarface | Guest9: yes, they didn't remove anything other than systemd and a few things that they couldn't afford to fork and wouldn't run without it | 02:15 |
Guest9 | oh i was mainly talking about debian/kfreebsd | 02:16 |
rwp | apt calls dpkg under the hood as the engine. That's why I mentioned what dpkg does. But we all use one of the apt command line tools. | 02:16 |
Guest9 | i thought that i'd have to use the ports system | 02:16 |
gnarface | Guest9: oh, from what i've read the debian kfreebsd kernel is supposedly fully compatible with the existing linux userspace environment; that's why they bothered doing this | 02:16 |
Guest9 | ah | 02:17 |
rwp | You could... But first you would need to install FreeBSD! :-) | 02:17 |
gnarface | Guest9: you should be able to use 100% debian userspace as before | 02:17 |
Guest9 | ok good | 02:17 |
gnarface | Guest9: but that's where stuff at the border piques my curiosity - such as packetfilter | 02:17 |
rwp | pf would be a very interesting use case. I like the idea. That might make for a really interestingly excellent firewall router device. | 02:18 |
gnarface | Guest9: (so far my observations of people who understand packetfilter and people willing to use debian other than me results in a venn diagram of two circles that don't overlap) | 02:18 |
rwp | I've not used pf myself either but people who do say really good things about it. | 02:19 |
Guest9 | i'm pretty new to linux myself | 02:19 |
Guest9 | i know a lot of basic commands and i know how to use vi | 02:19 |
Guest9 | so uh | 02:19 |
Guest9 | lol | 02:19 |
gnarface | well good luck to you | 02:20 |
gnarface | dinner time for me | 02:20 |
Guest9 | yeah | 02:20 |
rwp | And on the other hand Linux keeps rolling new version of it's networking. ipadw, ipchains, iptables, nftables, and the changes just keep rolling on... | 02:20 |
Guest9 | i was just curious if anyone had tried devuan/kFreeBSD | 02:20 |
Guest9 | i'll come back when i can do the install | 02:20 |
Guest9 | i'm a bit busy with schoolwork | 02:21 |
rwp | Guest9, Right now you have a sample size of 2. And neither of us have. Out of a user base of many thousands. I am sure others have. | 02:21 |
Guest9 | that's true | 02:21 |
rwp | Basically you were in the coffee shop with the laptop and turned to the other two people sharing the table. And we thought it was an interesting question too. | 02:21 |
Xenguy | Guest9: If it were me I'd just do a fresh install, but then I tend to be risk-adverse | 02:42 |
Guest9 | i'm not sure if installing debian/kfreebsd is a good idea | 03:07 |
Guest9 | it wasn't even released for debian jessie | 03:07 |
mason | Guest9: I've mucked with it. Only issue for me was it doesn't support UEFI at present. | 03:18 |
Guest9 | ah that sucks, i use a uefi pc | 03:19 |
mason | Guest9: You'd have to use CSM. | 03:19 |
mason | I can see the appeal of course. If you have questions, join #debian-kbsd on OFTC. They're fairly active. | 03:20 |
fsmithred | or have another linux installed to manage grub. | 03:26 |
Guest9 | rwp, what do you use instead of pulseaudio? | 04:08 |
rwp | ALSA has always worked very well for me. Pulse Audio has too often not worked until I uninstalled it. | 04:30 |
clort | i see a schism between those who want linux to be their developer 'romper room' and greybeards who want it to be solid | 04:48 |
gnarface | it has always been that way, but keep that part of the discussion in #devuan-offtopic | 04:51 |
furrywolf | the nice thing about linux is it can be both. also, greybeards are often the most adventuresome developers. | 05:01 |
MinceR | the less nice thing about Linux is that it will be neither, and instead it will be the new windows | 05:22 |
golinux | Oe Winmac | 05:23 |
golinux | Or | 05:23 |
golinux | Should be in offtopic | 05:23 |
unixbsd | where to find Cups Wrapper on DEVUAN? | 06:45 |
unixbsd | I need /usr lib cups filter lpdwrapper.. programm. | 06:51 |
rrq | there's cups-bsd for cli printing (lpr) | 06:59 |
* enyc meows | 07:09 | |
* digdug_ bows | 11:05 | |
clort | hey digdug_ - is there a decent open-source digdug clone | 11:09 |
digdug_ | great question, not that i'm aware of ... | 11:23 |
digdug_ | :) | 11:23 |
digdug_ | i just did a fresh install of devuan into virtualbox (xfce) and when i go to settings > display, the dialog appears for a split-second and then goes away | 11:26 |
digdug_ | other than that, everything is going great, and it's nice to have a distro which is both lightweight and works out of the box for someone who is not a gnu/linux nerd | 11:27 |
clort | yes | 12:09 |
clort | i don't know about virtualbox (xfce) | 12:09 |
clort | did apt just get faster handling of database and installes? | 12:45 |
djph | clort: no? | 12:46 |
clort | ok maybe it's kernel 5.10 doing better ext4 now | 12:49 |
clort | cause apt operations just got like 1.5x faster here on phone | 12:49 |
djph | dunno :) | 12:54 |
digdug_ | in devuan xfce, my ide isn't getting ctrl+f7 keypress when i do it | 12:59 |
digdug_ | is something overriding it in default install? | 12:59 |
gnarface | clort: depends on what kernel you switched from, but there was a mmcblk/flash performance issue fixed sometime soon before that | 13:07 |
gnarface | digdug_: dunno about the ctrl+f7 thing, but the thing about missing display settings might either be a virtualbox issue, or just a missing package (that might be the same issue too) | 13:08 |
gnarface | clort: (i don't think it was specific to any particular filesystem) | 13:09 |
digdug_ | thanks, gnarface, any idea what package it might be or which logfile to look at? | 13:09 |
gnarface | digdug_: package name would probably start with xfce | 13:10 |
gnarface | digdug_: the log you want to look at would be the xorg log, either at ~/.local/share/xorg/Xorg.0.log or /var/log/Xorg.0.log depending on your configuration | 13:10 |
gnarface | digdug_: apt-cache search [regexp] | 13:11 |
gnarface | digdug_: being virtualbox and to do with display settings though might expose permissions issues | 13:14 |
digdug_ | gnarface: well, you were right that it has to do with vbox, and the log file is the right one as well | 14:55 |
digdug_ | however, i installed the extensions, and now it is working | 14:55 |
gnarface | cool | 15:01 |
digdug_ | here is what i found in the log: | 15:02 |
digdug_ | http://qdb.us/txt/90/5b/905bf636f64d59b9c7d5db2a891915ce387c90c5.txt | 15:02 |
sacioz | ansami | 15:28 |
sacioz | Before it gets too late , to all of you a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year ... | 15:29 |
n4dir | do check if a laptop can to bluetooth, will i look at lspci? If yes, what am i looking for? | 15:35 |
koollman | most likely to be listed in lsusb | 15:36 |
koollman | dmesg | grep -i blue, if you are lucky ;) | 15:36 |
n4dir | wondering why lsusb ... | 15:41 |
koollman | n4dir: because many bt adapters are usb device even when internal | 15:57 |
n4dir | hmm. Perhaps this laptop has no bluetooth | 16:00 |
n4dir | blueman says something like no adapters found | 16:01 |
n4dir | but shouldn't it already complain when turning bluetooth on? | 16:01 |
clort | you'd think so yes | 16:18 |
clort | i found a nice c++ and allegro digdug clone digdug_ | 16:19 |
clort | it's not a bad effort, some badness in the screen setup, and a couple of poorly implemented gameplay issues | 16:20 |
clort | also it amuse me when a game originally 64kB takes multimegabytes now | 16:21 |
nemo | clort: heh. I imagine there's a digdug for some of those "virtual" computers out there that still takes a few kilobytes | 16:21 |
clort | there's one for the pico8 but i don't have that emu running | 16:22 |
clort | right now allegro borks on the droid4, works fine on jetson nano though | 16:22 |
clort | in case anyone wants to fix that | 16:22 |
nemo | clort: https://tic80.com/play | 16:24 |
clort | that side doesn't render in dillo :/ | 16:32 |
nemo | odd. it renders in firefox with noscript and umatrix blocking | 16:33 |
nemo | let's see how it renders in something even more minimalistic | 16:33 |
nemo | hm... isn't too bad in w3m either | 16:34 |
clort | dillo needs some work on float css tags | 16:35 |
nemo | ah | 16:35 |
nemo | been over a decade since I've used dillo | 16:36 |
n4dir | do it as long it is still there ! | 16:36 |
nemo | n4dir: heh. just haven't had any enormous need for it | 16:49 |
nemo | n4dir: my old laptop had 96MiB of RAM and I used it more then | 16:49 |
nemo | I do appreciate the benefit of multiple reference implementations of web standards. not sure if dillo is getting the love it needs for me to trust it though | 16:50 |
nemo | actually even on that old laptop, Seamonkey was pretty usable | 16:50 |
n4dir | i am not sure dillo still gets mainained | 16:51 |
nemo | so that boils down to "I'm safe online 'cause no one would be bothered to design or deploy exploits for it" | 16:52 |
nemo | which I guess is possible, although if any were created, checking for them and invoking them would be pretty much zero cost. | 16:52 |
phogg | n4dir: netsurf is a sufficiently light alternative | 16:52 |
n4dir | it is. bit not in the repos anymore | 16:52 |
n4dir | i use falkon. not really light | 16:53 |
phogg | ah, hadn't noticed. I've been building it from source for a while. | 16:53 |
n4dir | i failed :-) | 16:54 |
nemo | $ eix -c www-client/* > temp.txt | 16:56 |
nemo | https://m8y.org/tmp/temp.txt | 16:56 |
clort | i'm finding that the people who make sites needing heavy browsers are less and less people i want to be reading | 16:58 |
nemo | clort: yeah... I rarely whitelist sites in noscript, and I do a surprising amount of browsing in w3m | 16:58 |
nemo | clort: twitter decided to kill off their HTML only website, and I was like... welp. that's probably good for me anyway. there's always nitter or spoofing google bot UA\ | 16:59 |
nemo | (although they serve a ton of junk to google) | 16:59 |
* clort sends christmas greetings from the space alien temple | 20:46 | |
mason | #devuan-offtopic welcomes you | 22:20 |
JackFrost | plasma41: 1. Add a drop-in config file in /etc/X11/Xsession.d/ that sets GTK_CSD=1. 2. Set /Gtk/DialogsUseHeader to '0'. 3. Use https://github.com/Xfce-Classic/libxfce4ui-nocsd (packaged in https://launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/+archive/ubuntu/experimental) | 23:54 |
plasma41 | JackFrost: thanks | 23:56 |
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