libera/#devuan/ Saturday, 2021-09-04

gourmorning. i understand that devuan's stable release is a bit behind the debian one, but wonder if Ceres does follow Sid closely?09:25
gnarfaceyes, ceres should be very close as it is unaltered09:33
gnarfaceand testing is only "behind" in the sense that it will break just as quickly09:33
gnarfaceto be clear09:33
gnarfacedon't confuse a couple hours of build time delay for a couple months' delay fixing enough bugs to call it "stable" officially09:34
gnarfacethey're not the same source of delay09:34
gnarfacethe latter will vary more wildly09:35
gourok, i plan to replace sid on my desktop machine with ceres and looking forward to try asap some pkgs currently in experimental (evolution, thunderbird) to decide on which mailer (providing ability to sync my contacts/calendars) to settle09:38
gnarfacekeep in mind, due to this, things might break on ceres that didn't break on sid10:00
gnarfacesomething just did actually and i don't know if it has been fixed yet10:01
gnarfacei think it was debianutils10:04
gnarfacenot sure10:04
gourgnarface: ahh, hopefully not so often...i still prefer having a bit newer packages10:17
gnarfacewell there will be chimera-backports if there aren't already11:08
gourmaybe i should just install devuan and then  wait for experimental --> ceres migration on it11:13
gnarfacewell what i would recommend doing is just using beowulf with the beowulf-backports kernel for a little longer until chimera is stable, then upgrade11:20
gnarfacejumping to ceres might or might not meet your expectations11:21
gnarfacebecause it is usually fine, as you presumed, but i heard very recently it's not fine right now11:22
gnarfaceso, unlucky timing on your part11:22
gnarfacemost the time, if there's something newer you actually need, it's in backports11:23
gnarfacenvidia drivers for example11:23
gnarfaceand kernel 5.1011:23
gourhmm..i'm using ati driver, do not bother about kernel, not sure about gnucash, iow. 4.4 vs 4.611:25
gnarfacei would check beowulf-backports for it11:26
gnarfaceoh i see11:27
gnarface4.4 is the backports one11:27
gnarfaceyea i dunno either11:27
gourif gnucash will run fine, i might stay on stable for some time before jumping to ceres....what about runit experience? hopefully it's the same (experience). my netbook is on the ceres, but i'm not updating regularly and it's fine11:28
gnarfaceif runit is working for you on sid it should be fine on ceres too11:28
gnarfacethe only complaint i've heard about runit was incomplete startup scripts, which wouldn't be different between the two11:29
gnarfacei can't guarantee it would be identical in beowulf too, but if there are any differences in beowulf they're likely fixes debian doesn't have11:29
gnarfacethat isn't one of the more widely used inits though11:30
gnarfacei can't be confident i've heard every problem about it11:30
gourgnarface: i use runit on devuan-powered netbook, debian/sid is (still) on systemd :-(11:30
gnarfaceoh i thought you were saying you had managed to get debian to use it at whatever cost11:31
gourwell, i practically use just few services like ntp, apcupsd, taskd...nothing fancy11:31
gourno, if gnucash (4.4) on beowulf can read my current 4.6 files, then i could install beowulf and wait for ceres until it gets more stable11:33
gnarfaceif you already have 4.6 files you have to import i wouldn't risk it12:02
gnarfacei don't know though12:02
* gour is rewatching https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_AIw9bGogo while waiting for an answer in #gnucash in regard of possible compatibility issues12:29
gouri'm advised to use 4.6 via e.g. flatpak release...so elt me finish watching the video then i'm going to install devuan on my desktop as well12:46
furrymcgeeI think nix is the better than flatpak13:16
gourok, i'm going to do devuan install on my main machine...see you later14:01
seerecursion[m]I would just use an appimage. A lot easier to manage than flatpak (chmod +x and you are good to go)14:20
gnarfacewell is there a reason the ceres one can't be compiled?  is that known for sure?14:20
seerecursion[m]The only thing is that some projects are still not making their own appimage bins, so you depend on third party stuff14:21
gnarfacemaybe it wouldn't be hard to backport...14:21
seerecursion[m]Maybe I will make a PKGBUILD to put in the MPR14:21
seerecursion[m]It is easy to convert them from Arch to Deb14:22
Guest78I have a problem with my system sudenly failing to properly detect mouse click.15:09
Guest78It works in a way, that it randomly detect a constantly pushed left mouse click.15:11
Guest78I had no such issue some time ago. How do I fix this?15:11
Guest78This isn't a mouse related problem.15:11
Guest78The mouse itself isn't an issue.15:11
Guest78And this problem stops after a restart, but It can repeat again, in an unpredictable manner.15:12
Guest78Could somebody help?15:13
gnarfaceGuest78: is this with wine?15:21
Guest78gnarface: I am not using wine when this happens.15:23
Guest78But it is installed.15:23
gnarfacefirefox?15:23
Guest78gnarface Yes. I have it usually turned on all the time.15:24
gnarfacehave you tried closing firefox when it happens, instead of rebooting?15:25
Guest78Didn't yet.15:25
gnarfacethere's a possibility for this to happen with certain programs if you hold the mouse button down while dragging it out of the window15:25
Guest78It happened sometimes to start working again without rebooting, or closing the firefox, though.15:25
Guest78In an unpredictable manner, though.15:26
gnarfaceyes, you would in theory be able to make it work again by holding the mouse button down while dragging it back into the window, i think15:26
gnarfaceor even just clicking it that window again once grabbing focus15:26
gnarfacethis could be exacerbated by focus settings15:26
gnarfaceit might be a bug too, but what you're describing i've seen with expected functionality15:27
Guest78gnarface This happened nearly in every case when the firefox worked in the background though. I was on the other active window.15:27
Guest78Does it matters?15:27
gnarfacehmm, yea i think it would matter15:27
gnarfacebut we still have to find some instigating cause15:27
gnarfaceany ideas how to recreate it?15:28
Guest78Also, I changed my connection n-m to the connman, before it started to happen.15:29
Guest78Don't know it could be related.15:29
Guest78if it could be related.*15:29
fsmithredshouldn't be. I've changed back and forth between n-m and connman a few times in chimaera.15:29
Guest78I don't know how to recreate it. It just randomly happens to me.15:30
Guest78I also installed the macchanger package in that time. It seems to not work properly, but it was closed when this happened.15:31
gnarfacei mean, it's worth mentioning this does match the pattern of hardware failure normal for mouse buttons with piezo switches15:33
fsmithredor even the usb port15:33
fsmithredtail -f /var/log/messages15:33
gnarfacewell he implied it's only the mouse button, and movement still works15:34
fsmithredand then wiggle the usb plug to see if it disconnects15:34
gnarfacemovement still works, right Guest78?15:34
fsmithredoh15:34
fsmithredonly fix I've ever done for failing mouse button is new mouse.15:34
Guest78Sep  4 15:00:34 devuan kernel: [12667.409241] iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: Applying debug destination EXTERNAL_DRAM15:35
Guest78Sep  4 15:00:34 devuan kernel: [12667.488517] iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: Applying debug destination EXTERNAL_DRAM15:35
Guest78Sep  4 15:00:34 devuan kernel: [12667.489985] iwlwifi 0000:03:00.0: FW already configured (0) - re-configuring15:35
Guest78Sep  4 15:00:34 devuan kernel: [12667.527291] wlan0: deauthenticated from 18:01:f1:6f:9a:4e (Reason: 7=CLASS3_FRAME_FROM_NONASSOC_STA)15:35
Guest78Sep  4 15:00:34 devuan kernel: [12667.671711] wlan0: authenticate with 18:01:f1:6f:9a:4e15:35
Guest78Sep  4 15:00:34 devuan kernel: [12667.674017] wlan0: send auth to 18:01:f1:6f:9a:4e (try 1/3)15:35
Guest78Sep  4 15:00:34 devuan kernel: [12667.680443] wlan0: authenticated15:35
Guest78Sep  4 15:00:34 devuan kernel: [12667.683419] wlan0: associate with 18:01:f1:6f:9a:4e (try 1/3)15:35
Guest78Sep  4 15:00:34 devuan kernel: [12667.703741] wlan0: RX AssocResp from 18:01:f1:6f:9a:4e (capab=0x431 status=0 aid=6)15:35
Guest78Sep  4 15:00:34 devuan kernel: [12667.705654] wlan0: associated15:35
Guest78tail -f /var/log/messages output.15:35
gnarfaceit'll keep updating as the file updates15:35
gnarfacewatch it for mouse errors15:35
gnarfacethat's all wifi stuff15:35
fsmithredit's dangerous to post multiple lines. Sometime the bot will boot you.15:35
brocashelmuse dpaste.org15:35
gnarfaceany chance to use a different mouse too?15:35
Guest78Thanks. I will use that.15:36
fsmithredGuest78, if the mouse plug is loose, you will see usb disconnect and connect messages15:36
fsmithredwhen you move it15:36
gnarfaceif you have a second mouse to test though that would help to isolate the behavior15:36
fsmithredyou won't need to paste them The messages are clear.15:36
Guest78It doesn't seem to be that loose.15:36
fsmithredok15:36
fsmithredwell, don't go by feel15:36
Guest78Also, the mouse whel and right button works fine.15:37
Guest78whell*15:37
Guest78And mouse movement still works when this happens.15:37
Guest78Only the left button was affected.15:38
gnarfacecan you restart your window manager by hotkey?15:38
gnarfaceor by keyboard, anyway?15:38
gnarfacethat might work too and save time15:39
Guest78I can try with a different mouse, but I doubt if it would do any difference as the restarting fixes this, and reconnecting mouse does not.15:39
gnarfaceunderstood, just try restarting only the window manager too15:39
* gour is greeting everyone from a fresh ceres installation15:39
gnarfacethat's a good test for both cases15:39
gnarfacegour: congrats15:40
gour...still restoring data and tweakign everything15:40
Guest78I can restart the window manager. What shortcuts do I use for that?15:41
fsmithredalt-prntscreen-k15:41
Guest78It would be only a temporary and symptomatic treatment , though.15:41
gnarfacefsmithred: do we still need to pin back debianutils to some version in ceres?15:41
fsmithredmaybe15:42
fsmithredthat was a discussion in -dev for building packages15:42
fsmithredfew days ago15:42
Guest13Its me again. I just tried that shortcut for restarting the window manager.15:45
Guest13I will try that when this issue happens again, if it needed for the "test", and message you about this.15:47
ham5urgI debootstraped a Devuan and want to change the keyboard-layout without using dpkg-reconfigure (to script / automatize it). I looked at many sites but no informations about scripting. I learned that locales are not a keyboard layout, for what are locales used?19:32
fsmithredham5urg, look in /etc/default/19:41
fsmithredXKBLAYOUT="us"19:42
ham5urghttp://paste.debian.net/1210408/19:43
ham5urgBut my keyboard is still in US-layout19:43
fsmithredinstead of 'dpkg-reconfigure keyboard-configuration19:43
fsmithredmaybe reboot is needed?19:44
ham5urgThe console has the correct layout now. But inside Gnome it hasn't19:46
fsmithredhm19:46
fsmithredI think I can try something.19:46
ham5urgThe Gnome Language is German now. But still the keyboard has not switched. Hm19:47
ham5urgIndeed, the Gnome Settings do show the language EN.19:48
fsmithredkeyboard layout settings in gnome?19:49
ham5urgYes19:49
ham5urgHow can Gnome use the console settings for their settings without user interaction?19:49
fsmithredI just booted a live-iso with gnome in Italian.19:49
ham5urgok19:49
fsmithredunfortunately, I'm greeted with a long message and some choices I can't understand.19:49
fsmithredmaybe I'll just press ENTER19:50
fsmithredanyway, this relied on whatever the live-config scripts do with locale and keyboard-layout19:50
ham5urgYes19:51
ham5urgI will try to ask gnome-people19:51
fsmithredthe message is something about new language19:51
rsi recently explored modifying the keyboard system wide recently via /usr/share/ but found they wouldn't stick. i was remapping caps lock to hyper. it worked but until i figure out how to disable the toggle functionality those mods have failed19:52
ham5urgAnyway, thanks for help19:52
fsmithredoh shit. It's complaining about the name of the user's home. I have no idea what that's about.19:52
fsmithredok, I got us keyboard with Italian lang. In xfce I get the same keyboard layout as the locale.19:54
fsmithredin live-isos made the same way as this one19:54
ham5urgLooks like Gnome uses it's own settings and is out of touch of the console settings.19:55
fsmithredthat's what I thought, and I not surprised.20:07
fsmithredI'm20:07
rwpThis won't fix GNOME (what could? rm maybe?) but in my X startup customization I use: setxkbmap -layout us -option compose:menu -option terminate:ctrl_alt_bksp20:11
rwpThat sets the base state.  Followed by an xmodmap config file for more customization: xmodmap .xmodmap20:11
rwpIt's the "-layout us" which may point to "-layout de" as being useful for your purposes.20:12
ham5urgGnome goes the Android-way in my eyes20:19
ham5urgFor what are locales used?20:38
ham5urgSome sort of fonts?20:39
blockheadi beleive date format settings also?20:41
fsmithredlocales is for setting the system language20:42
fsmithredtzdata sets the time zone20:42
rwpham5urg, locales are used for localization of user messages.  By userland programs.  Such as when "ls" says "No such file or directory" in C.POSIX but German in de_DE.UTF-820:43
rwphttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internationalization_and_localization20:44
rwpThat's where i18n and l10n abbreviations emerge from because i18n is 'i' 18 characters 'n' and much shorter.  Same for l10n and localization.20:44
ham5urgDo programs (like ls) do use some library to format their output according to the active locales?20:46
fsmithredyeah, they drop files in /usr/share/locale/20:46
rwpYes.  See the man page for gettext(3) "man 3 gettext".  That's used in programs for the translations.20:49
ham5urgThanks guys, I got an understanding of locales.20:51
fsmithredalso see /etc/locale.gen which shows which languages are configured or not. (uncommented or not)20:56
rwpAnd if looking at /etc/locale.gen directly then also see "man locale-gen" which acts upon that configuration.20:59
* Tenkawa notes dpkg-reconfigure locales is a nice way to show/reconfigure that list too21:24
Tenkawaand select default21:24

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