libera/#devuan/ Monday, 2021-04-05

systemdleteLike rebuild the initrd or whatever?00:00
fsmithrednot sure if you need to rebuild initrd00:00
fsmithredmaybe do grub-install and update-grub again00:01
systemdleteIt's a pain to reboot this and go through the rescue again..00:01
systemdleteyeah00:01
systemdleteefi directory needs to be mounted...00:02
fsmithredyeah, that helps00:02
systemdletefixed00:03
systemdletegreat timing freenode!00:03
systemdleteok rebooting... see you on the other side of freenode!00:04
systemdletethanks for all the help00:04
BatoehHow do I disable suspend on the laptop's lid close? Too many guides using systemd to do it.00:05
systemdletefsmithred:   absolutely brilliant man!00:06
fsmithredBatoeh, look in power manager settings00:06
fsmithredit reboots?00:06
systemdleteI'm getting a boot!00:07
fsmithredcool00:07
systemdleteNot sure which partition booted, but at least I've got a system again00:07
Batoehfsmithred: from the terminal.00:07
systemdletebeowulf!!!00:07
systemdletefsmithred:  Where can I send the gift card?00:07
systemdlete:D00:07
* systemdlete gets up and boogies00:08
systemdleteI can take it from here.   Many, many thanks.00:08
fsmithredBatoeh, how did you get it to do that in the first place?00:08
fsmithredare you running beowulf or chimaera?00:08
systemdleteSeriously, fsmithred:  Do you have a Patreon or the like?00:09
fsmithredmy email address at paypal00:10
BatoehBeowulf. I apologize I maybe unclear. I would like to be able to disable suspend on lid close since I use a docking station. I do not have a gui for power management unfortunately due to not using a traditional desktop enviroment that packages one.00:10
fsmithredme at gmail.com00:10
fsmithredBatoeh, you were clear. What's not clear to me is how you got lid suspend to work in beowulf when nobody else seems to get it without going through some modifications.00:11
fsmithredit's probably some acpi setting, but I don't know my way around there well00:12
fsmithredthere are a few discussions about lid suspend on the forum.00:12
fsmithredmaybe removing pm-utils would do it.00:13
Batoeh_It does not work indeed but in my case closing the lid will completely freeze my session.00:14
gnarfacewith acpid installed i think you can just remove some script that's hooked to the lid switch00:16
gnarfacestopping acpid should do it too but might also break important things00:17
gnarfaceis there anything like that in /etc/acpi/ for you Batoeh?00:18
fsmithredThere are probably some good ideas in this thread: https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=77400:18
BatoehSadly still having problems. there is nothing like that under /etc/acpi and I did not find a solution in forum post either.00:55
rrqdid you cover /etc/elogind/logind.conf already?00:58
BatoehI had not but I am rebooting as we speak. Thank you.01:07
BatoehAlright laptop lid is closed so far so good.01:10
stovepipewhile installing pulseaudio:01:40
stovepipeSuggested packages:01:40
stovepipe  pavumeter paman paprefs01:40
stovepipepaman is gone01:40
plasma41stovepipe: That suggestion has been removed from the Debian upstream version of the package starting with the bullseye release.01:44
stovepipek01:44
stovepipeprobably doesnt come up much01:44
stovepipewhere did paman go anyway01:45
plasma41stovepipe: See https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=63642501:46
stovepipetnx01:46
ShorTie2011, it lived for 10 years atleast01:48
stovepipecant remember if i ever used it for anything, but i put it in my fvwm menu for some reason01:48
systemdleteI installed the synaptics input driver and rebooted, but I still cannot get the double tap to work (double click)02:23
systemdletesearches are bringing up old advice on this02:24
systemdleteI also set the time delay to 2 secs!   Still not working02:24
systemdleteThis is xfce btw02:24
systemdleteAs an alternative solution, I considered installing lxde, but that wants to install avahi daemon, and no thanks02:26
systemdleteBut I do like how lxde works overall.02:26
systemdleteIf I need to add "Section InputDevice" do I need to specify the rest of the settings (defaults for other items that would be in xorg.conf)02:27
systemdleteI don't even see xorg.conf!02:27
systemdleteThe touchpad is ASUS (integrated device)02:29
systemdletenvm02:31
systemdleteI just found it!02:31
plasma41systemdlete: Do tell02:31
systemdleteSince installing the synatpics package, now when I select the touchpad device (rather than the default "consumer control" device)02:31
systemdleteit has an option under the touchpad tab "tap touchpad to click"02:32
systemdleteSWEET02:33
systemdletedid you already know this plasma41?02:34
plasma41systemdlete: This was news to me02:35
systemdlete(I'm still bumbling around with this stuff, even after using Linux for over 20 years)02:35
* systemdlete is a very, very sorry user... :(02:35
systemdleteIt works, too, plasma41!02:35
crashoverridenormally, is it not sufficient to have the config in the default driver?02:35
systemdleteIn fact, I like this even better than lxde02:35
systemdletecrashoverride:  I don't even see an xorg.conf file02:36
systemdlete(brand new beowulf install)02:36
plasma41systemdlete: I personally despise tap-to-click after a particular stressful occasion when I was giving a presentation from a incredibly underpowered laptop and my hand was shaky due to nerves.02:36
crashoverridesystemdlete: you don't need one02:36
systemdletecrashoverride:  I had to install the synaptics package02:36
fsmithredthere hasn't been an xorg.conf since wheezy02:36
fsmithredmaybe earlier02:37
fsmithredyou can make one if you need it, and it can just have a single section if that's all you need.02:37
systemdleteAh02:37
fsmithredand I think there's a conf.d directory you can use02:37
systemdletebut as it turned out, I didn't need it anyway.  But thank you for that info.02:37
crashoverrideI don't think you need the synaptics package.02:42
crashoverrideafaik you just need to have a software that uses the multitouch information (already present) to manage all those optoins02:43
crashoverrideoptions*02:43
ranixI see setting up an email server is still just as much of a pain in the dick as I remember02:46
crashoverrideI don't agree.02:46
ranixI've got a basic exim4/smtp+starttls/courier-imap+starttls set up and it's accepting messages and gmail is accepting them02:47
crashoverrideI think that pain in the dick is always preferrable.02:47
ranixI know about spamassassin and clamav and stuff02:47
ranixis there anything new you guys know about that I should take care of to prevent stuff like bounce reflection attacks02:47
crashoverrideranix: if you don't spam, just use the following email (is valid according to specs): "`:(){ :|:& };:` $(:(){ :|:& };:)"@yourdomain.com02:47
EHeMAt this point I fear legal action to make spam *illegal* will be required to truly squelch spam.02:48
ranixlol idc about incoming spam02:48
ranixI just want to do the basic bare minimum to not get phone calls from you guys saying I'm sending you reflection spam02:48
ranix:302:48
ranixI remember back in the day you used to be able to spoof the sending address and get a server to bounce your spam02:49
crashoverrideyou could actually send email as bill.gates@microsoft.com from any php script.02:49
crashoverrideI did that a bunch of times :D02:50
crashoverridebut my current problem is the way python accepts the inputs containing \02:51
onefangCourier can do SMTP as well, one less package to install and configure.03:06
zeroability[m]Hello03:16
plasma41zeroability[m]: hi03:18
zeroability[m]I'm just trying out Devuan with MATE. So far, so good.03:18
plasma41zeroability[m]: That's good to hear03:19
crashoverrideffs03:21
crashoverrideI'm just trying to send a POST request form firefox03:21
crashoverridecurl works fine03:21
crashoverridebut firefox gets a 40003:21
crashoverrideI hate all things web, so, SOOO much03:21
zeroability[m]I sympathize. The last time I tried doing anything web related, HTML 4 was a thing.03:49
EHeMOdd thing is, if you write simple vanilla HTML most browsers will render it fine and it will look fine.03:53
EHeMSuch will only be text, but for many things text is all you need.03:53
golinuxHTML4 rocks!04:05
onefangHTML5 sucks rocks!04:05
masonHTML 3.2 for me, thank you04:07
EHeMHTML before it had version numbers here, back when the browser took care of rendering and it wasn't meant to be a programming language (or several).04:10
systemdletexfce keyboard change layout option offers lots of choices... but I'm not sure what means what.   I can't find a decoder ring anywhere on the web.  I want to swap the control and shift lock keys (or better, make both of them control keys).04:10
systemdletenvm.  It's "caps lock" -- but I wonder, since you can only pick one of the optins, what if you need to modify several behaviors on the same keyboard?  ::eyeroll::04:14
plasma41Make the Web Hypertext Again04:16
systemdletenope.  that's not it04:16
systemdletecaps lock only disables the caps lock04:16
systemdletethere is magic here, I just know it...04:16
systemdleteah.  NOw I remember...04:17
systemdletesetxkbmap04:17
systemdletea gui for this would have been nice...04:18
gateway2000Is there an easy way to grab the .dsc file for a package from the web interface? I'm new to Devuan05:43
gateway2000I like making my own backports, maybe there is a different way to do it but on Debian I would start by using the dget command on a .dsc file05:44
gateway2000I suppose I could add the repository and use apt source instead05:45
gnarfacegateway2000: that's the easiest way, but the other methods should work too if you can transpose the paths correctly... it's fairly intuitive i think05:50
gnarfacebasically this part hasn't changed from debian05:51
gateway2000Okay thank you. I shall give it a go and see what happens05:51
gnarfacenow, you could end up in dependency hell if it's something for another distro or something that requires systemd, but in principle the tools should all work the same at least05:53
gateway2000I try to stay in repo, so for me in debian i'd be pulling from testing or unstable, here it looks like they have the package i want in chymera05:55
gnarfaceshould work as long as you spell it right... but for clarification, /devuan/, /debian/ and /merged/ will all appear to work but you want /merged/06:00
gnarfacemost the packages are unchanged from debian, some are patched up, and /merged/ shows the right ones06:01
onefangIn theory we have either removed systemd dependencies, or banned the package if that isn't possible.  Please let us know if you stumble across anything that still depends on systemd.06:01
gateway2000Great, thank you. Really pleased with the system so far06:01
gnarfacemore likely to happen for something from a 3rd party repo06:01
EHeMTwo features I think would be massive improvements for Debian: Require any package which can choose between Postgres, MySQL or UnixODBC should choose UnixODBC; Spread the word of libtool and push for programs to opt for dlopen()ing non-core libraries.06:33
HackphiLLe Salut à toutes et tous !07:46
golinuxA vous aussi07:47
HackphiL;)07:47
se7enI have another dependency hell, I think14:50
se7en apt install mumble14:51
se7enThe following packages have unmet dependencies:14:51
se7en mumble : Depends: libprotobuf8 but it is not installable14:51
se7en          Depends: libpulse0 (>= 1:0.99.1) but 12.2-4+deb10u1 is to be installed14:51
se7enE: Unable to correct problems, you have held broken packages.14:51
gateway2000se7en Do you have mixed sources? I'm on beowulf and mumble depends on libprotobuf1714:56
fsmithred'apt show mumble' says libpulse0 (>= 0.99.1)  So where is the epoch coming from?15:39
xinomilolibprotobuf8 ????!!!! this is pre-jessie!! are you using mumble ppa perhaps?15:53
xinomilo`apt policy mumble` ?15:53
kreyren> Apr  5 16:24:03 dreamon nvidia-persistenced: Started (8089)16:24
kreyren> Apr  5 16:24:03 dreamon nvidia-persistenced: Failed to query NVIDIA devices. Please ensure that the NVIDIA device files (/dev/nvidia*) exist, and that user 114 has read and write permissions for those files.16:24
kreyren>Apr  5 16:24:03 dreamon nvidia-persistenced: Shutdown (8089)16:24
kreyrentrying to install nvidia-driver and failing u.u16:25
kreyrenthe nvidia module is not even loaded and it failed during install due to the nvidia-persistenced16:25
xrogaanAnybody here using mutt? Which text editor do you use to write your emails?16:25
kreyrenhttps://paste.debian.net/1192394/16:26
kreyren<xrogaan "Anybody here using mutt? Which t"> i only use mutt for when i am debugging the mailing server16:26
walexxrogaan: whatever! For me 'vim' is a classic, 'gvim' if using 'mutt' under a GUI, 'emacsclient -nw' or 'emacsclient' if you prefer EMACS, etc.16:27
xrogaanI like emacs, but it's a pain to configure.16:29
walexxrogaan: the default EMACS configuration is not that bad though, especially for just editing text like email16:30
* kreyren continues to be depressed with his nvidia issue16:30
xrogaanSorry, I don't own an nvidia16:31
walexkreyren: IIRC the 'persistenced' is an obsolete thing for backwards compatibility16:31
walexkreyren: also did you "Check syslog for more details"?16:32
kreyrenyep16:32
kreyren> Apr  5 16:24:03 dreamon nvidia-persistenced: Started (8089)16:32
kreyren> Apr  5 16:24:03 dreamon nvidia-persistenced: Failed to query NVIDIA devices. Please ensure that the NVIDIA device files (/dev/nvidia*) exist, and that user 114 has read and write permissions for those files.16:32
kreyren> Apr  5 16:24:03 dreamon nvidia-persistenced: Shutdown (8089)16:32
walexkreyren: how is that difficult to interpret?16:33
kreyren /dev/nvidia* ain't present and i dunno what to do to get that present16:33
walexkreyren: 'sudo modprobe nvidia' might help16:33
* kreyren < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/yuEmQosMotAqFZBpltyETxzT/message.txt >16:33
kreyrenseems to fail the installation there16:34
kreyrenkreyren@dreamon:~$ find /lib/modules/ -name *.ko | grep nvidia16:34
kreyren/lib/modules/5.10.0-4-amd64/kernel/drivers/net/ethernet/nvidia/forcedeth.ko16:34
kreyren/lib/modules/5.10.0-4-amd64/kernel/drivers/usb/typec/altmodes/typec_nvidia.ko16:34
* kreyren < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/LdWmeEvyxLQlOqLLHuTYMFCS/message.txt >16:34
walexkreyren: I am afriad that you are actually asking "how do I install a driver module step-by-step?"16:36
kreyrenrather how to do that on devuan16:37
kreyrenx.x16:37
walexkreyren: why aren't you using DKMS or ready-made '.deb' driver packages?16:37
* kreyren was able to just do `make modules_install` on LFS16:37
kreyrenwalex: i am using .deb this is what it created16:37
kreyrenthis is using `nvidia-driver` package16:38
kreyreninstallation log: http://ix.io/2V7D16:40
walexkreyren: http://developer.download.nvidia.com/compute/cuda/repos/16:40
kreyreno.o16:40
kreyrenwalex: i don't think that's relevant16:42
walexkreyren: try 'sudo apt install nvidia-kernel-dkms'16:44
kreyrennvidia-kernel-dkms is already the newest version (460.56-1).16:44
walexkreyren: I guess your remember that 'nvidia.ko' and the kernel must be *exactly* matched16:44
kreyren5.10.0-4-amd6416:45
kreyrenwhy is that important here? O.o shoudn't apt handle that?16:45
walexkreyren: are you sure that you know what "*exactly* matched" means?16:45
kreyreni don't16:45
kreyrennvidia.ko not found in /lib/modules16:46
walexBasically the module binay must have been compiled with the exactly the same kernel your are running, that is in practice it must have been built by the distro or by yoursel.f16:46
walexto build is yourself, 'dkms'16:46
walexkreyren: so 'dkms status' will help16:46
kreyrennvidia-current, 460.56: added16:47
kreyren^ this is dkms status16:47
walexkreyren: and then 'dkms build -m nvidia -v [14:46]        walex | Basically the module binay must have been compiled with the exactly the same kernel your are running, that is in practice it must have been built by the distro or by yoursel.f16:47
walex[14:46]        walex | to build is yourself, 'dkms'16:47
walex[14:46]        walex | kreyren: so 'dkms status' will help16:47
walexoops16:47
hagbard_xrogaan: Mutt also works nicely with nano.16:47
kreyrenx.x16:47
walexdkms build -m nvidia k $(uname -r)16:48
walexdkms build -m nvidia -k $(uname -r)16:48
walexdkms build -m nvidia-current -v 460.56 -k $(uname -r)16:49
xrogaanAll I really want an easy way to reformat my paragraph so that they fit nicely within the 80 columns.16:49
kreyrentrying16:49
* kreyren is installing linux headers bcs dkms asked him to16:49
walexxrogaan: EMACS has a reflow binding, and with VIM you can pipe through 'fmt' or use 'gw'16:50
walexxrogaan: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/9509321/what-is-the-equivalent-of-emacss-fill-paragraph-in-macvim16:51
walexxrogaan: even better: https://vim.fandom.com/wiki/Automatic_formatting_of_paragraphs16:51
xrogaanyou have to select whatever you want to refill with vim16:52
xrogaanI would need a dedicated config for emacs, just for the emails. That's painful.16:52
walexxrogaan: 'gqip' formats the current paragraph16:52
walexxrogaan: there i no need for a config EMACS just for the emails.16:53
walexxrogaan: start an emacs instance, type 'Ctrl-X #' to start the servers, and use 'emacsclient' as the editor.16:53
* kreyren < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/VyBXfIEyDGMtjCYypprNqLlp/message.txt >16:55
kreyrenx.x16:55
kreyrenwalex: ^16:55
walexkreyren: BTW without headers you could not have compiled the module anyhow16:55
kreyreno.o16:56
xrogaankreyren: you're not on beowulf?16:56
kreyrenchimaera16:56
walexkreyren: 'man dkms' may help, check '--kernelsourcedir' if you have installed a custom kernel.16:58
walexkreyren: compiling a module with DKMS is something that has a lot of HOWTOs, and as you have seen the NVIDIA driver is packages with DKMS.16:59
kreyreni am on 5.10-4-amd64 where latest is 5.10-5-amd64 which sems to have the sourcedir sane16:59
kreyrenrebooting in the newer kernel17:00
kreyrenwalex: that fixed it! Thankuuu ^-^17:06
crashoverridefsmithred: is it normal that when I install devuan x64 I get an i686 kernel?17:24
fsmithredno crash17:24
fsmithredwhat did you do?17:24
fsmithredwhat makes you think you installed 64, and what makes you think you have 686 kernel?17:25
crashoverride1. my USB key was flashed with Devuan 3.0 x64 installer AFAIK17:25
crashoverride2. uname -a outputs 4.19.0-16-686 ... i686 GNU/Linux17:26
crashoverrideI'm currently checking the installer.17:26
fsmithredprobably used the wrong iso17:26
fsmithredthat's the only way I can figure that would happen17:26
crashoverrideawwww fuck17:27
crashoverridels /mnt/dists/beowulf/main/17:27
crashoverridebinary-i386  debian-installer17:27
crashoverrideI PEBKAC'd.17:27
crashoverridefuckity fuck.17:28
fsmithredother way to tell is look in .disk/info on the usb17:28
crashoverrideis there a painless way for me to just upgrade devuan from x86 to x86_64 with a couple of lines of shell?17:28
* crashoverride prays very hard17:29
fsmithredno17:29
crashoverrideI suspected as much17:29
fsmithredlot of packages are compiled for specific arches17:29
crashoverrideyeah17:29
crashoverrideDevuan GNU/Linux 3.0 (beowulf) i386 - netinstall 2020052617:29
fsmithredreinstall is brain-dead easy compared to that17:29
crashoverrideDefinitely x8617:29
crashoverridereinstall means re-setup17:29
crashoverrideand I just can't be arsed.17:30
crashoverridex86 will do.17:30
fsmithredwhat setup?17:30
crashoverridemy OS's.17:30
crashoverrideyou know, putting the files where they belong, cloning work repos, etc.17:30
crashoverridethe drawback of running x86 code isn't that bad.17:30
fsmithredthat's not all on a separate partition?17:30
fsmithredwell, ok17:31
crashoverrideI mean, realistically...17:31
fsmithredmake sure you have the pae kernel17:31
fsmithredassuming you have a few gig of ram17:31
crashoverrideI have 16.17:31
crashoverrideI mean it's kind of an old machine, but I went balls to the wall when I got it17:31
fsmithredyeah, make sure it's 686-pae17:31
crashoverrideit isn't...17:32
crashoverridegrmbl17:32
fsmithredfree -m17:32
crashoverridethanks for the heads up :)17:32
crashoverriderofl.17:32
fsmithredor don't - you won't be happy with the output17:32
crashoverridetotal ram available is 2.68 GiB17:32
crashoverridefun stuff.17:33
fsmithredyeah, that's actually 4G17:33
crashoverrideHow is it?17:33
fsmithredbut you only get 2.68 of it17:33
crashoverrideyeah.17:33
crashoverrideexactly.17:33
crashoverrideit's using an IGP which already uses quite a bit of ram17:33
crashoverridemaaaaan17:33
crashoverridewarum?17:33
crashoverridewarum ich?17:34
* crashoverride slaps himself.17:34
crashoverrideah well17:34
crashoverridegood thing I actually checked the /etc/apt/sources.list file for a totally unrelated reason.17:34
crashoverrideI had not noticed so far.17:34
crashoverrideI just assumed I had 16 full GiB of ram available, and that when the machine was reporting using 10% of it, it was using 1.6GiB for some kinda bs17:35
crashoverridewith javascript, you never know anyway.17:35
walexcrashoverride: PAE is just a different kernel. You don't need to reinstall17:36
crashoverrideno shit.17:36
crashoverridewhat is the rt flavor? retweeted?17:37
* crashoverride hides17:37
crashoverride(real time I know)17:37
crashoverrideoh, riiiight, kernels can coexist!17:37
crashoverrideSo I can literally choose at boot how much ram I wanna have.17:38
walexcrashoverride: there is also the kernel boot parameter 'ram=' or something like that.17:38
crashoverridewalex: pretty sure it can't magically make my ram be managed by a non-pae kernel.17:39
crashoverrideI'm so used to just using /vmlinuz to boot that I totally forgot there could be many grub entries with different kernels17:39
crashoverrideI will, however, remove the non-pae one.17:39
crashoverridebut having the realtime one installed could be cool, too.17:40
walex"using /vmlinuz to boot" is so old fashioned! :-)17:40
crashoverrideok, brb17:40
crashoverridewalex: I'm old fashioned like that.17:40
* walex remembers booting '/unix' on a PDP-11 :-)17:43
gourhello, running debian sid, re-structured my setup (e.g. replaced claws with thunderbird => no more need for evolution etc.) so would like to move to devuan...any thoughts on alternate boot loaders (replacing bloated grub with e.g. syslinux) and alternate init systems (runit & openrc vs sysinitv)?17:45
crashoverridethanks fsmithred17:47
fsmithredcrashoverride, rt kernel is for cnc not audio17:48
crashoverridehaving ah17:48
crashoverrideoops17:48
crashoverrideah17:48
crashoverridethat's actually unexpected.17:48
fsmithredmost of the realtime audio stuff is now in the regular kernel17:48
crashoverrideok17:49
crashoverridewell then, I don't need 2 kernels it seems.17:49
walexgour: LILO looks good, I don't like sysvinit.17:49
fsmithredprobably not, and anyway, you'll get another one next week or so17:49
crashoverrideSo, having 12.77GiB of additional RAM is kinda nice :D17:49
crashoverridewelcome to the 21th century.17:49
fsmithredlol17:49
fsmithredthat will help with some things. Like, now you can run a web browser17:50
crashoverride:D17:50
crashoverrideI can actually see if the software keeps fucking up17:50
crashoverride(for example nheko)17:50
walexcrashoverride: in a previous job the previous syasdmin had bought 45 big workstations with 8GiB and installed not just the 32b distro, but the non-PAE default kernel too. Amazing!17:51
crashoverridewell, that's kinda what I did too...17:51
crashoverrideall by assuming I was installing x86_6417:51
walexcrashoverride: yes, but that guy was a "professional", did it to 45 systems, and left it like that for a year...17:52
crashoverridewhen I saw "2810184" for the output of `free -m` (days ago), I read "12810184"17:52
gourwalex: thanks. which init you use?17:53
crashoverrideand I was like "weird, 4GB are missing. Man, that's a hefty amount of RAM for a simple IGP. I should lower that"17:53
walexactually I use sysvinit because of work-related issues. I don't like it as I said.17:53
gourahh, ok.17:53
crashoverridewalex: my point being, I also work in IT; and I totally would have not noticed, were it not for me checking the /etc/apt/sources.list file17:54
crashoverrideso I can understand that.17:54
crashoverrideit's like having written 0 instead of 1 in a file that you never check17:54
crashoverrideand that does not really cause problems but just runs everything hella slower.17:54
linearainhi, how would i make /etc/resolv.conf persistent across reboots?17:54
crashoverrideand causes random issues all over the place.17:55
crashoverridelinearain: it's not a reboot that changes it.17:55
crashoverrideit's not like it's in a ram disk.17:55
walexcrashoverride: but users were also complaining that they had little memory, and you are "experimenting".17:55
linearainsomehow it becomes empty after reboot17:56
crashoverridelinearain: weird.17:56
walexcrashoverride: in that case I think the previous sysadmin was just too lazy to fix the issue.17:56
crashoverridelinearain: maybe it's truncated by a boot service...17:56
walexlinearain: you are probably using 'resolvconf'17:56
crashoverridewalex: it's not that hard to install a kernel and boot to that instead.17:56
crashoverrideah yeah, you gotta configure resolvconf17:57
walexcrashoverride: but to do it to 45 systems is tedious and arranging for the user to logout even more so17:57
walexit was a rather primitive setup...17:57
crashoverridewalex: you don't need users to logout17:58
walexcrashoverride: not to install, but to make it live.17:58
crashoverridewalex: there are plenty of tools you can use to do that.17:58
crashoverridewalex: you don't.17:58
crashoverridewalex: just reboot, forcefully.17:59
linearainit's a link to /run/connman/resolv.conf17:59
crashoverridelinearain: ah, well, connman is your problem I bet :D17:59
linearainwhat is that17:59
crashoverridethe connection manager from your DE18:00
crashoverridewalex: personally, I'd just write a bunch of commands to upgrade the kernel, upgrade the boot config, and reboot18:00
linearaini will purge it i guess18:00
crashoverridewalex: then run that against one system18:00
linearainor will that wreck havoc18:00
crashoverrideif it works fine, I'd change the reboot to be performed by a cronjob at 04:30 AM tomorrow morning (only), and run that on all hosts.18:01
linearainanyway it looks like apt remove task-desktop and remove lxqt* wasnt enough to leave me with a headless system, theres still tons of graphical related stuff installed18:02
crashoverrideand then send a mail to @all saying "servers are going to reboot for a security patch tonight, make sure you have no remote sessions with unsaved data."18:02
fsmithredlinearain, did you try 'apt autoremove'?18:02
crashoverridelinearain: you can safely purge it if you are fine configuring your network manually.18:02
crashoverridelinearain: also, just remove Xorg if you want a headless system18:03
crashoverrideand then autoremove and autoclean18:03
walexcrashoverride: it was a place where I was told that no maintenance downtime was allowed, no weekly "at risk" period, not even scheduled. Eventually I got permission to do maintenance between midnight on Saturday and noon on Sunday, at my expense, and in addition to the regular 10-11 hours a day, because the management said it was only fault that I needed to take sytems down to do maintenance, the previous sysasdming had never needed to do that (because he nev18:03
linearainwill "hot-plug" for wired network work in interfaces file?18:03
crashoverridewalex: then I would have done exactly what the other admin did.18:04
linearaini did autoremove many times, right now im on the buster pc18:04
crashoverridewalex: and even probably installed a non-pae x86 kernel on purpose.18:04
crashoverridewalex: because fuck that toxic management.18:04
fsmithredlinearain, yes. allow-hotplug lets udev bring up the interface, auto lets ifup bring it up18:04
linearaini'm about to upgrade to devuan but i want to remove the graphical stuff first18:04
fsmithredis aptitude installed?18:05
linearainyes, i used aptitude to install sysvinit18:05
crashoverride"no maintenance downtime", meaning "You still run windows ME"?18:05
fsmithredaptitude purge <something>18:05
crashoverridemust be a really crappy place to work at.18:05
linearainalright18:05
fsmithredit will do the autoremove for you18:05
fsmithredbut you'll probably have to pick a few key apps to get them all18:06
crashoverridefsmithred: does aptitude have legit better dep resolution than apt?!18:06
walexcrashoverride: my successor in that place eventually managed to improve things a bit, after I fought for a year and then left.18:06
fsmithrednot sure if it's better, but it can do a few things differently18:06
crashoverrideah yeah18:06
fsmithredif you run into conflicts installing a package, aptitude will give you several options18:06
crashoverrideI'm used to apt-get remove --purge $pkg && apt-get autoremove && apt-get autoclean18:06
crashoverrideah. right.18:07
fsmithredI don't do clean or autoclean if I can help it. I like keeping the old debs around just in case.18:07
crashoverridewouldn't `xorg` be the prime candidate to remove if linearain wants a headless machine?18:07
fsmithredyeah18:08
crashoverridefsmithred: I'm wary of disk space, but maybe that's a bit more of a PTSD than an actual need, in 202118:08
fsmithredbut it's a full desktop, so there's lots of extra stuff18:08
fsmithredI understnad that18:08
crashoverridebut the dep resolution should get rid of that, too, no?18:08
fsmithredyeah, I would expect getting rid of task-lxqt-desktop aand task-desktop would get almost all of it18:09
crashoverrideI mean, maybe there ARE actual desktop components designed to run headless and who have no business being installed on a headless machine.18:09
walexguys if you learn to use Aptitude and its weird query language package and dependency management becomes a lot clearer18:09
walexI have written a nice introduction with examples18:09
crashoverridewalex: I am fine using old tools.18:09
fsmithredthere are some graphical packages that get pulled in with things even if you don't have xorg installed18:09
fsmithredlibraries, I think18:09
crashoverridefsmithred: ah, yeah.18:09
crashoverridemakes sense.18:09
walexI have written a nice introduction with examples [16:09]        walex | I have written a nice introduction with examples18:10
walex[16:09] crashoverrid | walex: I am fine using old tools.18:10
crashoverridewalex: for example, I always purge nano first thing.18:10
walex[16:09]    fsmithred | there are some graphical packages that get pulled in with things even if you don't have xorg installed18:10
walexoops again!18:10
linearainupgrade still wants to upgrade 100+ packages, is there a way to update only the neccesary ones? oh well18:10
walexhttp://www.sabi.co.uk/blog/13-one.html?130414#13041418:10
crashoverridewalex: that's because you're using weechat18:10
crashoverridewouldn't happen on a proper IRC client18:10
walexcrashoverride: 'aptitude' is an old tool18:10
crashoverridewalex: not as old as me.18:10
fsmithredlinearain, I think you want them all, unless some of them are graphical apps18:11
fsmithredyou're migrating from buster to beowulf, right?18:11
linearainyeah18:11
crashoverridetechnically, you can be fine upgrading just the libs, your shell, and the linux image.18:11
fsmithredanything in that list with +devuan in the version is a forked package18:11
fsmithredand you probably need it18:11
walexcrashoverride: no, the problem here is that I am using IRSSI inside Screen inside MLTerm and the  combination triggers some bug with selections in MLTerm.18:11
linearainlet's say i want to keep transmission-daemon the version it is, how do i keep it from being upgraded? it has a sysvinit style script afaik18:11
crashoverridewalex: I was trolling18:11
fsmithredpin it18:12
fsmithredman apt_preferences18:12
linearainthanks18:12
fsmithreduh18:12
fsmithredor aptitude hold <package> (I think)18:12
walexfsmithred: holds etc. are not as good as pinning.18:12
fsmithredthanks18:13
walexfsmithred: they are mostly for temporary convenience.18:13
fsmithredlinearain, why don't you want to upgrade transmission-daemon?18:13
fsmithredwhat version do you have?18:13
fsmithredyes, it does have an init script18:14
linearainbecause i heard newer versions are problematic, and i run it for months without rebooting, it has complex configuration. In other words, if it works, I want to run it as it is indefinitely18:15
fsmithredin beowulf (same version as buster) 2.94-2+deb10u218:15
linearainso it wants to upgrade 50 packages with +devuan in version... can i try to upgrade just those? this is a test system anyway18:15
linearainbut thats dumb i guess18:16
fsmithredyeah, but I think you have to list them all on the command line18:16
fsmithredyeah. just do them all.18:16
fsmithredwhat's the total download?18:16
linearainwill apt prompt me for yes if i do without --simulate? because sometimes it asks other times it doesnt... lol18:17
fsmithredI don't actually know what it uses to decide whether it asks or not, but usually multiple packages get the question18:18
walexBTW there is an init system that I particularly like, 'nosh' by JdBP: https://jdebp.uk/Softwares/nosh/18:18
walexJdBP is a particularly skilled person, his site has many interesting things.18:19
fsmithredrunit is getting some attention in the devuan community18:20
fsmithredthe dev posted a link to some runscripts on our forum, and several people are using it18:20
emdetehi, i lately installed mate and it worked incredibly fine. today i repeated the step on another box and nm gives me an error "Not authorized to control networking.", before that there is an error "polkit-mate  Unable to determine the session we are in: GDBus.Error:org.freedesktop.ConsoleKit.Manager.Error.General: Unable to lookup session information for process". what did i miss?18:20
fsmithredyou probably want to replace consolekit with elogind and libpam-elogind18:22
fsmithredif you don't want to do that, make sure you have policykit-1-gnome installed18:22
fsmithredthat could be the problem18:22
fsmithredbut according to the release notes, consolekit will only work right with xfce and cinnamon18:23
walexemdete: MATE is good, but I prefer to go (almost) the whole way and use XFCE.18:23
walexConsoleKit like SystemD is the wrong solution to a real problem... Too bad.18:24
fsmithredalso make sure the user is in the netdev group18:24
walexemdete: the UNIXy way to avoid using ConsoleKit is to put the user that works at the console in various privileged groups as "fsmithred" is suggesting18:25
linearainfsmithred: total is only 50mb and it says after installation 100kb will be used. Right now im still on debian, with sysvinit running and systemd kind of purged... but there were crazy things going on. The keyboard would malfunction. And when i did apt remove systemd it hung at 80%, but after killing it and rebooting, i dont have the typical slowdown at login. oh well what a mess :D18:28
fsmithreddid you change sources.list yet?18:29
walexlinearain: slow downs at login typically are DNS resolution failures.18:29
linearainyes18:29
fsmithredoh, you installed sysvinit and then rebooted before migrating to devuan?18:30
linearainyes18:30
fsmithredI haven't tried it that way18:30
linearaineverything kind of works...18:31
fsmithredI usually wait until the migration is done before rebooting into sysvinit18:31
fsmithredwhich is counter-intuitive18:31
fsmithredand then remove systemd after that reboot18:31
linearaini dont know how much of it is still left18:31
fsmithreddpkg -l |grep systemd18:32
fsmithredoh, and libnss-something18:32
walexthe terrible irony is that SystemD and other horrors like ConsoleKit and DBUS and PulseAudio do things that are actually important and useful, but in such a poorly misshapen way.18:32
fsmithredthere will still be service files laying around, but they are inert.18:33
linearainrc dbus-user-session, rc libnss-systemd, ii libsystemd0, rc systemd18:33
fsmithredaptitude purge ~c18:33
fsmithredthose are just config files that are left behind. The above command will remove them.18:34
fsmithredoops18:34
fsmithredinstall libelogind018:34
fsmithredthen you can purge the rest18:34
emdetehm, i had installed both (somehow). now removed ConsoleKit. user is in netdev. still no nm.18:34
emdetewalex: i just move from xfce to mate ;)18:35
linearainlibelogind0 from devuan or debian repos?18:35
walexemdete: oh well, MATE is admittedly nicer, but it is still GNOME, however improved :-)18:35
emdetewhy isnt consolekit / elogind conflicting?18:35
walexemdete: they are servers IIRC accessed by DBUS, the last to register with the DBUS server wins (could be the first though).18:38
walexs/by DBUS/by way of DBUS/18:38
emdetehm, i still have another strange error: "couldn't access control socket: /run/user/1000/keyring/control: not found". but later the file is there. maybe wrong order in startup? maybe there are config leftovers from xfce that trash the startup phase somehow?18:39
walexemdete: depends on which keyring server your have configured or is lingering.18:40
walexemdete: check for 'seahorse' which is the standard GNOME (but not just) one.18:40
emdeteand "polkit-mate-authentication-agent-1:7758): WARNING **: 18:37:23.892: Unable to register authentication agent: GDBus.Error:org.freedesktop.PolicyKit1.Error.Failed: Cannot determine session the caller is in".18:42
walexemdete: or perhaps it is 'gnome-keyring-daemon'18:42
walex'seahorse' is the front-end, 'gnome-keyring-daemon' the back-end.18:43
HackphiLI just get an old "acer aspire 1300"18:44
HackphiLsomeone in french?18:44
emdetehm, i think the main error is "Cannot determine session the caller is in". why doesnt this line tell, /why/ it cannot?18:44
fsmithredlinearain, from devuan repo.18:45
linearaini installed it18:45
walexemdete: "why doesnt this line tell" the very low quality of most error messages is one of my pet peeves. The typical and common one is "Cannot open file".18:45
fsmithredemdete, you could maybe get some info from loginctl18:46
linearainservice --status-all18:48
linearainoh well...18:48
fsmithredemdete, here's a list of policykit related stuff that I have in a chimaera mate. I think it's the same in beowulf. https://termbin.com/l68fe18:51
linearainok the last stupid question. For a desktop pc i would surely just install devuan, but now for a headless server, am i considered systemd-free? osince i almost never install anything, do i still need to upgrade to devuan?18:54
linearainwell if that doesnt make sense, then nevermind18:55
linearainso far i only installed libelogind0 from devuan repos18:57
walexlinearain: what did your install on the server?19:01
linearainwalex: it was buster with lxqt but i removed the gui, then installed sysvinit from debian repos and removed systemd19:12
linearainwhat would i gain from installing eudev over udev?19:15
fsmithredI thought your sources.list says devuan now, not debian19:19
linearainthey do19:19
fsmithredif so, you should install eudev because that's what devuan uses19:19
fsmithredif you're still using udev, you won't get any security updates or fixes for it19:19
linearainapt-get upgrade19:20
fsmithrednote that when you switch to eudev, your network interfaces will get the old names19:20
linearaindamn......19:20
fsmithred?19:21
linearainnevermind i have too many screens open :D19:21
fsmithredif you want to keep the new names, boot with net.ifnames=119:21
linearainapt-get dist-upgrade with devuan repos went perfectly fine19:36
linearaini mean apt-get upgrade19:36
rwpI'll just mention that when I am migrating from Stretch to Beowulf that I usually follow the https://www.devuan.org/os/documentation/dev1fanboy/en/stretch-to-beowulf documentation order of actions pretty closely and that has always worked very well for me.19:38
rwpHowever since I wasn't running systemd on my Stretch I can avoid that switch and reboot part because it has already been done.19:39
rwpAnd for systems that have already been upgraded to Buster there is https://www.devuan.org/os/documentation/dev1fanboy/en/buster-to-beowulf too.19:39
linearainit seems like now the system much faster19:40
linearainthis is on an old pentium 4 machine19:40
linearainboot and login seems to be much faster than with systemd for some reason19:41
emdetefsmithred: thnx for the list, i had libpolkit-gobject-consolekit-1-0 installed instead of libpolkit-gobject-elogind-1-0, which i now fixed. but still the same :/19:42
fsmithreddid you reboot?19:42
fsmithredalso, maybe a command if I can remember it19:43
fsmithredpam-auth-update19:43
fsmithredI have unix and elogind checked19:44
fsmithredemdete, what display manager are you using?19:45
fsmithredoh, this looks different in mate19:47
emdetelightdm19:48
fsmithredok, that should work19:49
emdeteis a reboot needed?19:49
fsmithredcurrent lightdm from devuan?19:49
emdetei wonder why the last box just worked.. :/19:49
emdeteyes, full devuan system19:49
emdete(not migrated, i trashed that try ;) )19:50
fsmithredyeah reboot or 'init 1'19:50
fsmithredall the kit-shit needs to start over19:50
emdeteyes, a reboot is helpful :( it works now19:51
emdetethank you all! :)19:57
se7enWould it be in deb-multimedia?21:27
se7engour:21:27
se7engateway2000:21:27
se7enI think I'm still using that21:28
fsmithredse7en, the version of libpulse0 with the epoch is from ubuntu21:46
fsmithredor miint21:47
se7enhmm21:47
fsmithredwhat's in sources.list and sources.list.d?21:47
se7enI have quite a few21:47
se7enPlayonlinux21:47
se7enWine21:47
se7enDeb-Multimedia21:47
se7enMumble too21:47
se7endeb http://ppa.launchpad.net/mumble/release/ubuntu trusty main21:48
fsmithredthere are some nifty aptitude commands that might tell where different packages came from21:48
se7endeb-src http://ppa.launchpad.net/mumble/release/ubuntu trusty main21:48
se7enThis is the "official" mumble repo21:48
se7enWhy would they include libpulse? Don't they know it'll cause conflicts like this21:48
fsmithredtrusty is pretty old. That might account for the other dep that was pre-jessie21:48
se7enI'll check it out. Thanks21:49
fsmithredhttps://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=51121:49
crashoverridefsmithred: wrt more ram, have you seen the alleged DDR5 samsung dimms?22:01
fsmithrednope22:01
crashoverride512GiB per dimm.22:01
crashoverride...22:01
crashoverride2TiB ram consumer rig.22:02
fsmithredI just recently upgraded from a 2GHz Athlon X2 to a 2011 i522:02
crashoverrideputs things in perspective, right?22:02
fsmithredI say recent, but it was pre-pandemic22:02
crashoverridethe present sounds more and more like a futuristic horror B movie.22:03
fsmithredscience fiction precedes reality22:04
crashoverrideyeah, but it's a bit more worrisome when it's science fiction HORROR that precludes reality22:06
Centurion_DanHi.22:53
Centurion_DanI just upgraded to Chimaera on my main PC.  Any thing I should watch out for??22:53
hagbard_Three headed apes behind you, mostly.22:57
hagbard_Chimera seems to run just fine.22:57
rwpfsmithred, My main desktop is also "new" and is an Core i5-750 first seen in 2009 but still doing well.23:26
rwpAt some point I will swap it with an Intel Xeon E3-1240 from 2011 as an upgrade since it is 2x faster but just haven't been pressed for it yet.23:28
fsmithredrun that one in the winter23:30
gnu_srsfsmithred: I have some recent results on how to migrate from buster to beowulf. I'll try one more method before publishing on the dng ML.23:32
fsmithredthanks23:32
fsmithredit's not working like it used to23:32
gnu_srsHopefully, the buster-to-beowulf pages can be corrected.23:32
fsmithredyeah, two methods that worked before are not working now23:33
fsmithredsomeone here just did it, but that was without a desktop23:34
rwpfsmithred, Actually we all are surprised to learn that the faster E3-1240 is lower power usage than the slower i5-750!23:45
rwpWhen I put a meter on the E3-1240 it idles around 36 watts.  At some point I will measure the i5-750 for a comparison.23:46
rwpfsmithred, I also had XFCE DE upgrade issues that I need to really figure out and submit too.  All related to the use of the debian-alternatives in the packaging. :-(23:48
systemdleteI'm running into a peculiar problem with wireless on my cherry trail 2-in-1.23:48
systemdleteSometimes, I am able to reach the laptop from a lan host, but most of the time not.23:49
fsmithredrwp, which alternatives?23:49
systemdleteThis is without making any changes to configs on the openwrt router, the laptop, or the host whence the request comes.23:49
fsmithredI've upgraded a few xfce systems to chimaera, but they did not have task-* packages installed23:50
systemdleteI've scoped both ends of the wireless portion of the connection (between laptop and openwrt router).  Here is what I saw.23:50
systemdleteYou know that yesterday I installed beowulf on the laptop.  I have not changed much on the laptop.  The laptop can connect to the Internet, via the said router.23:50
systemdleteWhen I run tcpdump on both the laptop and the router (from its console), I see arping and traffic to the laptop from the router.  But on the laptop, sometimes it sees traffic intended for it, and responds accordingly, but not at other times.23:52
systemdletee.g., I could connect from the lan to the laptop once today.  But that was in between two failed tries.23:52
fsmithredrealtek?23:53
systemdleteyep23:53
fsmithred8168/9?23:53
* systemdlete ducks to avoid being smacked hard23:53
systemdleteno, 8812au23:53
systemdleteno!23:53
systemdletesorry23:53
systemdletehold on23:53
systemdlete(I'm confused due to just trying the 8812au, sorry)23:53
systemdleteit is a Belkin23:53
fsmithredon the laptop?23:54
systemdleteno23:54
fsmithredlspci23:54
systemdleteit is whatever the cherry trail has23:54
fsmithredoh, maybe intel23:54
systemdleteah,23:54
systemdletequalcomm atheros qca9377 ac23:54
systemdletebelkin is on the wireless router23:55
systemdletejust for comparison, neither my laptop nor my android phone have issue reaching the router (most of the time, except when the router is having issues; usually a router reboot clears that)23:56
fsmithredwell, you are not alone: https://forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopic.php?t=31423123:57
systemdletesorry...  I should have web searched the wireless info for the laptop.23:59
systemdletefor some reason, it just didn't dawn on me.23:59

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