libera/#devuan/ Saturday, 2021-12-18

critris default-jdk safe to install now, or should i wait a few more days? (regarding l4j)01:57
Hydragyrumjdk isn't going to log stuff randomly on it's own01:58
Hydragyrumthe risk lies in things using log4j which accept arbitrary data from the network01:58
critryes. but without jre any l4j i don't know about can't run.02:00
Hydragyrumfair point, but I'd argue that a firewall is the solution instead02:01
Hydragyrumif nothing touches your network ports where you don't know it's ok, then there isn't stuff to get logged02:02
critragreed02:02
UsLyes, a decent WAF module in any decent FW would stop log4j at the first step. Goes to show how many unprotected systems there are out there.02:36
UsLoops, I thought this was offtopic channel.02:36
gnarfacehaving a problem with wifi devices disconnecting almost immediately after authentication unless a constant ping is running03:39
gnarfacenot sure if it's a hostapd configuration issue or a driver bug or what03:39
gnarfaceanyone seen this?03:39
gnarfacesignal strength is very suspect too03:40
gnarfacei don't suspect a power management issue at the client end because it's not happening with other routers03:41
XenguyNever heard of it, but sounds weird04:04
raindodgerHaven't had the same issue, but I can't really test since I use an ethernet cable instead of Wi-Fi. Maybe try putting your Wi-Fi interface down and back up again?04:25
raindodgerUse this command to find out what your interface is04:25
raindodger~$ ifconfig04:25
raindodgerIt will likely be wlan0 or maybe wlp3s0. Then use this command to take it down04:26
* Xenguy uses the cable also...04:26
raindodger~$ ifconfig [interface-name] down04:26
raindodgerThen up again and see if it helps04:26
voilais libvirt proprietary trash?04:33
XenguyUnfortunately someone decided to deprecate the 'ifconfig' command, although it still works here as root04:33
XenguyI think 'ip' is the command replacement du jour, but not totally sure04:33
voilathat or nmap seems to be the fad04:34
voilaplease tell me i'm making a mistake in not seeing libvirt anywhere in the repo04:38
HydragyrumXenguy: yes, iproute2 (ip command) is the currently preferred interface on linux these days04:56
XenguyThanks04:57
raindodgerI still use ifconfig because it just werks (also, habit). Although requiring root privileges is a little annoying sometimes04:59
XenguyNot a showstopper, but the great thing about *nix is that it's perfect already and doesn't need to change  = )04:59
XenguyAnd yet, change it does...05:00
XenguyWe just draw that line at systemd  : -)05:00
raindodger@voila libvirt doesn't appear to be in Devuan's main repos, but there is a package called libvirt0. Idk if it does the same tasks though05:00
raindodgerMaybe try looking in the nonfree repos?05:00
XenguyOf course, and try apt-cache search libvirt05:00
XenguyWhat turns up?05:00
raindodgerLinux does just keep changing. Which makes sense I guess. The only thing that doesn't change, is change itself. But why, oh why, is proprietary software making itself into the GNU/Linux ecosystem?05:02
raindodgerThe Linux kernel already contains binary blobs and nonfree firmware for the Linux kernel is a thing that exists05:03
Hydragyrumraindodger: he left...05:03
raindodgerWhen Torvalds released Linux back in the 90's, I don't think that's what he would have wanted to eventually happen05:03
raindodger@Hydragyrum Ah yes, I didn't even notice...05:04
Hydragyrumwell the nonfree blobs in kernel are needed just to make half the hardware out there these days run05:04
Hydragyrumimagine having to tell people "oh yeah sorry you can't use your wifi, graphics, etc. under linux, but come on switch it's so much better"05:04
Hydragyrum"you can buy different hardware and it'll work"05:05
* Xenguy didn't notice anyone leave...05:05
XenguyWho, Bill Gates?05:05
XenguyHydragyrum, Yeah, those are the tradeoff arrangements that are going to happen when real hardware gets into the picture05:06
Hydragyrumthere *is* linux-libre kernel for people who only have hardware supported by fully-open drivers/firmware, but most people will need the non-free drivers just to be able to reasonably use linux05:06
raindodger@Hydragyrum That's true. But it wouldn't be necessary if hardware manufacturers didn't close-source most of their products. Unfortunately, most computer users are Windows users who let close-sourcing be allowed to happen05:06
XenguySure05:06
Hydragyrumraindodger: 100% agreed, open source hardware needs to become more popular05:07
XenguyThat would be cool socialist05:07
Xenguy= )05:07
Xenguyaha!05:07
XenguyFinally at last05:07
XenguyI will defeat thee!05:08
Hydragyrumthere are companies that make open source hardware, but it doesn't have enough traction to get anywhere05:08
XenguyWhat, not enough profit?05:08
Hydragyrumnot enough people care -> open source hardware doesn't make much $$ -> not much funding into developing it -> it stays mediocre05:08
raindodgerCapitalism and open-source can co-exist imo. Just make the source code publicly available, but illegal to modify for commercial gain. Most people aren't going to know how to grab the source and compile it for themselves. They'll still hand over money for pre-compiled binary05:09
XenguyWhy improve the world even more, when you can just settle for making more money05:09
XenguyMakes sense to me05:09
GoatAvengerI fear the state of free software will gradually diminish; things like Neuralink and advancements in AI are just going to outpace the rebel alliance05:10
GoatAvengerThe Empire will Strike back..05:10
Xenguyraindodger, There are various models that try to monetize FOSS, sure05:10
GoatAvengerYou don't need to monitize the software, just pay the developers to develope it, and pay the technicians and customer service folks to do their bit, etc.. etc..05:11
XenguyGoatAvenger, The rebel alliance will always be there, and we outnumber the other monkeys.  Now AI?   Hard to say05:11
onefang#devuan-offtopic strikes back!05:11
GoatAvengerthe problem is, with free software, you can't build an empire like microsoft05:11
XenguyAha!05:11
Hydragyrumyou don't need to sell your software to make money on it05:11
GoatAvengerthat requires exploitation05:11
GoatAvengerand that's what most people want to do05:11
GoatAvengerbecome obscenely rich05:11
XenguyLove that word05:11
Hydragyrumthere's a lot of companies that make money supporting their free software products (i.e. red hat, canonical)05:12
Hydragyrumand there's also a lot of money in *aaS05:12
raindodger@Hydragyrum >you don't need to sell your software to make money on it05:12
onefangOK, someone ping me when this channel gets back on topic.  Pffft05:12
Xenguyonefang, You can count on me05:13
raindodgere.g. Google with data-collection bundled in all their services.......05:13
XenguyFriday Night Fracas!05:13
GoatAvengeri'll continue this in offtopic then, if anyone cares to do so..05:13
Xenguy^^ headline05:13
GoatAvenger~ciao05:13
XenguyBut of course!05:13
raindodgerTrue. It suits off-topic, not the tech help IRC05:14
XenguyThis is supposed to be a support channel, but they refuse to label it as such in the /topic05:14
u4tanyone here use zfs? apparently it doesn't like openrc10:07
u4twondering which init/rc system i should use now (:10:08
raindodgerSysvinit just werks11:04
raindodgerrunit is nice too11:04
u4tyah i think i gonna try out runit11:04
raindodgerYeah runit works pretty well. Starts services quickly at system boot11:06
fsmithredhttps://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=371611:07
fsmithred^^^ runit discussion11:07
u4twhen i first switched to devuan i selected openrc because i had problems getting runit to run nicely (:11:07
raindodgerWhat problems did you have?11:08
u4ti forget. it was a long time ago now :D11:08
fsmithredwhen you install runit, it defaults to using sysvinit scripts, but there are sample runit scripts you can use. They work.11:09
raindodgerI remember on Beowulf I had a problem with runit not detecting the Tor daemon, so I couldn't use it to start, stop and restart Tor. But then after doing a clean install of the whole OS, the problem didn't happen again. It was really weird11:10
raindodgerI didn't know that. How come it uses sysvinit scripts?11:11
fsmithredso that stuff will work?11:12
u4traindodger: so that things don't suddenly break when switching to it (:11:12
fsmithredI think you'd have to get everyone to add runit scripts to their packages to avoid using sysv scripts11:12
u4tyah11:13
fsmithredor figure out a way to get runit to use service files11:13
raindodgerInteresting. So it's to make runit compatible with more packages?11:14
fsmithredI'd say it the other way. Packages need to change to be compatible with runit.11:15
u4tif anything it's legacy support11:15
raindodger@fsmithred That makes sense. I guess it's a little bit like renovating a house. Any additions you make need to be compatible with the existing structure.11:20
fsmithredHere's a live-iso with runit you can play with: https://get.refracta.org/files/experimental/refracta_11_runit_test_amd64-20211121_0007.iso11:21
fsmithredthere are some sample runit scripts included and some implemented11:22
u4tcan't spell runit without ruin (:11:23
fsmithredI'm happy to ruin someone's plan to dominate11:24
raindodgerThat's cool, I didn't know Devuan provided a live iso with something besides sysvinit. Thanks for that11:25
fsmithredthat's not official devuan release. That's a Refracta experimental release.11:26
fsmithredI like to play.11:26
u4twhee first large backup chunk done11:26
raindodgerOh yeah, just looked at the URL a little more closely11:27
u4ttime to try out runit11:27
raindodgerSo is Refracta a fork of Devuan that's also maintained by the same dev team?11:28
u4thm11:28
u4tshould i install runit-run or runit-init?11:28
fsmithredRefracta is a debian respin that morphed into a devuan respin, and it's maintained by me right now.11:29
u4tneato11:29
fsmithredthere were a few other refracta devs, but they're doing other things now.11:29
fsmithredrunit-init I think11:29
fsmithredand I also make the devuan-live isos11:30
u4tyah looks like runit-run is for if you still want sysvinit as your /sbin/init11:30
raindodgerAccording to apt search runit, runit-run has systemd and sysv integration while runit-init seems to be pure runit, so take your pick I guess11:30
u4tboot on runit seemed faster than openrc was11:32
u4tbut display flickered a few times before X came up11:32
raindodgerOh really, you make the Devuan live isos? That's kinda funny. I used to use TailsOS as my live distro of choice for browsing Tor, but after I decided to get away from systemd, I obviously needed a replacement11:33
fsmithreddid you try heads?11:33
raindodgerSo I settled on Devuan's live isos and use some of my own bash scripts to install some packages and make a few edits as I see fit11:34
raindodgerI heard about heads, but development seems to have slowed right down last I saw11:34
fsmithredyeah, I guess there's not much happening with heads now11:35
fsmithredsome of the devuan derivatives might be a better choice for customizing. The official live isos are full of metapackages, so removing stuff can be tricky sometimes.11:37
raindodgerUnfortunately not. Your live isos for Devuan pretty much do the trick though. I just use some bash scripts to install Tor and some other software, change sources.list to point to hidden service repos, and couple of other things I can't remember11:38
raindodgerThen I'm good to go with browsing Tor on a secure live image11:39
raindodgerMan it's been a while since I last used Devuan live though. Or Tor in general. I'll need to have a look at my scripts and go through them11:40
fsmithredI started including tor browser in refracta isos.11:40
raindodgerOh yeah? I'll download some time in the near future and give it a play test. Thanks for letting me know11:41
fsmithredbut it's easy enough to make your own11:42
fsmithredsure11:42
fsmithredyou probably should have a VM or spare partition with the installed system that makes your live isos. Then you can make a new one when tor gets updates.11:44
u4trebooting also seems faster with runit over openrc11:45
fsmithredother option is to make a persistent (rw) partition,11:45
u4tand zfsutils doesn't complain :P11:45
u4tso next few days i gotta try backing up all this data and reformatting11:45
fsmithredbut then you might want to wipe it and start fresh periodically11:45
u4t<fsmithred> other option is to make a persistent (rw) partition   << make it a ramdisk for performance reasons ;)11:46
fsmithredyou can boot the OS to ram11:47
fsmithredmaybe the persistent volume, too. Not sure about that.11:47
u4tmount the entire internet to ram11:49
u4tthen you never have to wait for a download ever again11:50
raindodgerI usually just use a spare laptop containing a master copy of my bash scripts and use that to edit them. I keep a copy of those scripts (along with a folder containing packages I need) on a USB stick. When I feel like browsing Tor, I boot into Devuan live, copy contents of USB stick into home directory, remove pen drive, execute scripts and finally connect to my router11:53
raindodgerNice and simple, although I suppose editing the actual ISO image itself would probably be a better solution11:54
u4t"editing the iso" doesn't sound like a great idea to me11:54
u4tiso9660 is not exactly designed to be a rewritable filesystem11:54
raindodgerWhy's that?11:55
fsmithredkeep a VM to make a new iso. It's pretty easy with refractasnapshot11:55
u4tthe typical way to do it is to mount/extract it, and generate a new .iso11:55
fsmithredmake any changes/updates in the vm and spin up a new iso. Takes a few minutes.11:56
u4tyah or do that (:11:56
raindodger@fsmithred oh yeah, I forgot about refractasnapshot. I remember hearing about that a while back11:56
raindodgerYou can use it to make your own isos, right?11:57
fsmithredyes11:57
fsmithredthat is its reason for existence11:57
fsmithredhttps://refracta.org/docs/readme.refractasnapshot.txt11:58
raindodgerThat's actually a pretty unique feature to add to a distro. I don't think any other distro is doing that afaik11:58
fsmithredantix has one that's similar12:01
fsmithredmiyolinux is a devuan respin that has just basic desktop or window manager with no apps and refracta tools for making your own. (Make It Your Own)12:03
raindodgerThat sounds interesting. Do you have a URL?12:06
brocashelmrefracta imo is a more minimal install that's already nicely configured. it even comes with better defaults for the sysrq key and uses alsa instead of pulse for sound. i've settled for refracta in the long run12:12
brocashelmraindodger: https://sourceforge.net/projects/miyolinux/12:12
furrymcgeenothing wrong with a rw filesystem if you have a build script like debootstrap12:13
furrymcgeethe whole iso/container/live tech requires a lot of boilerplate12:13
raindodger@brocashelm Thanks for the link. May as well check it out12:14
brocashelmyw12:15
aitorhi14:31
fsmithredhi14:32
aitorhi fsf :)14:33
fsmithredhow are you?14:33
fsmithredlol14:33
aitorvery well14:33
aitorthis morning i've been working on the website of gnuinos14:34
aitorhttps://www.gnuinos.org/14:34
aitorfeedback is welcome, particularly when it comes to my english14:34
fsmithredit looks nice14:35
fsmithredok, I'll read it14:35
aitorthanks14:35
fsmithredaitor, there are some spots that could use editing, but all of it is understandable.14:40
fsmithredI'm not up for re-writing it now. Some sentences probably need to be re-cast.14:41
aitorok14:41
fsmithredyour english is pretty good14:41
aitormmmh14:42
fsmithredlol14:42
fsmithredI didn't say it's fast, just pretty good.14:42
aitorwait a minute...14:43
fsmithredok14:43
aitorsomebody had an issue under ascii, and i'm trying to find it14:44
fsmithredforum or mailing list?14:44
aitorhere in the irc, it was related to a missing package14:45
aitorlibupower...14:45
fsmithredI recall reading that, maybe in the log14:45
aitorlibupower-glib314:46
aitorit's available in debian stretch, but missing in devuan.org, at list a couple of days ago14:47
aitormaybe the repo of devuan ascii wasn't in sync at that moment, i didn't verify today14:48
fsmithredyeah, I see it's missing in ascii14:48
fsmithredI'll pass along the message14:48
aitorok, thanks14:48
aitorfsmithred, time to eat, see you later14:51
fsmithredok, take care14:51
aitorbye14:51
furrymcgeecurious if there is a 'Directory: pool/GNUINOS/..' in Sources file15:09
matilda_Any problems running libvirt built from source?17:58
sadoon_albader[mYou could try building the one is unstable from source as a deb pkg19:02
sadoon_albader[mI did that a while ago to use 7.6.0 I think it was19:03
sadoon_albader[mAdd unstable as a deb-src (not deb) in your /etc/apt/sources.list19:03
sadoon_albader[mapt source libvirt19:04
sadoon_albader[mcd libvirt(whatever it is)19:04
sadoon_albader[mdpkg-buildpackage19:04
sadoon_albader[mLook into the options of building a deb pkg online to fit your needs19:04
sadoon_albader[mThis will be much better than just building libvirt from source19:04
sadoon_albader[mOh, he/she left..19:05
* sadoon_albader[m shoots himself19:05
aitor_Oh, sadoon_albader[m left us...20:45
sadoon_albader[mNo I'm here20:46
sadoon_albader[m:D20:46
aitor_hehe20:46
aitor_i wonder which is the goal of building libvirt from source20:48
sadoon_albader[mI had a nasty bug that apparently only hit ppc64le on the bullseye/chimaera shipped version21:24
sadoon_albader[mSo that's my reason21:24
aitor_ok, people were talking about aqemu and libvirt during these days, but i didn't read it in detail21:30

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