libera/#devuan/ Sunday, 2021-01-10

e3d3What is the advised way to disable sysv startup applications; sysv-rc-conf, update-rc.d or ?01:24
fsmithredyes01:28
fsmithredeither way01:28
e3d3okay, thanks. After 2 hours reading about it, I found the same MX Linux advise 1 second after asking here. Good to have it confirmed. Thanks.01:31
rwpe3d3, There are multiple opinions available on the matter.  I know of at least four different methods and I use at least two of them myself.01:57
rwpBetter advice might be had if we knew what daemon you wanted to have installed but disabled.  Since that by itself is an odd combination.01:57
e3d3rwp: I guess those 2 are not the ones I mentioned above01:57
e3d3rwp: I want mdadm, saned and bluetoothd disabled01:58
rwpFor mdadm it would probably make more sense to remove/purge it from the system.01:58
rwpFor saned and bluetoothd are those pulled in by some DE dependencies?01:59
e3d3I guess so but am not sure. I have XFCE, and both are not enabled as startup applications (GUI list)02:00
rwpFor avahi that is Depended upon but I want disabled I put an "exit 0" in /etc/default/avahi-daemon to prevent it from running.02:00
rwpPutting an "exit 0" into any of the /etc/default scripts completely disables the entire init script from all actions.02:01
e3d3I have not looked into that dir, yet/never. Is the reason that you advise removing mdadm because its not in the /etc/default dir ?02:05
e3d3And is it true that via init.d disabled services are started again when updating the dependencies ?02:05
rwpI always say simpler is better.  Reducing the install base is always simpler.02:05
e3d3I agree completely02:05
rwpMy XFCE install has sane-utils and xsane installed but not saned.  And has libbluetooth3 installed but not bluetoothd.02:06
e3d3I'll remember that, thanks02:10
rwpBack in the old days users of Red Hat systems installed from cdrom often had the problem of DLL version Hell problems when trying to install something later.02:11
rwpSo the user culture became one that when they had the cdrom in their hand then install 100% of everything that was on it all at once.02:11
rwpHowever now in Devuan with network installation if one has networking then it is trivial to install anything at any time.02:11
rwpBecause that was the only time when everything matched.  But that required installing lots of cruft that was never used.02:11
e3d3I use mostly the shell & Emacs, most other things I consider distraction. Long ago I used minimal or netinstall but I don't have the energy anymore to keep reading about everchanging technical details, just to configure some 'secundairy' stuff, so I use XFCE desktop some years now02:16
e3d3Last 2-3 years I booted once in 1-3 months, then kill 2 services because I was too lazy to read about the init system. But because I installed Devuan on a laptop that I want to shut down at least once a day, I better disable unwanted services instead of killing.02:22
e3d3Do you know the answer on my other question; that upgrading a dependency will start a disabled service again ?02:23
rwpSorry, I didn't see that particular question.  Upgrading _should not_ re-enable a disabled service.02:26
rwpIf the service is disabled by modifying /etc/default/foo then that is a conffile and changes there are required to be preserved, unless you say 'Y'es install maintainers version at package installation time.02:26
rwpIf a service is disabled by modfifying the /etc/rc?.d/S*foo symlinks then must leave at least one symlink behind to indicate that it is installed and configured.02:27
rwpSee https://paste.debian.net/1180399/ for the particular paragraph that describes this.02:27
rwpI have often seen people remove all symlinks and then complain that they were re-installed so that is a common error.02:28
rwpLeave at least one /etc/rc?.d/K*foo symlink somewhere so as to indicate that it has been installed but has been locally customized.02:28
rwpDoes that cover things for you?  Questions?02:29
e3d3sorry but I need to read above more than once to understand it, so my reaction need some time02:29
rwpNo problem!  I am also doing accounting simultaneously so might be slow to notice and respond myself.02:29
e3d3I think I understand what you said; upgrading foo will reinstall a removed symlink foo, so I better modifying the setting.02:36
rwpe3d3, It will only reinstall a symlink if *ALL* of the symlinks are removed.02:37
e3d3you mean for all runlevels ?02:37
rwpIt will not modify symlinks if they are locally modified, removed, changes, as long as at least one symlink remains.02:38
rwpRight.  For all runlevels.  find /etc/rc?.d/ -name '*foo'02:38
rwpIf all of those are removed then it appears as if it is a first time pristine installation and therefore the postinst will install symlinks.02:38
rwpBut if at least one remains to be found then it won't touch them if they are different from the defaults.02:39
e3d3so upgrading foo checks the symlinks in all runlevels02:40
rwpYes.02:40
e3d3I'm now in runlevel 2 but I guess I should disable bluetoothd and saned in all runlevels, not ?02:41
rwpThe difference between an "exit 0" in /etc/default/foo is that disables all init script actions.02:41
rwpRemoving /etc/rc[2345].d/S??foo avoids starting it but it will still be killed if manually started.02:41
rwpSubtle difference but still a small difference.02:42
rwpHave you ever used a different runlevel than 2?02:42
rwpAnd I mean "ever" in all of the years you have been using the system?02:42
rwpI consider myself a rather old-school user of things and even I can't remember the last time I used a different runlevel for any reason.  (other than shutdown)02:43
e3d3I normally don't check my runlevel, but "know" that different distro/OS can use different runlevels, and I also don't know much about init systems at all02:43
rwp(shutdown passes through runlevel 6 internally)02:43
e3d30,1 and 6 are told to be common in Linux02:44
rwpSo...  Imagine yourself sitting in front of a university shared server for a hundred all trying to compile their programs to get them done before deadline.02:44
e3d3I do02:44
rwpThat's the environment in which runlevels were imagined.  Runlevel 3 used to be networking and NFS enabled.  Runlevel 0 (or was it 1) was single user mode.02:45
rwpSo one could switch to single user mode to keep anyone from being able to log into the system so that you could do some system administrative task.02:45
rwpLike applying security patches.  Or recovering from someone who had actually compromised the system.  Or ran it out of disk space.  Or whatever.02:45
rwpThen could switch runlevels back to runlevel 3 with networking on and back online without rebooting.02:46
rwpBecause rebooting might take a while to flip those front panel switches to load in the boot loader IPL code to be able to load the next segment off mag tape.02:46
rwpThese days...  Not needed so much.  (shrug)02:46
e3d3I am the only physical user but see many users active on my laptop, and have no clue what the do when I'm not looking, maybe they cross runlevels !?02:48
e3d3nor if multi-user runlevel is required because of root & I02:49
rwpIt's your physical laptop but you see other users using what command?  Try running the "w" command.  Or "who".02:49
e3d3e3d3     :0.0         2021-01-09 18:38 (:0.0)02:50
e3d3 02:50:16 up  8:39,  1 user,  load average: 0.13, 0.16, 0.1102:50
e3d3USER     TTY      FROM             LOGIN@   IDLE   JCPU   PCPU WHAT02:50
e3d3e3d3     :0.0     :0.0             18:38   ?xdm?  55:56   0.03s /bin/sh /etc/xdg/xfce4/xinitrc -- /etc/X11/xinit/xserverrc02:50
rwpSo you have one user and it is you.02:50
e3d3???02:50
e3d3I going to check it on my other primairy distro, 1 moment02:51
rwpAnd it is the xdm (X Display Manager) login starting X graphics for you.  Upon which you might have many terminals.02:51
e3d3I'm confused about that I the only user, or why I thought different02:52
fsmithred'ps aux' will reveal some system users02:53
rwpA long ps listing (ps -efHww or ps aux) would show many processes running users but those are system users not people users.02:53
rwpSystem users are used to be non-root and compartmentalized.  For security reasons.02:53
fsmithred^^^ that02:53
rwpSo for example lightdm is run as the lightdm user.  And bind/unbound is run as a bind/unbound user name.02:54
e3d3I thought indeed because of 'top/htop' listings, not that root, avahi, statd etc where real people, but still real users02:54
rwpAnd www-data runs the web server.  And postfix runs the postfix mailer.02:54
fsmithredthey are users with limited powers02:55
rwpWell...  They are different users.  They are non-root users.  That's the most important thing.  And they are different compartments from each other.  So they can't get out of their boxes.02:55
e3d3I believe you, mostly ;) about this02:56
e3d3so I, e3d3 and boxed companions will normally only stay in runlevel 2 ? And Lightdm only in 0 ?02:58
fsmithredlightdm usually starts in 202:58
fsmithredand 2-5 are the same in debian/devuan02:58
rwpType in "who -r" and it will say 202:58
rwpOh, there is also a "runlevel" command too.  Same thing.02:59
e3d3that is my runlevel02:59
fsmithredthe default runlevel is set in /etc/inittab02:59
rwpI recommend basically doing nothing interesting and just leaving everything at the default runlevel 2.  Don't worry.  Be happy.03:00
e3d3I've read that file to find out which runlevels Devuan uses03:00
e3d3:)03:00
e3d3I wish the same for you03:00
rwpOn Red Hat systems you will find it being runlevel 5 for everything.  But same advice.  Just don't touch it.  Don't worry.  Be happy.03:00
rwpThe only reason to even be aware of it is if you want to not start a daemon then you would need to know that to remove the /etc/rc2.d/S??foo link.03:01
e3d3I asked because with TUI app 'sysv-rc-conf' I can/have to set all runlevels, with rcconf only the current runlevel, if I believe the screenshots03:02
rwpfsmithred, Do you recall the last time you changed to single user mode on a system?  I can't.03:02
fsmithredabout 15 minutes ago03:03
fsmithredand several times a day I do 'init 1'03:03
fsmithredbut that's because I'm testing stuff in a VM and don't want to do a full reboot03:03
rwpHa!  "Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example." --Mark Twain03:03
e3d3:)03:04
fsmithredand I configure Refracta so that the display manager does not run in runlevel 303:04
fsmithredthat way it's possible to boot to console03:04
e3d3display manager in runlevel 3, not 2, like rwp said, if I understand it right03:05
fsmithreddefault setting is for dm to run in 2-503:06
e3d3the multi-user spectrum03:06
fsmithredyeah, but debian makes them all the same03:06
fsmithredredhat and suse have graphical only on 4 and 503:07
rwpOne of these days I am going to get https://github.com/cosmos72/twin/ up and running for the main text console. ;-)03:07
fsmithred2 and 3 are multi-user console only03:07
e3d3rwp: I guess you don't use Emacs ;)03:08
rwpI am in Emacs typing this right now using Emacs-erc. :-)03:08
e3d3rcirc03:08
tuxd3v3 is multiuser + network03:09
rwptuxd3v, That's the classic BSD convention, yes.  But not on Devuan or Debian.03:15
e3d3because something went wrong, I repeat my last thanks for all the friendly help again and wish you all a good day|night.03:18
tuxd3vrwp, yes :)03:22
systemdleteI installed  beowulf on bare hardware on two boxes.  The first one works OK, but the other doesn't.  The desktop comes up with low resolution and doesn't give me options to go higher resolutions.  It's the same machine I am running ascii on, which works fine.  So I am wondering what I need to do to get the desktop working properly.04:32
systemdletevideo is RS780L [Radeon 3000] [1002:9616]04:32
systemdleteDoes this require non-free software?   (I did install that though)04:32
systemdleteI'm guessing I need a certain x11 or xorg driver package or the like04:32
systemdleteOh...04:36
systemdletejust found a wiki page04:36
systemdlete(wiki.debian.org/atihowto04:44
systemdleteWhen running (on ascii) grub-mkconfig, I get error:  "/usr/sbin/grub-probe: warning: Couldn't find physical volume `(null)'. Some modules may be missing from core image.." This occurs multiple times.04:58
systemdleteddg'd this, but I can't seem to get a clear explanation of what this is.04:58
systemdlete(doesn't hint which disk object it is complaining about)04:59
gnarfacesystemdlete: you probably do need firmware-amd-graphics from non-free, yea05:10
systemdleteright, gnarface.   That wiki page spells it all out.05:10
systemdleteSorry to bug you about video drivers again.05:10
gnarfacedunno what that grub error means exactly, but it kinda seems like it's looking for something it sees in the config but not present on the machine05:11
systemdlete"in the config"05:11
systemdlete /etc/grub/* ?05:11
gnarfacethe auto-generated config in /etc/grub.d05:11
systemdleteok05:11
gnarfacethere's also /etc/defaults/grub05:12
gnarfacefor hand edits05:12
gnarfacesorry, /etc/default/grub05:12
systemdletewell, there is almost nothing in /etc/default/grub05:13
systemdleteother than defaults, comments05:13
gnarfacethere is also /boot/grub, i think05:13
gnarfaceunless that's from the old version...05:13
gnarfacethe thing is it's mostly supposed to be auto-generated05:14
systemdletewell /boot/grub/grub.cfg is what I am trying to generate with grub-mkconfig05:14
gnarfaceand you're only supposed to change some variables in /etc/default/grub05:14
gnarfacebut obviously stuff goes wrong sometimes...05:14
gnarfacewas this an upgraded system or a fresh install?05:14
gnarfaceand is there like.... some weird removable drive bays in it or something?05:14
systemdleteI was trying to coerce grub-mkconfig on ascii to "pick up" the new install on the beowulf partition05:14
systemdleteno removable bays -- removed that unit months ago05:15
gnarfacei think i usually just run update-grub as root05:15
systemdleteBut that was never a problem in the past.  It's a Kingwin 4000 that just uses passive connections.05:15
systemdleteAH!05:15
systemdletethank you -- let me try update-grub05:15
gnarfacethe thing you gotta figure out is why it's trying to load "(null)" ... that seems like it's literally missing a variable for a drive name but it's got a boot entry for it anyway or something?05:16
systemdletedang.  Same error messages05:16
gnarfacethere might be other errors somewhere in /var/log05:16
gnarfaceor in dmesg05:16
systemdleteI did have a usb drive plugged in, but even once it is removed, I still get errors from grub-mkconfig (or grub-update)05:16
systemdleteI looked at system logs.  Nothing of interest05:17
gnarfaceweird05:17
gnarfacei got nothing05:17
systemdleteWonder if it is time to use Microsoft Tech:   reboot05:17
gnarfacemaybe missing package is what i'm thinking05:18
gnarfacebut i couldn't guess what05:18
gnarfaceyou could always just use lilo instead05:19
systemdleteWell, could be I guess. But why has this not been a problem until now?  I rarely do this.  I haven't installed a new OS on this box since ascii, and that was a couple of years ago.05:19
gnarfaceyea, i'm really not sure.  i can't recall seeing this before05:19
gnarfacei keep going back to it getting incomplete info it's trying to integrate into the config from somewhere05:19
gnarfacebut where?05:19
systemdleteit is not too important.  The objective here is to move on to beowulf.  So as long as I can get beowulf to boot in the other partition (along with those video drivers working) I'm good.05:19
gnarfacethe most likely culprit would be leftover configs from after an upgrade, but still... never seen this05:20
systemdleteIt would be helpful if *nix utilities would tell the user what specific things they are complaining about.05:20
gnarfacedid you have grub installed to multiple disks/partitions?  maybe it's the grub config on some other block devices that it's picking up?05:20
systemdleteNot sure.05:21
systemdleteI have grub installed to /dev/sd[abc] (it's a RAID1 2 drives + 1 spare.05:23
systemdleteboth ascii and the proposed beowulf partitions are on partitions on those drives05:23
systemdleteFairly simple arrangement I think.05:23
systemdleteAnd those partitions are NOT with lvm or anything fancy.05:24
systemdleteext4 and btrfs05:24
systemdleteI hope that ascii's grub-mkconfig can read btrfs file systems, but idk05:24
gnarfacehmmm, also not using btrfs here05:31
gnarfacegot any empty partitions?05:31
gnarfaceunformatted?05:31
gnarfaceunassigned?05:31
gnarfacei'm really grasping at straws05:32
gnarfacewhen grub doesn't work for me if i can't find a fix readily i often try lilo05:32
gnarfacei used to use it before, so i'm more comfortable with it anyway05:32
systemdleteThe only thing I note that might be relevant is that, while installing beowulf in another partition, I requested to install grub to /dev/sda, b, and c, yet...05:45
systemdletewhen I boot the box, I'm still getting the OLD grub menu.  Now, I think I copied grub.cfg over from the ascii partition.  But not sure if that has anything to do with the grub-mkconfig issue on ascii.05:46
systemdleteheheheh.  Yeah, when all else fails, fall back to simpler things.  I agree.05:46
systemdleteI was a huge fan of LILO until I ran into distros that refused to work with LILO so I was forced to use grub, then grub205:47
qinis there a better solution for getting vaapi stuff working in beowulf? currently am using a symlink for iris_drv_video.so07:51
gnarfacewhat video hardware, qin?09:44
gnarfacei didn't have to make a symlink with nvidia or amd09:45
gnarfaceintel hardware that doesn't support vaapi should be able to use the libvdpau-va-gl1:i386 wrapper lib09:46
gnarfacesorry libvdpau-va-gl1 (not specifically i386 necessarily)09:47
gnarfacenot sure about other issues but in any case the situation is usually specific to the video card driver09:47
gnarfaceand it's supposed to just be a matter of having the right packages installed, though mplayer will also need command-line options09:48
qingnarface: im using intel here, and thanks for the info09:56
systemdleteStill struggling a bit to get beowulf configured satisfactorily.   The main hangup at this point is that os-prober on beowulf is not detecting the other OS's installed.  I was able to copy my ascii's grub.cfg to beowulf, and that works (except it doesn't have beowulf) but I'll still have to do some manual editing.10:16
systemdleteI DDG'd a bit for anything related to os-prober in the past year (because wider time searches returned a lot of probably outdated info).10:17
systemdleteAt any rate, none of what turned up gave me any definitive answers.   os-prober, run directly from the command prompt, returns just the kernels on the local (beowulf) partition.10:18
systemdleteI tried cross-mounting the ascii partition but no better.10:18
systemdleteI don't recall this much drama with grub.cfg generation in the past, but maybe I have overlooked a step.10:21
fsmithredsystemdlete, os-prober won't find encrypted systems. If that's the case, create entries in /etc/grub.d/40_custom13:15
bruHello, I need to set the memlock limit on my system with sysvinit, what's the best way to do so?16:25
bruNevermind, I chose to add a ulimit line on my program's init file16:40
tarzeau§br17:31
tarzeaubru: and that worked? i like nohang a lot17:31
brutarzeau: Still haven't tried it yet, lemme see with a quick reboot17:45
brutarzeau: Yep, adding "ulimit -l 65535" (as in 65535 KiB) before the running command on the start function (mpd_start in my case) worked perfectly17:53
tarzeauhow much memory do you have?17:56
bru16GB plus 8GB swap. The setting is just for a single program anyways, not a global rule17:57
tarzeauyeah i just wonder how you exhaust that much memory17:57
tarzeaui'm a fan of zram btw17:57
bruIt wasn't my idea to set that much memlock, it's a recommendation from the mpd manual: https://www.musicpd.org/doc/html/user.html#error-failed-to-initialize-io-uring17:59
bruHmm, I haven't heard of zram, is it specially for managing RAM across processes?17:59
tarzeau  ~18:27
tarzeau.~.18:27
tarzeaubru: it's for compressed memory18:27
brandflake11Hey hey, does anyone have any good reading on using sysvinit?19:59
ErRandirStart with /etc/init.d/README20:23
Xenguybrandflake11: sysv-rc-conf seems to be a handy tool also21:48

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