libera/#devuan/ Wednesday, 2021-07-14

kasslehi, anyone have experience using simple-cdd to build custom devuan installer ISO ?04:27
Xenguykassle, talk to fsmithred04:56
XenguyHe's probably asleep now, but idle til tomorrow04:58
golinuxkassle: Have you ever tried refractasnapshot?05:19
kassleXenguy_: noted, will wait for his availability07:51
kasslegolinux: AFAIK, refracta is for livecd. what i want to build is installer with preseeded profile07:52
golinuxkassle:  Ah, OK.07:59
aplainzetakindDoes apt-get remove not block if there are still installed dependencies?09:44
aplainzetakindCould I have accidentally broken the dependency tree?09:44
luna-is-hereIf you remove a package that other packages depend on with apt-get it will remove those packages too.09:47
aplainzetakindOK.09:47
luna-is-hereIf you think you have missing dependencies try runnin:09:48
luna-is-here  apt-get install --fix-broken09:48
luna-is-here*running09:48
aplainzetakindluna-is-here: Thing look fine there.09:48
aplainzetakindSomething pulled in network-manager, I removed it, but the openrc service is still up. I can't figure out what provides that service.09:49
luna-is-hereWhat do you mean by "still up"? The file /etc/init.d/network-manager is contained in the package network-manager and should be removed when the package ist removed.09:58
aplainzetakindI rebooted and rc-status still shows it.10:08
aplainzetakindLet me reboot once more.10:08
aplainzetakindIt's still there.10:20
aplainzetakindwhen I `aptitude search network-manager`, the network-manager line has a `c` at the beginning.10:22
aplainzetakindI'm not sure what letter means what, but i seems to mean installed, p seems to be everything else (package?) but what is c?10:22
aplainzetakindThere's another unrelated package I manually removed which shows up c.10:23
uncloudedI don't use aptitude but does it mean that configuration is left behind?  that used to be the difference between "remove" and "purge" a long time ago10:24
debdogconfirmed. c == configured.10:25
uncloudedaplainzetakind: does "dpkg -S" help to find the package that owns the openrc script?  For example: `dpkg -S /etc/init.d/aoetools`: "aoetools: /etc/init.d/aoetools"10:29
aplainzetakindunclouded: Well it says network-manager owns it.10:31
aplainzetakindI should try purge I guess.10:31
aplainzetakindBut how does that service get started without errors.10:31
uncloudedis it really running according to `ps`?  you can't start a process without the executable obviously10:32
aplainzetakindI pgreped 'nm' and 'network', no such thing.10:33
aplainzetakindWell purging got rid of it.10:37
uncloudednot the same version, but the only place I have network manager is Debian 10 and "Network" is capitalised there: `pgrep netw` shows nothing but `pgrep Netw` shows a process10:37
uncloudedcool10:37
aplainzetakindBut I'm puzzled, I definitely didn't install it explicitly, and I am just setting up the system so I haven't installed anything else that may have pulled it in, so how come it can be removed without issues?10:38
aplainzetakindDo things which are not hard dependencies but are recommended also get pulled in?10:38
aplainzetakinds/I haven't installed/I haven't uninstalled/10:39
uncloudeddoes aptitude use apt or otherwise log to /var/log/apt like apt does?  I can grep there to see what brought what in when10:39
aplainzetakindI really don't know what I'm doing so well, so I'm not sure. I'll check/10:40
aplainzetakindBut I used aptitude for its search stuff, never installed/removed with it, so it shouldn't be an issue.10:40
aplainzetakindSo tlp pulled it in, but it's still installed and running.10:42
aplainzetakindWeird.10:43
uncloudedcould it have been installed as a "recommendation", which would explain why it could be subsequently removed without issue?  I have `alias i='apt install --no-install-recommends´` to avoid installing recommended packages10:43
aplainzetakindArgh.10:45
uncloudedyup: tlp recommends tlp-rdw, which depends on network-manager10:45
aplainzetakindInstalling recommendations is a pretty insane default I'd say.10:45
aplainzetakindCan I retrospectively remove all recommended stuff?10:46
aplainzetakindTrying to have a minimalist system here.10:46
uncloudedI guess it depends how OCD I am.  I once copied files across from a Windows 3.11 instllation until it worked.  I think it worked in about 4 MB of disk space in the end10:46
uncloudedsorry, no idea if you can retrospectively remove packages that were merely recommended10:47
onefangMight be better to s-tart from debootstrap if you want minimal.10:48
uncloudedif you have the option of reinstalling aplainzetakind, you could make a sorted list of installed packages and then diff that against a fresh installation to remind you what you need to install again10:49
uncloudedor you could make a fresh install in a VM, get a package list and then comare with what you have already10:50
aplainzetakindHmm. What I have/need involves dependencies of the Haskell toolchain and Haskell-built xmonad and whatnot, so I really don't want to go through that to see which dependencies pop up on the way.10:55
aplainzetakindI understand packages are flagged as manually or auto installed. Can't I filter through all installed stuff and get those which are not manually installed and not dependencies of anything?10:56
aplainzetakindI think I can get somewhere along these lines: https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/231865/how-to-find-installed-deb-packages-needlessly-marked-as-manually-installed10:58
aplainzetakindaptitude search -q -F %p '?installed ?automatic (!?reverse-depends(?installed .*))'11:03
aplainzetakind^ this finds 64 packages, I will examine more closely, but I think this is what I need.11:04
aplainzetakindAnybody notice anything suicidal in this purge list? https://dpaste.com/2U3USJKKG11:31
GyrosGeieraplainzetakind, what kind of system?11:55
GyrosGeieracpi-support-base is part of power button handling IIRC11:56
GyrosGeiergrub-efi-* might be important for booting as well11:57
GyrosGeierthose aren't essential because they aren't needed in a container11:58
aplainzetakindGyrosGeier: kind in what sense? amd64 laptop with openrc, booting efi12:14
aplainzetakindacpi-support-base was pulled in by acpid which I installed manually to get special buttons working, so probably not too essential.12:16
aplainzetakindIt seems grub-efi-* are installed during system installation. So those are also marked as automatic, which makes all this dangerous.12:18
fsmithredremoving grub-efi-amd64-signed is not a problem unless you're using secure boot12:26
fsmithredthe unsigned package will remain12:26
aplainzetakindfsmithred: Could I be using secure booth without knowing that I do?12:33
fsmithredare you dual-booting with windows?12:34
fsmithredaplainzetakind, ^^^12:35
aplainzetakindNo.12:36
fsmithredthen you don't need it and maybe never had it. Check bios/uefi settings.12:37
aplainzetakindOK, thanks.12:39
aplainzetakindIs it normal that there's no wheel group in the fresh install?20:57
djphaplainzetakind: of ... devuan?21:02
djphyeah, 'wheel' is a RedHat thing21:02
aplainzetakindI'm trying to allow my nonroot user to interact with wpa_supplicant21:05
aplainzetakindvia wpa_cli/gui21:05
fsmithredmake sure user is in netdev group21:06
djph^21:07
aplainzetakindit is21:07
fsmithrednot sure what else. I use more clicky stuff for wireless21:07
aplainzetakindSomehow got it working.21:13
aplainzetakindThere's a fake interface showing up in wpa_cli/gui21:13
aplainzetakindmy actual wireless interface is wlan0, but there's this p2p-dev-wlan021:14
aplainzetakindnvm found the solution.21:16
djphoh, what was it?21:18
fsmithredan airboat just went by on the lake. Sounded kinda like there was a DC-3 revving up in the next room.21:21
fsmithredI need a potato cannon.21:21
debdoglike an ekranoplan?21:23
debdogor a DC-3 with floats?21:23
fsmithredhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airboat21:23
aplainzetakinddjph: https://superuser.com/a/148537621:24
fsmithredjust a boat with a big fan21:24
debdogahh21:24
fsmithredI guess they are good in the Everglades for two reasons21:24
fsmithred1. no outboard motor to drag on the bottom of shallow water21:24
fsmithred2. it must scare away alligators21:25
debdogoops, we're in the wrtong #channeö21:25
debdog*nnel21:25
djphaplainzetakind: well, that's a simple fix :)21:25
fsmithreduh-oh21:25
fsmithredwell, my excuse is that I just underwent a mind-altering experience.21:26
debdoghehe21:26
aplainzetakindSo I tweaked my wpa_supplicant.conf in a way which is supposed to make it accessible to netdev users.21:31
aplainzetakindBut when I boot, it is not. But then I kill it and restart it, and then it is.21:32
aplainzetakindThe thing is I don't know what starts wpa_supplicant at boot and how.21:32
aplainzetakindAh, connman is alive.21:33
aplainzetakindOK, now with connman gone, it has to be started manually, and behaves as expected. Now how to start wpa_supplicant and hand wlan0 to dhclient at startup?21:40
aplainzetakind(openrc)21:40
msiismIs anyone else experiencing occasional crashes of the X server involving multiple X sessions (for multiple users) and LibreOffice on Beowulf?21:52
fsmithredmsiism, is apparmor installed?22:09
msiismLet me check.22:09
fsmithredthere was a problem with libreoffice in live-isos with apparmor. The apparmor profile was missing or wrong. Not sure which.22:10
fsmithredI just thinking guilt by association.22:10
msiismYes, it is installed.22:10
msiismI remember , though that the VT showed some imlib-related error.22:10
fsmithredtry booting with apparmor=0 to turn it off and see if that helps22:10
msiismOkay, I will.22:10
msiismWhat other consequences will that have?22:10
fsmithredif so, there's probably a better fix22:10
fsmithredit means you'd be running without apparmor22:11
fsmithredI'm not sure what apparmor protects you from22:11
msiismOkay. :)22:11
fsmithredprobably nothing if you're the only user22:11
msiismI'll read the man page.22:11
msiismI really need to catch that error somehow. It doesn't end up in the log, as far as I've seen.22:11
msiismMaybe I've been looking at the wrong log.22:11
msiismI mean, it's not in Xorg's logs.22:12
fsmithredis bootlogd installed?22:12
fsmithredif that misses it, consider using a camera22:12
msiismYes.22:12
msiismRight, that's what I thought.22:12
msiismIt's probably still on the TTY that I'm running this X session from, so I should be able to catch it before I shutdown today.22:13
fsmithredoh, in that case, use tee when you startx22:13
msiismAh, good idea.22:13
aplainzetakindWat do I need to do to swap dhcpcd for dhclient?22:29
fsmithreddhclient command is in isc-dhcp-client22:35
fsmithredif you're going the other way, I guess you need udhcpd22:36
aplainzetakindBut certain things (such as the dhcp flag in a /etc/network/interfaces) seem to find dhclient automatically. How will they be informed of the switch?22:39
aplainzetakindAt the moment I can bring up and automatically connect to wifi at boot thanks to a stanza in /etc/network/interfaces.22:40
aplainzetakindBut it doesn't background and adds an awkward 15 second pause to my boot.22:40
aplainzetakindfsmithred: ^22:40
fsmithredI don't know.22:42
fsmithrednever used dhcpd22:42
fsmithrednot knowingly, anyway22:42
fsmithredif you're automatically connecting to a known wireless, couldn't you use static address?22:43
* nemo does that22:44
nemofirst 20 addresses of 10.0.0 are for statics22:45
nemo♥ 10.0.0 for home IPv4 - means you can do like  ssh 10.1 😃22:45
nemoand with so few machines at home, numbering them 1,2,3,4 is pretty darn easy to keep track of22:46
aplainzetakindThis is a laptop so I don't want to hardcode such things.22:46
nemoaplainzetakind: why? it can be just for that network22:46
aplainzetakindActually my only concern is to not have to manually start wpa_supplicant and dhclient after boot.22:46
aplainzetakindnemo: Hmm right, but really addressing part is not a concern at the moment.22:47
nemofair 'nuff.22:48
nemohttps://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Wpa_supplicant huh. seems like it shouldn't require anything manual22:49
* nemo shrugs22:49
aplainzetakindYes but there is an openrc service for wpa_supplicant in gentoo. Somehow, I find none in devuan.22:53
aplainzetakindIs there supposed to be one?22:53
nemoducking for gentoo and openrc... https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Network_management_using_DHCPCD#wpa_supplicant22:56
fsmithredopenrc in devuan uses the sysvinit script22:56
fsmithreds22:56
nemofsmithred: aaagh crud23:22
nemofsmithred: sorry. got my channels mixed up23:22
nemofsmithred: the house is split between gentoo and devuan right now23:22
fsmithredis it a battle?23:22
nemoheh. gotta say my lazy pragmatic side usually chooses devuan23:23
nemobut I do like the configurability of gentoo, so it is hanging on23:23
fsmithredyeah, devuan will win faster, but gentoo might win longer23:23
nemo$ ls -lt /etc | tail -n 123:24
nemodrwxr-xr-x  2 root    root       4096 Sep 11  2002 opt23:24
brocashelmthe problem with debian is it has become a shell of its former self by means of turning into another canonical/red hat, whereas gentoo and arch continue to be independently owned and with a more faithful community backing. the problem is i don't want to compile software all day long and pacman is kind of a clusterfuck compared to apt IMO23:39
djphbrocashelm: yeh, debian could've really stood out ... but ...23:47
brocashelmyeah, all that matters is devuan exists23:52

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