libera/#devuan/ Tuesday, 2021-01-12

e3d3fsmithred: maybe it is because I've put the music-folder in the root of the iso ?00:00
fsmithreddid it give you an error message? Is there a wireless password00:00
e3d3fsmithred: the button "switch off/on wifi"00:00
fsmithredpresence of a folder shouldn't matter, but how the iso got repacked might make a difference00:00
e3d3It didn't give any message and was 'greyed-out'00:00
fsmithredsaw wlan0 in the network manager? You mean where it shows the default interfaces?00:02
fsmithredip a00:02
fsmithredwill show you what interfaces the system sees00:02
e3d3at first I though about mounting the iso, copying it, add music-dir and make a new iso with mkisof, but because I don't want to learn about iso I choose a GUI tool (1 MB install)00:02
fsmithredwhat command does it use to pack the iso? I'll bet it's not the same command that refractasnapshot uses.00:03
fsmithredip a00:03
fsmithreddoes wlan0 show up00:03
fsmithred?00:03
e3d3I save wlan0 in the network manager > preferences > tab 'general settings' > text input field 'wireless interface'. In the live distro this field was blank00:04
e3d3save = saw00:04
fsmithredyou're using network-manager or wicd?00:05
fsmithredopen a terminal and type the following:00:05
fsmithredip a00:05
fsmithredthen press enter00:05
fsmithredtell me if you see wlan0 listed in the output00:05
e3d3'ip a' shows wlan0, but now I'm in the orginal system, not in the snapshot, otherwise I couldn't talk00:05
e3d3I'm using wicd00:07
fsmithredok, good. I know that one.00:07
fsmithredwell, do you know what wireless hardware you have in the different computers? Did you install firmware for all of them that need it?00:07
e3d3I still have the orginal snapshot, but prefer to make only a new one WITH working network00:08
fsmithredyeah, that's a good idea00:08
fsmithreddo you understand that most wireless hardware needs special software installed for it?00:08
e3d3yes, but most live distro's have no problems connecting00:09
fsmithredinstall whatever wireless firmware packages you think you will need00:09
fsmithredmost live distros install non-free by default00:10
fsmithreddebian does not, refracta does not, devuan does or does not depending on how you install it00:10
fsmithredyou started with a Refracta iso or something else?00:11
e3d3It was an understatement that I'm network-dyslectic. I'm so happy that wifi works without spending more than 30 minutes, some sweat & wicd00:11
fsmithredshould not take 30 minutes to install a few firmware packages00:13
fsmithredif you started with a Refracta iso, the firmware packages are in the user's home.00:13
e3d3I have hardware rapports (mostly made with inxi) that tell that I used the ath9k v driver/something but I'm so afrain to mess my whole system due to my panic/crazy reactions00:14
fsmithredath9k should work without extra firmware00:14
fsmithredpretty sure00:14
fsmithredbut you will need to install firmware for other wireless00:14
e3d3fsmithred: I think that 30 minutes for you correspond to 3 sleepless weeks for me00:14
fsmithredThe system you used to make the snapshot has internet?00:15
e3d3other wireless, you mean wireless drivers for all my laptops ?00:15
fsmithredyes00:15
fsmithreddo you know what they need?00:15
e3d3fsmithred: yes, that is this system, Devuan Beowolf00:16
fsmithreddo you know how to enable the contrib and non-free repos?00:16
fsmithreddevuan beowulf00:16
fsmithredcool00:16
fsmithreddo you know how to enable the contrib and non-free repos?00:16
e3d3I normally do such thing with synaptic GUI. (wolf is Dutch for wulf)00:17
fsmithredlol00:17
fsmithredls /home/e3de/firmware.beowulf00:17
fsmithredsorry, I spelled your name wrong00:18
fsmithreddyslectics of the world, UNTIE!00:18
e3d3ls: cannot access '/home/e3d3/firmware.beowulf': No such file or directory00:18
fsmithredok00:18
fsmithredapt install firmware-iwlwifi firmware-realtek00:20
fsmithredstart with those00:20
fsmithredmake a new iso00:20
fsmithredbetter yet...00:20
fsmithredfigure out which ones you really need00:20
fsmithredboot the other computers, run 'lspci' and see what you have for network hardware00:20
fsmithredwrite down the make and model00:20
fsmithredinstall the firmware you need, copy the audio folder to the build system, and make a new snapshot00:21
fsmithreddon't screw around with repacking isos00:21
e3d3so I have to install on my still blinking and fresh smelling Beowulf firmware for other laptops ?00:22
fsmithredyes00:22
fsmithredor...00:22
fsmithredinstall a system inside a Virtual Machine and make the iso in that.00:22
fsmithredso you make it the way you want the live system to be00:23
fsmithreddo the other laptops have ethernet ports, or are they only wireless00:23
fsmithred?00:23
e3d3I also don't like copying my music dir. Its on another partition. And I also don't want to install a VM for it, not until I need it for 'more important' things. My other laptops have also ethernet ports, which I normally only use cq prefer above wifi.00:24
fsmithredif they have ethernet, you can install without the wireless firmware00:25
fsmithredadd the firmware after install00:25
fsmithredcopy the music dir to /home/work/myfs00:25
e3d3I added the audio dir only because I excluded the /media folder in total to avoid excluding all the subdirs except 100:25
fsmithredthen run snapshot again and select the option to re-squash00:25
fsmithredyou have to set the config file to save_work="yes"00:26
fsmithredso that it keeps the filesystem copy00:26
fsmithredthen you can edit the copy and re-squash (make a new iso)00:27
fsmithredare the other laptops very new?00:28
e3d3where can I edit the copy. I just wanted to tell you that all my laptops are considered old00:28
fsmithreddid you try booting the original iso on the other computers? The one before you repacked it00:28
fsmithredok, so you probably don't need firmware-amd-graphics00:29
fsmithredI was wondering about the black screen you mentioned00:29
e3d3no I didn't. I added the audio dir because there so much space left on the DVD00:29
fsmithredyou can edit the copy where I told you:   /home/work/myfs/00:29
e3d3non of my laptops uses uefi, maybe I should have disabled this ?00:29
fsmithredthen run snapshot again, but don't choose the first option, choose the one that says re-squash00:30
fsmithred2. Re-squash and make iso (no-copy)00:30
e3d3option 2: re-squash and make iso (no copy) ?00:30
fsmithredyes00:30
e3d3stop premptively following me00:31
fsmithredlol00:31
e3d3joke I remembered from another channel, without the spelling problems I have00:31
fsmithredif you were to choose the first option, it would wipe out the edits you made00:31
fsmithredby recopying the whole system and deleting any files in the copy that are not in the original system00:32
e3d3:) that would be fun after adding audio dir.00:32
fsmithredyou burned it to a dvd?00:33
e3d3yes00:33
fsmithredok, try this...00:33
fsmithredboot that dvd again in one of the laptops (or both) where it didn't work00:33
fsmithredchoose the boot-to-ram option in the boot menu00:33
e3d3doing it now, on a HP that boot very slowly00:34
fsmithredit will take a couple minutes to boot, but it might work better.00:34
fsmithredthere. You were first that time.00:34
fsmithredbrb00:34
fsmithredback00:41
e3d3hello again; the HP didn't boot, now an Acer laptop is booting to ram00:42
fsmithredwhat did the HP do?00:42
e3d3should a part of a crazy GRUB menu, and then continued with the grub on the harddisk00:43
e3d3should = showed00:43
fsmithredalright. Probably just make a new iso and don't use that other program on it. iso-what?00:44
e3d3I just could read grub, before it disappeared. before this it should a underscore that move to the bottom off a black screen00:44
e3d3isomaster. It seemed respectable according to the stuff I've read about remastering iso's.00:45
fsmithredyeah, but I don't know what it does00:46
fsmithredand it might not know what I do00:47
e3d3a master should know all relevant things00:47
fsmithredlol00:48
e3d3snapshot is bussy with the audio files (ca 2 GB ?)00:48
fsmithredyeah, that'll take some time to copy00:49
fsmithredlonger to squash00:49
fsmithredyou doing this on a laptop?00:49
e3d3hope I have enough memory in that laptop00:49
fsmithreddisk space, not memory00:49
e3d3so yes. I only have laptops, that is no desktop pc00:50
fsmithredwatch your temprature00:50
fsmithredthis is Refracta? if so, run 'sensors' in a terminal00:50
e3d3It looks like it is finished, again with a back screen00:50
fsmithredoh, the old dvd?00:50
e3d3yes, you told "boot that dvd again"00:51
fsmithredyup00:51
fsmithredto ram00:51
fsmithredother thing you could try is booting the failsafe option00:51
e3d3I did also boot to ram00:51
e3d3to bad the adjust screen brightness keys don't work00:52
fsmithredyou think it's just too dark?00:52
fsmithredctrl-alt-F1 (or F2)00:52
fsmithredshould put you on console.00:53
e3d3I hear the fan reacting, but still have the same blackness00:53
e3d3I think that the screen is just to dark, or it turns to that when shutting down00:55
e3d3I'll the failsafe boot00:55
e3d3I'll try the failsafe boot00:55
e3d3I'm woried that I waist your time while maybe it just an isomaster issue00:56
fsmithredI'm gonna go find more food while you play00:57
e3d3bon apetite00:57
e3d3scary; it sounds as if my DVD drive is carving into my desk with this failsave boot option00:59
e3d3(all my dvd drives are waisted to the bone)01:03
e3d3screen had become black again but the dvd drive keeps rattling01:09
e3d3screen stays black, but I can get into tty's (Ctrl-Alt-F1), where it shows error messages; SQUASHFS error and print_req_error01:13
fsmithredoh, cool01:14
fsmithredlook at ~/.xsession-errors01:14
fsmithredand /var/log/Xorg.0.log01:15
e3d3I just shut it down :()01:15
fsmithredyou don't want to know what went wrong?01:15
e3d3no of course not, I only want to know that it did what we want it to do ;) No, I was worried that the drive would explode01:16
fsmithredok01:16
e3d3and I could input anything. The error message continued01:16
e3d3error messageS01:16
e3d3I have 3 other Acer laptop to try with but I think I better try burning another DVD, without using isomaster01:18
fsmithredyeah, that'll help narrow it down01:18
e3d3but I really don't want to install 7 different wifi drivers for all my different laptops, even if I use only 2 normally.01:18
fsmithredthen just install the ones you need01:19
e3d3I have a ralink wifi usb adaptor, that almost all live distro recognize. Maybe I should add only the driver for this, but I'm still (more than) woried that I mess up my wifi on this fresh system, because that would make me complete helpless for a couple of weeks due to irational panick/blindness/etc. Sorry but you can't image my struggle with network knowledge.01:22
fsmithredfirmware-ralink01:22
fsmithredyou won't mess it up01:22
fsmithredI usually add three or four to my own01:23
fsmithredthe devuan live isos have all of the ones that don't require a user agreement01:23
e3d3but this system allready can handle this wifi adapter, although I don't know with what driver. Would installing the ralink-firmware not interfere with my current settings, or require more manual interaction than installing with synaptic >01:24
fsmithredright. They won't interfere with each other01:24
fsmithredthe kernel already has code to deal with hundreds of different pieces of hardware so that it works on everyone's computer.01:25
fsmithredit just uses what it needs to use01:25
e3d3except when I need a wifi driver that is allready installed01:26
e3d3I don't care if it uses a less good driver, so long as I don't have to worry to end up in the swamp01:26
fsmithredralink won't work at all without the firmware01:27
e3d3I just see that firware is allready installed for ralink and atheros, and some other wifi-hardware01:29
e3d3My default Devuan repository has no other ralink stuff01:30
fsmithredyou installed those?01:31
e3d3no01:31
e3d3of course not :)01:31
fsmithredrefracta does not have any nonfree firmware installed01:32
e3d3but I'm on Devuan01:32
fsmithredah, ok01:32
fsmithredyou started with the desktop-live?01:32
e3d3I install with that, and now running the installed version from harddisk01:33
fsmithredok, try this to see what's installed01:33
fsmithreddpkg -l |grep firmware01:33
fsmithreddon't paste the result here01:34
e3d3I was just asking that01:34
e3d3I see 16 firmware's installed01:35
e3d3including ralink, atheros and misc-nonfree01:35
fsmithredright01:35
fsmithredso that's all set. Unless you need broadcom drivers.01:36
e3d3(with the comming vacin from microsoft I worry less for free software)01:36
e3d3I don't think I need broadcom drivers, at least not on my primairy 2 laptops, so I don't worry about that much01:37
e3d3so if I make a snapshot and uncomment:  netconfig_opt="ip=frommedia"01:41
e3d3will my wifi password be stored on the snapshot ?01:41
fsmithredI forget01:41
fsmithredman live_config should say01:42
fsmithredsorry, man live-config01:42
fsmithredlive-boot01:43
fsmithredit will use /etc/network/interfaces01:43
fsmithredif you want to save wireless settings, you have to keep some other files.01:44
e3d3searching for 'passw' got no match, maybe it is in live-boot, -builds or -tools01:45
e3d3iface lo inet loopback01:45
fsmithreduncomment that and it will save the settings. Says so in the comments in the config file.01:45
fsmithredip=frommedia01:46
fsmithredwhy you looking for passw?01:46
e3d3because I'm woried that my password will be copied to the snapshot01:46
fsmithredyeah, it will01:47
e3d3and other people can read it.01:47
fsmithredwith uncommenting ip=frommedia01:47
fsmithredit will save the wicd settings in /var/lib/wicd/configurations01:47
e3d3I don't want that. I want wifi connection but supply the password again after the snapshot booted01:47
fsmithredif you don't save the password in wicd, then it won't be there01:47
fsmithredwicd lets you add the password each time, or do you have to remove it?01:48
e3d3so I must unset saving the wifi password (can't remember I saved it) before making the snapshot, uncomment the ip=frommedia line in the refracta config, and I'm good to go01:49
e3d3I only supplied my wifi password once.01:49
fsmithredwhy?01:49
fsmithredif you're removing the settings, why are you trying to save the settings?01:49
e3d3after that I only have to click on the connect buttons after each boot01:50
fsmithredyou setting a static ip address for ethernet?01:50
fsmithredand then it will fail if you don't give it the password01:50
e3d3I have not used ethernet on this new installed Devuan yet01:50
fsmithredso you will have to do exactly what you would do without ip=frommedia01:51
e3d3but then my wifi password will be readable for other is they get my snapshot disk01:51
e3d3is = if01:51
fsmithredyour wifi password won't be there01:51
fsmithredunless you use ip=frommedia01:52
fsmithredthat's what it's for01:52
e3d3now I don't understand it anymore :(01:52
fsmithredok01:52
fsmithredif you would like to save your wireless settings, uncomment ip=frommedia01:53
fsmithredbut you already said you don't want to save them01:53
fsmithredso do not uncomment that line01:53
e3d3I didn't uncomment the ip... line in my snapshot, and couldn't connect.01:53
fsmithredfor a different reason I would guess01:53
fsmithredwicd should see nearby wireless signals01:54
fsmithredshow you the ssid01:54
e3d3but the button 'switch on/off wifi' was greyed out01:54
e3d3I tried the other drivers in wicd preferences01:55
fsmithredif the laptop has a physical switch, that might need to be turned on01:55
fsmithredor check rfkill to see if it needs to be turned on with that01:55
e3d3I don't have the rfkill command01:56
fsmithredoh, it's also possible that you're running into a eudev bug01:56
rrqdoesn't wicd require seting "wlan0" or is that setting preserved?01:56
fsmithredwhich is why I suggested booting to ram - that's a way to avoid it01:56
fsmithredI believe he said it was set to that01:56
e3d3and also no physical switch for wifi on this laptop01:56
rrqfsmithred: "wlan0" is also a non-default set up of wicd, stored in one of it conf files... and my q was wether that conf file is preserved while the connection conf is not?01:59
e3d3I typed wlan0 in wcid, just a wild guess, and it worked and was preserved between reboots. In the snapshot its wicd was wlan0 also preserved, but I couldn't use it01:59
fsmithredyes. interface is stored in /etc/wicd/01:59
rrq.. manager-settings.conf01:59
fsmithredthat gets copied to the snapshot01:59
fsmithredyeah01:59
rrqconnection in ../wireless-settings.conf02:00
rrqso the first one should be saved and the second should not02:00
fsmithredand you booted from a burned dvd when you couldn't use wireless? That's on the same computer you used to make the snapshot?02:01
e3d3yes02:01
fsmithredbut you didn't boot to ram that time, right?02:01
e3d3also 100% correct02:01
fsmithredtry that02:01
fsmithredwhich iso did you use?02:02
e3d3okay, but than I have to disconnect from IRC.02:02
e3d3what do you mean with 'which iso'02:02
e3d3I used the iso that isomaster created from the snapshot02:03
fsmithredwhich devuan iso? the official desktop-live?02:03
fsmithredwell, try booting to ram on that same computer and see if wireless works02:03
fsmithredif it does, I can tell you how to fix it on the next snapshot02:04
fsmithreddo any of these laptops boot from usb?02:04
e3d3I didn't use a Devuan iso. I started refracta snapshot from the on harddisk installed Devuan.02:05
e3d3All off my laptops can boot from usb02:05
fsmithredhow did you install devuan to the hard disk?02:05
e3d3with the full 64bits Devuan iso burned to DVD, and installed from the live system02:06
fsmithredok, try boot to ram on same machine02:06
fsmithrednow or later. Whichever you want.02:07
e3d3Okay, I'm going to login to IRC from another laptop, and reboot this machine with the snapshot in RAM02:09
e3d3the load to ram is bussy with copying the extra audio. Luckaly I didn't fill the DVD to the max.02:22
fsmithredhow much ram you have?02:23
e3d3I think 4 GB on that machine.02:23
fsmithredyour iso is smaller than that?02:25
e3d3hey, I see a mouse cursor, on a black screen with a white and 2 grey bars. When I move the mouse it jumps instead of smooth moving, and nothing else seems to work02:25
fsmithredgive it a little longer02:25
fsmithredsometimes desktop loads slow02:25
e3d3okay, you're right, I see the icon from the menu appearing, that is promising02:27
fsmithredhow big is your iso?02:27
fsmithred3GB? 3.5GB?02:27
e3d3I think a little 3.2 GB if I remember well02:28
fsmithredso you'll have just barely enough left to run the system02:28
fsmithreddon't open a web browser!02:28
e3d3more than halve of it is the added audio dir02:28
e3d3okay, I won't. Its is still loading the desktop, I now also see the clock on the panel/taskbar02:29
fsmithredthe glacier is advancing02:30
e3d3suddenly it stopped. I could only read 'something ... display' before it opens the login screen, with my username filled in, something I normally don't see02:31
e3d3can I login now ?02:31
fsmithredok, maybe ran out of ram. Try login02:31
fsmithredif not, try ctrl-alt-F202:32
e3d3they input fields disappeared but the red background remains, maybe it needs again a long time, or should I try ctrl-alt-f202:33
fsmithredyeah, drop to console02:34
fsmithredlog in as root when you get there02:34
e3d3how do I do that here02:36
fsmithredhere?02:36
e3d3in tty02:36
fsmithredI thought we were talking on a computer different from the one running the dvd02:36
e3d3sorry, you are right. I talk from a HP laptop, but mean how do I login on the snapshot tty02:37
fsmithredif it says login:  then you log in02:38
fsmithredif user is already logged in, the su -02:38
e3d3I normally only login once after booting, with a display manager, or CLI prompt that waits for login02:38
fsmithredand give root password02:38
fsmithredcrtl-alt-F2 and tell me what you see02:38
fsmithredit either wants you to log in or you are logged in02:39
fsmithredor it doesn't work02:39
e3d3I see on the first line 'Linux Devuan 4.19 .... no waranty'02:39
e3d3then: Cannot open display "default display"02:39
fsmithredthat was F1 or F2?02:40
e3d3Not sure if that is because I didn't know where my control key is. I swapped it with the capslock key, but was unsure if this setting was already active02:40
fsmithredso you're saying you can't get to console?02:41
e3d3I have to press many times ctrl-alt-F2 before the tty opens, with above content02:41
fsmithredok, forget it. You're probably out of ram02:42
e3d3if this is the tty, ctrl-alt-f7 brings me back to the 'reset' login screen02:42
fsmithredcan you put isos on usb instead of burning dvd?02:42
fsmithredok02:42
fsmithredthat might make testing easier02:43
fsmithredalso, make an iso that works the way you want before you add the audio files02:43
fsmithredthen make another snapshot with the audio files02:43
e3d3no, all my usb-stick are 'occupied'. I have data, or multisystem installed (a multiboot program). Maybe I have space left to install the snapshot on one of those multiboot-usb's but can't clean any of them right now.02:44
fsmithredyou might need to install eudev from beowulf-proposed-updates (or wait until that version moves in to beowulf)02:44
e3d3what does this eudev do ?02:44
fsmithreddevice manager02:45
fsmithredthe non-systemd version of udev02:45
e3d3I try building a complete new snapshot, now with excluding all subdirs except the audio from another partition, instead of adding it later with isomaster, but still are confused if I need to uncomment the ip... line in the snapshot config, to get wifi working.02:49
fsmithredno02:49
fsmithredyou need to uncoment that line ONLY if you want to save your network settings02:50
fsmithredi.e. save your wireless passwords in the iso02:50
e3d3I don't know what I want to save from my network sessions, except no password, so I won't uncomment the line.02:51
fsmithredthere is nothing else to save unless you added something to /etc/network/interfaces02:51
fsmithredI was not suggesting that you use isomaster to add the audio02:52
fsmithredI suggested that you leave the audio out to make a smaller iso so that testing will be faster02:52
fsmithredand then you might be able to boot the dvd to ram on that machine02:52
fsmithredif it works, then you can make another snapshot with the audio files02:53
e3d3:) I just wanted to use my DVD optimal02:54
e3d3I need to think about some creative art with all those useless DVD's02:56
fsmithredget another usb stick02:56
fsmithredyou can re-use it every time02:56
e3d3I allready have to much. Last week I started cleaning my USB-sticks, harddisk and other storage media, and decided I first need 1 clean OS; Devuan, to manage all the things I want to keep, move etc02:59
e3d3I'm not a distrohopper anymore but still have trouble to let all those prehistoric OS go, specially since the Linux world becomes more and more poisoned.03:02
e3d3when it show the distribution name that will appear in the boot menu, I think I can edit this name before proceeding, not ?03:08
fsmithredyeah, that's why it's there03:08
e3d3good. I though maybe it was just meant as notice and that I shouldn't edit it like I did before.03:10
e3d3snapshot is running / copying filesystem03:10
e3d3I didn't uncomment the network line, nor included extra audio files.03:11
e3d3I have still audio on the usb-sticks :)03:11
e3d3I normally try putting live or install systems on one of my multiboot usb-sticks, but prefer having snapshots on DVD.03:14
e3d3before I made live/install snapshots for MX Linux and PCLinuxOS using distro-tools. MultiSystem is great for multiboot usb. All other programs (e.g. unetbootin) I tried are absolute ridiculus compared to multisystem.03:24
furrywolfI did and apt-get -d dist-upgrade, and it's done downloading...  any last minute things I should know before running it without -d?03:24
furrywolfs/and/an03:24
* furrywolf takes that as a no, so should hopefully soon be on beowulf!03:28
e3d3sorry I can't help you, maybe you should wait a little longer untill the experts come back03:29
e3d3furrywolf: ^^03:29
gnarfacefurrywolf: if you run into package conflicts, don't panic and nuke the thing before asking for help.03:47
gnarfacethough, the beowulf upgrades have been smoother than the ascii upgrades here03:48
gnarfaceyou might not have trouble03:48
furrywolfthe list looks reasonable, with 22 removed, none of which look like things I want, and only 2 held back.03:49
* furrywolf is reading the changelog notices now03:51
furrywolfso far nothing important other than borgbackup's huge list of dire warnings, which is entirely unsurprising given my past experiences with it...03:52
gnarfaceafterwards if you're using a graphical login, i think you may still have to swap one or two of the dependencies to a non-default option to fix minor things like the suspend button on the login screen03:53
gnarfaceit depends on what window environment and graphical login pair you're using though03:53
gnarfacethe headless upgrades have been pretty seamless other than the manual config merges03:54
gnarface(apache stuff changed a lot)03:54
furrywolfgrrr, it's trying to install pulseaudio.03:55
gnarface --no-install-recommends03:55
furrywolfhow to I do a dist-upgrade without installing a specific package?03:55
gnarfaceadd that to the cmdline^03:55
gnarfacetry it with --no-install-recommends, otherwise you have to pin out03:55
furrywolfI'm using icewm, and don't remember what display manager I'm using, as I only ever see it for 0.5s once every couple months.  lol03:55
gnarfacepin blocking example: https://paste.debian.net/1180755/03:57
gnarfacefurrywolf: ^03:57
gnarfacePackage can be any name+glob03:57
gnarfaceset origin to "" and priority to -103:57
furrywolfI hit ctrl-c and broke apt-get badly.03:57
gnarfacecan't have been that badly03:58
gnarfaceunless...03:58
furrywolfspecifically, I killed the interface, but it's still running in the background and dumping too much to the terminal to interact with it.  lol.  *looks what to kill*03:58
gnarfacethere was ONE cache file i managed to corrupt once and then apt-get wouldn't re-run again until i deleted it, i forget what it was named though03:58
gnarfaceit might be easier to let it install pulseaudio then just remove it afterwards04:00
e3d3fsmithred: I burned a fresh snapshot to DVD(+RW), without audio and with almost the same result after booting as before. Now in wicd the 'switch off/on wi-fi' button is not greyed out anymore and shows 'switch off wi-fi', but I still see no wifi networks. Clicking on the refresh button don't change this. I think we better forget about it for now.04:00
furrywolf--no-install-recommends is no longer trying to install pulseaudio.04:00
gnarfaceok good04:00
furrywolfalso not installing 200MB of other stuff that I'll probably miss later, but oh well.04:01
* furrywolf is waiting for the reading changelogs step, which takes several minutes04:01
furrywolfit would seem it does not take advantage of multiple cores.04:01
furrywolfnow for the long wait and hoping nothing breaks.  :)04:04
gnarfacei doubt you'll miss any of it04:04
gnarfaceand after the upgrade i'd still carefully check to make sure that pulseaudio and avahi-daemon didn't sneak back in somehow04:05
furrywolfwe should make them go away for chimera.  heh.04:05
gnarfacenah, i'm sure someone is still using them04:06
gnarfacenot me, mind you, but i'm sure they're useful to someone04:06
furrywolfat a minimum, they should never be installed as a recommends.04:06
furrywolfof course, rebuilding every package with a recommends:pulseaudio would suck...04:07
furrywolfdoes apt have a "this package should never be installed as a recommends" flag?04:07
gnarfaceother than the pinning mechanism, i don't know04:07
* furrywolf watches random youtube while waiting04:13
furrywolfI'm going to need to reboot after this, aren't I?04:15
gnarfacefor the kernel upgrade, yea04:16
gnarfacethe newer graphical stack is very unlikely to work with the old kernel if you're using nvidia or amd hardware04:17
furrywolfI don't think the kernel is being upgraded.04:17
gnarfaceyou sure?04:17
gnarfaceif not you might just need to log all the way out and restart the graphical login manager04:17
furrywolfI'm using 4.19 from bpo currently.04:17
gnarfacebut you should have a kernel upgrade unless you were using the backports kernel from the old release04:17
gnarfaceoh, yea04:18
gnarfacethey'll be about the same04:18
gnarfaceyou probably want to get on the stable one04:18
furrywolfwhat I want is a newer one to see if it fixes suspend crashing 1 in 50 times or so.04:18
gnarfacewell, one that's compiled for the beowulf versions of the libraries should have better luck04:20
gnarfacebut i'm gonna be honest with you04:20
gnarfacethe nvidia hardware doesn't resume from suspend cleanly, it never did, and i doubt they'll ever figure out why not04:20
gnarfacethere's a beast in there they're all afraid of04:20
gnarfacei would just leave it on04:21
furrywolfI have ATI video04:21
furrywolfthe suspend issues I all tracked down to USB.04:21
gnarfaceoh, you can probably just disable power management on those individual USB devices with a module option04:21
furrywolfW: APT had planned for dpkg to do more than it reported back (13848 vs 13855).04:21
furrywolf   Affected packages: libreoffice-common:amd6404:21
gnarfacethey won't sleep but then they'll work04:21
furrywolfthat's a new message.04:21
gnarfaceinteresting04:22
gnarfacei've seen it before but i forget what causes it04:22
gnarfaceyou can probably just purge all the libreoffice packages and try again04:22
* furrywolf runs again to see messages that were lost in scroll04:22
gnarfacemaybe there were some other backports packages snuck in there?04:22
furrywolfnothing to do.  hrmm.04:22
gnarfaceyea i would just purge libreoffice and start over04:23
gnarfacedownload it clean04:23
gnarfacenot until after the rest of the upgrade finishes though04:23
furrywolfit all finished.  that message was at the end.04:23
gnarfacehmm04:24
gnarfaceweird04:24
gnarfacewere you fully upgraded on ascii before the beowulf upgrade?04:24
furrywolfwould installing linux-image-5.9 be a bad idea?04:24
furrywolfno04:24
gnarfacelinux-image-5.9 from ceres?  or from beowulf-backports?04:25
furrywolflinux-image-5.9.0-0.bpo.2-amd6404:26
gnarfacewhat i would do is first install the 4.19 that you get with linux-image-amd64, then reboot to it so you can remove the 4.19 from ascii-backports, then install the beowulf-backports 5.9 after that (rebooting once more)04:26
furrywolfwhy would that be useful?04:27
furrywolfI never remove old kernels.  lol04:27
gnarfacethat way you have a stock stable kernel built against the current system lib versions to reboot to, to avoid gremlins in testing if you for some reason have to do something that isn't working right with the 5.9 beowulf-backports kernel (rare but possible - this is advice from prior experience)04:28
gnarfacei'm just helping you avoid Eris04:28
* furrywolf installs both at once04:29
gnarfaceit's worthwhile to keep some of the older stable kernels, but i'm wary of the value of a corresponding backports kernel from a previous release04:29
gnarfacecorresponding/conflicting04:29
gnarfacefrom jessie->ascii i think it was that there was a filesystem corruption possible in ext4 if you used the newer kernel driver with the older userspace tools for something like fsck or resize04:30
gnarfacethat type of thing could happen again04:31
gnarfacekeep rootfs backups04:31
furrywolfI did a full backup before upgrading.  took TWO DAYS.  stupid false-advertising shingled drives...04:31
gnarfaceoh, i hate that04:31
furrywolfI also have my regular backup, but I don't trust borgbackup one bit, especially not between versions.04:33
furrywolfWarning: Setting GRUB_TIMEOUT to a non-zero value when GRUB_HIDDEN_TIMEOUT is set is no longer supported.04:35
furrywolfgrrr, looks like grub changed things.04:35
furrywolfalso, installing two kernels at once causes stupidity.  going to remove and re-install 5.904:36
gnarfacewell, it might not default to the one you want, or the one you think it would, if you didn't remove the ones i told you to04:38
masonThe kernel you can install is not the real kernel.04:38
gnarfacei should have actually said that though04:38
gnarfacesome of my hardware here (nvidia again) did require the backports kernel *and* drivers to work properly04:39
gnarfaceat least everything from the 1000 series and later04:39
furrywolfI despise nvidia, and do not plan to ever own anything of theirs.04:39
furrywolftheir constant history of fucking over open-source coders while pushing their binary bugware is not acceptable.04:40
gnarfacewell, but it might be the same for certain amd/ati cards - you might need their firmware package from backports too04:40
gnarfaceit's called firmware-amd-graphics04:40
gnarface(in non-free)04:40
furrywolfI think mine predates such things.  heh.04:40
gnarfacethat's possible04:41
furrywolfo01eg:00.0 VGA compatible controller: Advanced Micro Devices, Inc. [AMD/ATI] Madison [Mobility Radeon HD 5650/5750 / 6530M/6550M]04:41
gnarfacei knew because the graphical login didn't even successfully launch04:41
furrywolfstupid nick auto-completion.  lol04:41
gnarfacebut it's possible mesa could fail over to software-rendering, so it'd seem to work but just be curiously sow04:41
gnarface*slow04:41
furrywolfhrmm, if I edit /etc/default/grub, I just need to run update-grub, right?  I commented out one of the conflicting lines, and it still complains.04:44
gnarfaceyea you should just need to re run update-grub i think... the only other thing that could be relevant is update-initramfs04:45
furrywolfI still get the same warning despite commenting out one of the two timeouts.  heh.04:45
gnarfaceafter boot you mean, or when running update-initramfs?04:46
furrywolflooks like I need to explicitly set it to 0.  hrmm.04:46
gnarfacei mean update-grub?04:46
furrywolfupdate-grub04:46
gnarfaceoh, you're trying to kill the timeout04:46
gnarfacei would set it to 304:46
furrywolfno, I'm trying to NOT kill my 0.1 second hidden timeout.04:46
furrywolfapparently the way you specify this has changed.04:47
gnarfacegrub giveth and grub taketh away04:47
gnarfacebut you know what hasn't changed a lot?  lilo04:47
furrywolfheh04:47
furrywolfdoes lilo even work on modern systems?04:47
furrywolfalso, lilo makes me sad, because I miss lilo the person.04:48
furrywolflooks like they want you to use GRUB_TIMEOUT_STYLE=hidden now.04:49
gnarfaceit's patched and up-to-date and my experience is that the version in the repos has better hardware support than grub04:49
furrywolfok, I think that's everything I can think of before a reboot.04:49
* furrywolf quits firefox nicely instead of killing it, in case there's session changes between versions04:50
* furrywolf waits 10 minutes, because quitting firefox takes just as long as starting firefox, for reasons only mozilla knows04:50
gnarfaceonly other thing is if you want to change the swap partition's UUID for resume from hibernation, you'd need to run update-initramfs04:50
furrywolfewww.  I got a new top version in the upgrade apparently, and it now uses "MiB", because political correctness or something.04:51
gnarfaceheh04:51
gnarfacels output single-quotes file and folder names with spaces in them now too04:51
gnarfacebut you can just add -N to your alias for it04:52
gnarfacethere are a couple other annoying little changes to text output, i forget exactly04:52
furrywolf....  please tell me that wasn't to fix all the scripts that were parsing LS's output and having security holes.04:52
furrywolf(you know, the ones that should have been using find, shell globs, or anything other than parsing ls)04:53
gnarfacefuck i dunno, it was bad enough imagining it's so that double-click highlight in terminals worked right04:53
furrywolflol04:53
furrywolfbbl, time to see if it broke.04:53
gnarfacegood luck04:53
furrywolfwell, it booted!04:56
gnarfacethat's good04:56
furrywolfmy mouse isn't usable, though.04:56
gnarfacedoh, xorg.conf changes04:56
gnarfacei forgot about those04:56
furrywolfthe acceleration is about 100 times what it should be.04:56
gnarfacethey overhauled some behavior in ways that changes what you do and don't need to define04:56
furrywolfand generally...  wrong.04:56
gnarfaceyea it might not even be using the same driver as it was before04:57
gnarfaceyou might want to manually change it back04:57
gnarfacebut you can probably also just turn off the acceleration04:57
furrywolfI have custom acceleration settings, that were correct before.04:57
gnarfacein /etc/X11/xorg.conf?04:57
furrywolfin xorg.conf.d.04:58
furrywolfcommenting it out now04:58
furrywolfbrb04:58
randygcommenting it out entirely made my pointer unusably slow - having to reposition about ten times to go from one side of the screen to the other.  I picked a random number that was smaller than my previous number, and it's...  not right.  but usable.  will need fine-tuning.05:01
randygsomething has changed in the acceleration algorithm.  it accelerates differently, not just more or less.05:01
gnarfacei forget exactly, but they changed how corekeyboard and corepointer behave at a fundamental level, and they also changed what driver takes the mouse by default05:02
gnarfacethere are 3 where there used to be one05:02
fluffywolfit's the same libinput driver, since my custom settings are still being applied.05:02
gnarfacehmmm05:02
fluffywolfthere's some change in the algorithm it's controlling, though.05:02
gnarfaceoh, so you weren't using the old mouse driver still05:02
gnarfacehmmm, sounds annoying05:02
fluffywolfpointer-unusably-slow is standard on this model laptop - everyone has that issue, so you have to play with acceleration settings.  you'd think they could fix the driver default, but....05:03
gnarfacethere might be more than one setting now?05:03
gnarfacecheck to see if there's multiple settings like poll rate and speed, separate from acceleration05:03
fluffywolffirst I need to see if firefox still works, so I can google.  heh.05:04
gnarfaceit might be a question of them actually adding support for a hardware feature that didn't work before05:04
fluffywolfnope.  firefox is broken.05:04
gnarfacefirefox or firefox-esr?05:04
fluffywolf-esr05:04
fluffywolfand it's FUCKING SHOWING ME GOD DAMN ADS!  I killed all that!05:05
fluffywolfwhy the fuck is debian still building it with this shit compiled in?05:05
fluffywolfwhen I open a new tab, it should be blank.  it should not be advertising whomever gives mozilla money.05:05
masonThat's configurable.05:06
fluffywolflooks like it's now a bunch of "firefox home" stuff I have to disable.05:06
* fluffywolf goes through the options, and sure enough, there's more spam everywhere05:07
fluffywolfI don't want to have firefox recommend products to me while I browse.  that should not even be an option.05:07
fluffywolfthey can't even get their basic memory management working, yet they have time to add crap like this.05:08
fluffywolflol, firefox's virtual memory usage is over 40G now, just to load.05:12
fluffywolffortunately, only about 1G of real memory.  it'll be double that by tomorrow, unless they fixed a whole lot with this version...05:12
fluffywolfI need to figure out what's up with icewm versions during the upgrade.05:13
fluffywolficewm got downgraded05:14
* fluffywolf does not like unexpected downgrades05:15
fluffywolflooks like I need to re-upgrade to the version now in testing to fix it05:17
fluffywolfI don't remember where I got the one I was running before.  might have been unstable.05:17
fluffywolfthere's a major bug in the version in stable.05:17
fluffywolfit should have been RC.05:17
fluffywolfI can't believe the same bug is in both ascii and beowulf.05:18
fluffywolf(it opens windows, then they immediately move to background when you try clicking on them, which gets incredibly frustrating incredibly quickly)05:18
fluffywolf     icewm |    2.0.0-2 | http://deb.devuan.org/merged chimaera/main Sources05:22
fluffywolfE: Version '2.0.0-2' for 'icewm' was not found05:22
fluffywolfwhy does this not like me?  heh05:23
fluffywolfgrrrrrrr.  it's listed, but anything I do to try installing it fails.  for example, trying -t just gives E: The value 'chimaera' is invalid for APT::Default-Release as such a release is not available in the sources05:29
rrq"not available in the sources" ?05:31
fluffywolfok...   I might have typoed a sources.list line.05:31
fluffywolfand it's getting the deb-src and not the deb.05:31
* fluffywolf shuts up05:31
* rrq has popcorn05:32
fluffywolfit's rather annoying that tools list it but won't install it.  heh.05:32
fluffywolfsigh.  and icewm from chimaera won't install due to libc6 issues.05:34
gnarfacedid you check for icewm in beowulf-backports?05:34
gnarfacethe changes to firefox are heartbreaking05:34
rrqhttps://pkginfo.devuan.org/xsl-bin/policy-query.html?c=package&q=icewm05:34
fluffywolfhrmm, or my beowulf upgrade didn't finish completely.05:35
fluffywolfdamnit, I should have not tried installing anything from testing, as apt is now broken.05:35
gnarfaceyea, i would have advised against that, or at least advised removing it before upgrading05:36
gnarfacebut when you did the upgrade did you also do dist-upgrade?05:36
fluffywolfthe beowulf upgrade downgraded icewm; I need to get a working version back...05:36
fluffywolfI only did a dist-upgrade05:36
gnarfacemabye it's just an incomplete upgrade, try: apt-get update && apt-get --no-install-recommends dist-upgrade05:36
gnarfaceoh, if you did the dist-upgrade then it should be done05:36
fluffywolfI mean, this one _works_, if you don't mind the first time you click on a window instead sending it to the back of the stack.  heh.05:37
gnarfacewell it's not in backports, and i wouldn't recommend just running the built version from chimera05:37
gnarfacethe proper approach is to build it yourself, unfortunately05:37
gnarfaceif you have all the development tools already installed though you might get lucky and it'll just work without patching05:38
fluffywolfif I have chimaera in my sources, apt breaks, in that even with APT::Default-Release "beowulf";, it tries installing a couple dozen random packages from chimaera if I try doing anything.05:38
fluffywolfif I do a straight apt-get upgrade, not even trying to install any new packages, it pulls 18 from chimaera.  I don't know why it's pulling that 18.05:39
gnarfacethere's some way to use pinning to anchor it to a lower priority05:39
gnarfacei'm not sure exactly the rules05:39
gnarfacenor am i sure it would work05:39
gnarfacethe package icewm from chimera itself may be enforcing those dependencies anyway05:39
gnarfaceand maybe for good reason05:40
fluffywolfI don't understand why it thinks packages from chimaera are default upgrades when the default release is set to beowulf.05:40
rrqcat /etc/apt/preferences.d/reluctant-chimaera05:40
rrqPackage: *05:40
rrqPin: release n=chimaera*05:40
rrqPin-Priority: 9005:40
gnarfacei can't claim to either05:40
gnarfaceyea, this looks like it would work ^05:40
gnarfacethanks rrq05:40
* fluffywolf tries rrq's delightfully-named file05:40
gnarfacedefault priority is like what, 1000?  1500? something like that05:41
rrq50005:41
rrq100 for installed stuff05:41
gnarfaceaah05:41
* gnarface can never remember 05:41
fluffywolfI wish I had faster internet.05:42
fluffywolfheh.  I had a 28.8 modem when I first used debian, and it took about the same time to apt-get update.  :P05:42
fluffywolfthe files are a wee bit larger now.05:43
gnarfacebasically if it absolutely requires chimera minimum versions of all those packages in spite of this, your only choice to avoid potential random crashes is to rebuild all of them for beowulf too, but if you find that's half your install, you might also find that you might as well have just upgraded to chimera05:43
gnarfacesomeone who knew the icewm codebase well could probably backport that one behavior change easier than all of this, but i wouldn't even know where to start05:44
fluffywolfrrq:  well, that keeps it from upgrading to chimaera packages, but it also won't install any dependencies.  heh.05:45
gnarfaceyea, this may be why it's not in backports05:45
fluffywolfit's a bug.  I looked into it before.  something to do with X timers.  is fixed in newer version.  I can't believe beowulf is still shipping the same buggy version as ascii.05:46
fluffywolf(obviously debian's fault, not devuan's...)05:46
gnarfacehmm, seems whack05:46
gnarfaceis there a bug report open on bugs.debian.org about it?05:46
fluffywolfis there a way to make firefox not double-size the address bar when you click it?  seems to be a new "feature"...05:47
gnarfaceheh, i assume you'd have to actually change the theme itself05:48
gnarfacei was annoyed by that too05:48
gnarfacealso the auto-hiding behavior of the main menu really annoyed me05:49
gnarfacei figured out how to turn that off but i forget exactly where, it's in there somewhere05:49
fluffywolfhttps://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=782088  may have been fixed and then re-appeared.05:51
fluffywolflooks like all the javaworkaroundwhatever stuff might have been removed, possibly re-creating the bug in the process, maybe...05:57
fluffywolfI just want to install the new version.  heh.05:57
fluffywolflooks like I need to upgrade over 200 packages to get chimaera's icewm, and it tries removing should-not-be-removed things in the process.06:07
fluffywolfgrrrrrrrrrr.  I can't even build-dep it without it complaining about libc6.06:09
* fluffywolf does it all by hand06:12
fluffywolfdpkg-buildpackage seems to be happy with what I've installed.06:16
* fluffywolf waits06:16
fluffywolfIceWM 2.0.0, Copyright 1997-2012 Marko Macek, 2001 Mathias Hasselmann.06:19
fluffywolfyay!06:19
fluffywolfbbl, wolfy bedtime06:30
danuanwhat could possibly start rpcbind and nfs-common on reboot after i do update-rc.d -f 'service' remove  , and double checked every runlevel especially rcS.d where they reside for links , none exist14:04
fsmithredpstree might show you14:11
danuaninit starts it , allready checked14:18
danuandid a grep -r  /sbin/'service'  in /etc/         and only files mentioning it are as expected under init.d  / and no links to them in any runlevel14:20
danuanmachine was runing an nfs-kernle-server at one point but was uninstalled , now just a client for nfsv4 , uninstalling rpcbind and nfs-common with purge , and reinstalling does not help14:22
danuanok found it  in /etc/network/if-up.d/mountnfs , seems to start both from there , this is under ceres , under beowulf it did not start them automaticaly if services were disabled14:42
fsmithreddo you have any nfs mounts defined in fstab?14:44
danuanyes , but under beowulf machines  it does not start them if i just disabled the srvices for nfsv4 only client , under ceres it does , seems like a new behavior14:45
danuanthink i found the problem ,  under ceres i defined the mounts in fstab as nfs vs nfs4 in beowulfes , even though server only serves v4 , mountnfs in /etc/network/if-up.d is seems aware of nfs vs nfsv4 in fstab , testing it now14:50
danuannope , same deal , still starting14:52
fsmithredlooking at sysv-rc-conf in ceres, nfs-common and rpcbind are only on in Single14:53
fsmithredthat's the same in chimaera14:56
danuanand /etc/network/if-up.d/mountnfs seem same between ceres and beowulf too14:58
fsmithredoh, I was just getting ready to check that. Thanks.14:58
danuanmakes me think something got fubared on this machine and it just needs a reinstall14:58
fsmithreddebsums -ca14:58
fsmithredto show what config files were changed14:58
danuanalso who would be interested in fixing nonexistant $RPCNFSDOPTS in /etc/defaults/nfs-kernel-server  to pass options to rpc.nfsd ,   /etc/init.d/nfs-kernel-server launches  rpc.nfsd  which reads them from $RPCNFSDPRIORITY , but info defines that as only option for priority15:06
danuandevuan or debian ?15:06
danuanlike passing --no-nfs-version 3 --no-udp   etc...  can go in to $RPCNFSDPRIORITY and it works , or hacking /etc/init.d/nfs-kernel-server to include $RPCNFSDOPTS before $RPCNFSDPRIORITY  , and also a check for not needing rpcbind if server is in nfsv4 mode only15:13
gnarfaceit's debian, but lately their only fix for any issues that come up in an init.d script is to simply remove it from the package15:22
danuanps : debsums -ca fails after symlink loop error15:36
fsmithreddanuan, did you see this?16:01
fsmithredhttps://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=96477616:01
fsmithredthere's a fix posted16:01
danuanthink i got a bit further here ,  on comps that start these services share are automounted on boot , so its /etc/network/if-up.d/mountnfs that starts  rpcbind and nfs-common16:16
danuanon comps that have no automount nfs shares and are only usermounted it does not16:16
fsmithredautomount as in autofs?16:17
danuanno as in  noauto enabled on fstab or not16:18
fsmithredah16:18
fsmithredI guess that's a way to ignore the init script16:18
danuanthanx for help,  just puzzled on how such basic configurations for nfsd and  nfsv4 only server and client be left out of default installs16:29
danuanrunning v4 should not need 10 services and ports open on both clients and servers ,none on client and  just one on server or  2 or 3 at most if using tcp and udp and a idmapd or something16:32
e3d3What repository do I need to install the emacs info pages (? emacs-common-non-dfsg) ?18:46
rwpe3d3, You will need to enable the non-free suite in sources.list and then install emacs-common-non-dfsg19:23
rwpTragicomically the emacs documentation is non-free and therefore was moved out of main.19:24
e3d3rwp: which non-free suite should I enable and how ? source.list has only backports repo deactivated, and I searched this repo already without result.19:28
e3d3I looked in https://www.devuan.org/os/packages but don't know which of the aditional repo's has the right package.19:30
e3d3if any one of those has it19:30
golinuxe3d3: https://pkginfo.devuan.org/ is your friend19:39
e3d3golinux: I had to read it many times before I discover that I can ignore all the text about non-familiar utils. I've found a repo and will bookmark the page. Thanks for helping.19:48
rwpe3d3, you will want "deb http://deb.devuan.org/merged beowulf main contrib non-free" in order to install emacs-common-non-dfsg.20:05
rwpe3d3, I have this in my /etc/apt/sources.list file for Beowulf https://paste.debian.net/plain/118084220:06
rwpReplace beowulf with chimaera if using Testing.  Replace with ceres if using Unstable.20:07
rwpDuplicate all of those lines and add lines starting with "deb-src" in addition to "deb" in order to make source package downloads available.20:08
rwpIn other words this for the same set with source download capability. https://paste.debian.net/plain/118084420:11
e3d3I did it some years before, forgot it but figured it already out with trial, error and found example on a debian webpage. I'n happy with my Emacs info pages. Thank you, also for the extra explanation, that I don't need now because I keep the default main repo's and deactivated non-free after install the package.20:14
e3d3funny to learn that Debian consider the documentation of freedom guru Richard Stallman's Emacs as non-free20:17
e3d3btw: I added the line as:  deb http://deb.devuan.org/merged/ beowulf non-free20:21
nemodoes devuan have a package for a pulseaudio init script?20:22
nemohttps://blog.dhampir.no/content/running-pulseaudio-in-system-mode-with-tcp-listening-on-debian-wheezy  I wanted to give something like this a shot20:22
nemoor do I have to roll my own these days20:23
nemoI guess main issue is I have no idea what it does.  a sample script might be all I need20:31

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