libera/#devuan/ Monday, 2022-05-16

systemdletesometime back, I installed beowulf to my laptop.  I'm pretty sure I asked here about the power saver and I ended up disabling it.  I just don't recall now what I did.18:17
systemdleteI do see that tlp is not installed; I am wondering if I just removed tlp.18:18
systemdleteAnyway, the laptop is running down on power within a few hours.  This might be due to the overall crumminess of the device, or it might be because I disabled the power saver.18:18
systemdleteIstr that the issue then was that the wifi was constantly quitting on me and the suggestion (I think it was) here was to disable power saver.18:20
systemdleteI want to try re-enabling the power saver again, but I don't know if simply installing tlp will accomplish that, or if I need to tweak other things also.18:20
systemdletewhen I go to re-install tlp, it wants to install about 20 packages (most of which I am pretty sure I don't want).18:22
systemdletee.g., it wants to install network-manager, but I already have wicd working just fine.18:23
rwpsystemdlete, I run tlp on my main Thinkpad laptop.  I look and see "Depends: init-system-helpers (>= 1.18~), lsb-base, hdparm, iw | wireless-tools, pciutils, rfkill, usbutils"18:24
rwpThose don't seem unreasonable to have on a mobile device.  But of course if one is not using a laptop mobile then many of those will seem unwanted.18:25
rwptlp is mostly a summary-package that does a bunch of things that it thinks is helpful.  All of which a local admin might do themselves.18:26
rwpIt is certainly possible to examine what tlp does and then do those things that you wish yourself outside of its framework.18:27
systemdlete"apt install tlp" wants to install:  dns-root-data dnsmasq-base libbluetooth3 libcpupower1 libjim0.77 libmbim-glib418:50
systemdlete  libmbim-proxy libmm-glib0 libndp0 libnm0 libqmi-glib5 libqmi-proxy libteamdctl018:50
systemdlete  linux-cpupower modemmanager network-manager ppp tlp tlp-rdw usb-modeswitch18:50
systemdlete  usb-modeswitch-data18:50
systemdlete(sorry for spamming; I thought it was one line)18:51
rwpThe global bot didn't trigger so you scraped in under the wire. :-)18:51
rwpHmm...  I definitely do not have network-manager installed.  Makes me wonder if my older version is better than the newer version.  If the newer version requires that.18:52
rwpDo you have Recommends installed on by default?  I always disable that too.  Maybe try with --no-install-recommends or whatever "apt" uses for that override?18:53
rwpWhich perhaps might canonically be "apt -o APT::Install-Recommends=0 ..." maybe.18:55
systemdleterwp:  Do you mean "suggested packages?"19:41
systemdletebecause that does display with the other info19:42
systemdleteand those are NOT included in what is to be installed19:42
systemdleterwp:  Here is what I see when I try to install tlp:   https://pastebin.com/aTeXk9eL20:04
systemdlete"apt info tlp: "   https://pastebin.com/Aa8AU3J220:08
Jjp137systemdlete, recommends are being treated as dependencies on your system (which is the default)20:09
Jjp137one of the recommends for tlp is tlp-rdw20:09
Jjp137tlp-rdw depends on network-manager20:09
Jjp137thus that also gets pulled in20:09
systemdleteso rwp's suggestion, above, --no-install-recommendds20:10
Jjp137yeah something like that20:10
systemdletecrud spelling20:10
systemdletesorry20:10
systemdletewell, the battery on the laptop went out on me about half an hour ago, so I am waiting for it to charge up again...20:10
systemdlete(total piece of crap)20:10
systemdleteperfect... thanks rwp, jjakob20:11
systemdleteoops20:11
systemdletei meant, Jjp137 and rwp20:12
systemdlete(gotta watch that completetion thingy)20:12
rwpThe Recommends are almost always too much for me.  Which is why I always disable them.20:26
rwpFor example I can't imagine a need for dns-root-data and dnsmasq-base for a tlp installation.  Yet I know that chasing through the cone of Recommends+Depends would locate the reason.20:26
rwpI don't know about apt but with apt-get one can selectively deselect individual packages with a trailing '-' such as "apt-get install tlp network-manager-" and if it isn't a hard Depends breaking the cone of dependencies then that solution will be used.20:28
rwpBut doing that is very tedious and somewhat error prone.20:28
jjakobI always add APT::Install-Suggests "0"; APT::Install-Recommends "0"; to apt.conf.d21:40
jjakobon ubuntu, debian, devuan21:40
jjakobwhen installing I see what it recommends/suggests and look up the descriptions of packages, if I want any I install them later21:41
jjakobJjp137: systemdlete: rwp:21:42
Hanicefjjakob: i would recommend to keep at least recommends activated, as some applications might have some functionality disabled without all recommended packages21:47
jjakobI would know then it's missing some recommended package and go look for it and install it21:47
jjakobI trust I'm competent enough to do that21:48
rwpjjakob, Me too!21:56
rwpThe problem is that maintainers can put anything they wish into Recommends without oversight.  Some with good recommends.  Some with very egregious ones.21:58
rwpWhich creates situations such as the above where installing a laptop power management pulls in network-manager!  WAT?!21:59
fsmithredI like to disable recommends, but before I install anything I run 'aptitude -s install <stuff>' and it show which packages are recommended but won't be installed. Then I can add any that I want when I do the real install.22:02

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