libera/#devuan/ Saturday, 2021-05-15

unixbsdis the debian stable with 5.1.x comparable to devuan beowufl, does it have 5.x kernel?00:34
rrqhttps://pkginfo.devuan.org/cgi-bin/policy-query.html?c=package&q=linux-image-5*00:36
unixbsdthx00:36
unixbsdwhat means bpo already?00:37
unixbsdbackports00:37
unixbsdand the default beowulf kernel, is that a 4.x type?00:37
rrqyes, seems to be 4.19 atm00:47
unixbsdbit old,... brr00:47
unixbsdso recopmilation to get a newer one00:47
tsadokEh, I remember when all the cool kids were messing around with the new 2.6 kernel, and Debian stable ("woody", at the time) had the 2.2 kernel but it was marked as "experimental", and the old well-tested 2.0 kernel was recommended.00:50
unixbsdascii is a 4.9.0-1100:50
unixbsdoh yeah, i recall00:50
unixbsdthat debian was way so old, you couldnt imagine.00:51
unixbsdI needed a 2.4 for fast but no usb, 2.6 was usb revelation00:51
tsadokI mean, in terms of the number of months, it wasn't THAT old by today's standards.  But things changed much faster back then.00:51
tsadokIts libraries were so hopelessly out of date, no current applications could be compiled for it.00:51
tsadokWhich is why warty warthog was so successful when it came out.00:52
unixbsdwarty warthog was new gen of linux00:55
tsadokI mean, I generally date from sarge; but it's related.00:56
unixbsdI believed that it would replace debian, ... but you forgot to mention that the FREE SHIPPIGN cdroms was the must !00:56
unixbsdI still have the free shipping installation red cdroms, this was cool at the time.00:56
golinuxPlease go down memory lane on #devuan-offtopic.   Thanks00:56
unixbsdIt was just a marketing big HIT. while debian was noble and out of date with hardware support, nothing worked.00:58
unixbsdno libreoffice, no webcam driver, nothing,   crossover to run windows 95 or maybe 97 by luck00:59
unixbsdthat was primitive age of prehistory. kde fast and reliable.01:00
unixbsd*office01:00
unixbsdAlso guys, try to add lib bin and a C compiler, like clang in your devuan06:45
unixbsdthe x11 is not well installed on it, as well. firmware are there and good to run.06:45
unixbsdthe devuan live beowulf amd64 is such a mess. you forget the deb in root, and using /run for overlay, questioning?06:45
unixbsdhi11:19
unixbsdwhat are the minimum debs to have a working chroot . ?   linux-base, password, and which next?11:19
unixbsdthe very minimum.11:19
iv4nshm4k0vunixbsd: Something like libc6 is the very minimum, I'd think.  What do you need it for, though?  For me, # debootstrap --variant=minbase worked rather well so far.  (At least as well as to install a bunch of other packages I consider "base".  Like, say, apg and unzip.)12:17
unixbsdfrom min deboostrap, the deb:   dpkg -x *libc* /target ; chroot /target would work?12:21
unixbsdI try to reduce the size from 335MB devuan base to minimum12:21
unixbsdI need about 50 MB around12:22
unixbsdthis is crazy really12:24
unixbsdthe debootstrap base of beowulf is 711 MB !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!12:24
ShorTie50 MB doesn't leave much room for apt12:28
ShorTiewhat do you want to do in this chroot ??12:28
ShorTieabsolute smallest chroot i'd guess like these  https://linuxfromscratch.org/lfs/view/stable/chapter06/chapter06.html12:30
ShorTieyou need binutils to umpak deb's12:32
onefangIf you use something like busybox or toybox, you can get smaller than LFS.12:32
onefangLFS is a "compile the lot yourself" system, not package based.12:32
ShorTietrue12:33
ShorTiei just used LFS for the list of basic stuff12:34
ShorTiehow he gets them, got me12:35
ShorTiebut you need binutils and tar to unpack debs12:36
Walexunixbsd: you need at least packages marked "essential".12:48
Walexunixbsd: anyhow there are other distros that aim at minimality for containers etc., some of them are Debian forks too.12:48
Walexand there are several distros based on the much smaller MUSL: https://wiki.musl-libc.org/projects-using-musl.html12:50
Walexunixbsd: you can sort this table by "Image Size": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light-weight_Linux_distribution#Comparison12:51
iv4nshm4k0vunixbsd: Re. "the debootstrap base of beowulf is 711 MB !!", that doesn't seem right.  My --variant=minbase debootstrap of (last year's, granted) Debian Bullseye is only 110 MiB.  Did you clean things like /var/lib/apt/lists/ and /var/cache/apt/ after debootstrap?13:30
unixbsdwith added: minvariant=minbase it is 293MB13:49
iv4nshm4k0vunixbsd: Check the top of # du -x --all -- /chroot | sort -srn | less ?13:50
onefangThat should be --variant=minbase13:51
iv4nshm4k0vI expect that around 80 MiB to be added for _Packages lists, and perhaps half that (?) more for package descriptions.  And there'd be the downloaded .debs under /var/cache/apt/packages, of course.13:53
unixbsdthis confirms it:14:06
unixbsd pwd ; debootstrap   --no-check-gpg --variant=minbase   beowulf    .      http://deb.devuan.org/merged14:06
unixbsdchroot  . ; apt-get clean14:06
unixbsd   df -h   returns:   /dev/sda7        49G  219M   47G   1% /media/sda7     <-- so about 219MB, so wiithout even dhclient and so on. Man, this is really a lot.14:07
unixbsdand I forgot, without vmlinuz and /lib/modules also.14:08
iv4nshm4k0vunixbsd: # apt-get clean does /not/ clean neither /var/lib/apt/lists nor /var/cache/apt/*cache.bin , which are only needed for APT.  Once you have all the packages installed via APT, those can be removed.  (And you can get them back via # apt-get update , of course.)14:08
unixbsdok, rm -rf to force that delete and get spce14:09
unixbsdrm -rf /var/cache/apt/  , after: /dev/sda7        49G  219M   47G   1% /media/sda714:09
unixbsdrm -rf /media/sda7/var/cache/ ; returns:   /dev/sda7        49G  218M   47G   1% /media/sda14:10
iv4nshm4k0vunixbsd: Better rm /without/ -r, for the directories are needed for APT to work.  Also: /var/lib/apt/lists.14:10
unixbsdI need about 50-100MB devuan. 300 mb is too large to make a live usb memstick.14:11
iv4nshm4k0vunixbsd: Other than that, I'll need the du | sort output to figure out what went wrong.14:12
iv4nshm4k0vunixbsd: Also, why '300 mb is too large'?14:12
unixbsdit is quite a lot 300 mb for a linux14:13
unixbsdwait I pastebin the list of debs... with minbase... perl?? do we need perl.14:13
unixbsdminbase has about 220MB: links https://termbin.com/4gg9    (without kernel yet!)14:14
iv4nshm4k0vunixbsd: 300M was large a decade ago; now it's rather the norm.  Note, however, that for a /Live/ install (as in, with live-boot and possibly live-config) you can use Squashfs, which will reduce the flash footprint by half.14:15
unixbsdyet luckily the squashfs makes it smaller14:16
unixbsdyeah14:16
unixbsdI will try to reduce bit more with hand ... dpkg -x file.deb /targetroot/14:16
unixbsdwe need base*.deb libc6* libext* init* sysvini*14:17
iv4nshm4k0vunixbsd: I'm pretty sure that out of your 220 MB, some 100 MB are /not/ part of any package.  /var/lib/apt/lists seem a likely culprit.14:24
unixbsdless than 300 MB (including the kernel) for devuan seems not possible.14:25
unixbsdI guess I muzst give up devuan for live memstick, I will go LFS.14:25
iv4nshm4k0vunixbsd: For Debian Buster, my Live images were about 253 MiB.  That included such packages as screen and heimdal-clients.  For Debian Bullseye, I'd aim for about 300 MiB, right.14:27
unixbsdI want a live running on less than 100 MB.  My slackware live is just 46MB.14:28
iv4nshm4k0v(... Ah, I also have locales-all there...)14:30
iv4nshm4k0vunixbsd: It's your call, obviously, but I'd venture to guess that such a lightweight GNU/Linux Live wouldn't be much useful to me.14:30
unixbsdthe cool thing with debian is that it is debian, lot of tools14:32
iv4nshm4k0vunixbsd: Yep.  My point is that 'lot of tools' means 'lot of space.'  E. g., my 'system' installs of recent Debian versions are around 2 GiB.14:35
iv4nshm4k0vISTR it used to be half that a decade ago; though, obviously, my toolset has since changed considerably.14:37
unixbsdwell, just need the min to start the live, and then apt-get can be fetched maybe. aptt is bit too big14:37
unixbsdiv4nshm4k0v: it is not an "excuse" because other OSs are larger and "un"efficients14:45
iv4nshm4k0vunixbsd: It's not about excuses, but rather tradeoffs, I'd think.14:45
unixbsdwe say something like "to have good conscience"14:46
* iv4nshm4k0v says that if one wants an OS that fits a 180 KB diskette, one should stick to CP/M14:47
iv4nshm4k0v(No offense intended.)14:47
ShorTiedon't they already have a live image to install from ??14:47
ShorTiewhat is wrong with it ??14:47
unixbsdiv4nshm4k0v: I started on CP/M, it was a nice sysetm14:48
unixbsdIBM arrived, cp/m became nothing, and MS became what it is today ;)14:48
iv4nshm4k0vShorTie: Pre-made Live images usually include useless stuff (like, say, XFCE) and exclude useful stuff (like, say, heimdal-clients and screen.)  In the specific case of Debian proper, they're also Systemd-based.14:48
ShorTieoh really14:49
unixbsda distro that removes " less " shows how much they didnt understand anything about UNIX.14:50
unixbsdapt-get install links    ... not found. like ubuntu14:50
fsmithredlinks214:52
unixbsdwe still at 1.03 in openbsd ;) links 1.0314:53
fsmithredlinks is found here. Something missing from your sources.list?14:54
fsmithredit's in beowulf main14:54
fsmithredalso in chimaera and ceres14:55
unixbsd what my shame, my live image of devuan runs on a zcat of 250 MB. anyhow.15:01
fsmithredthey do make usb sticks bigger than 1GB now.15:08
unixbsdMy 16MB memstick rescue is smaller... ok. I give my new version based on devuan : pcmedkit15:10
ham5urgI try to copy from a webdav-directory to a local one via rsync -a user\@example\.org@http://example.org/ /local_dir15:47
ham5urgThe username is an email-address and it looks like I wrongly escaped the "@" and ".".15:48
unixbsdI got a little live... https://gitlab.com/openbsd98324/pcmedkit/-/blob/master/release-v4/pcmedkit-memstick-amd64-v4-release-ramdisk-devuan-plus.img20:39
unixbsdactually the filesystem.squashfs is about 160MB. quite ok actually, using ascii.20:40
iv4nshm4k0vunixbsd: Note that you don't need 30+ MiB (uncompressed size) var/lib/apt/lists/deb.devuan.org_merged_dists_ascii_main_binary-amd64_Packages on your Squashfs.  Strictly speaking, you don't need a 22 MiB boot/ there, either.21:10
iv4nshm4k0vunixbsd: You can get rid of *-old files under var/lib and var/cache there as well.  But most of all, you can use mksquashfs -always-use-fragments option.21:13
iv4nshm4k0v(ISTR that Squashfs compression only applies to fragments, /not/ unfragmented files.)21:13
iv4nshm4k0vConfiguring templatedb in /etc/debconf.conf as follows may also help: Name: templatedb Driver: PackageDir Mode: 644 Directory: /var/cache/debconf/templates.d .21:17
unixbsdiv4nshm4k0v:  thank you. I will progreses in live making21:21
unixbsdiv4nshm4k0v: currently my live devuan asii is gzipped 200 mb, but it will be small sitll21:22
unixbsddevuan live on about 200 MB, only now, but well, it is way too large. Maybe I should use cpio and initrd to have it way smaller.21:47
unixbsd200mbg https://gitlab.com/openbsd98324/pcmedkit/-/raw/master/release-v5/pcmedkit-memstick-amd64-v5-release-ramdisk-devuan-200mb.img.gz21:47
unixbsdOn 400MB, I managed to put Devuan with the content: C compiler (gcc and make), debootstrap, wpa_supplicant for wifi, fdisk, ifconfig, ifupdown, testdisk, vim, mpg123, partimage, xfsprogs, ntfs-3g, wodim, links, nano, ... and also: + NetBSD + Slackware.22:31

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