| judedon | Hello, I have a question. Is Devuan committed to software freedom to the same extent as Debian? I've read the Free Software pages on devuan.org, and the situation seems similar to Debian, but I've also read that Devuan has a somewhat different stance to that of Debian regarding providing a completely free base OS (with no non-free firmware or drivers). | 14:37 |
|---|---|---|
| djph | judedon: as I understand it, the major difference is avoiding shoving systemd down people's throats. | 14:51 |
| djph | judedon: there may also be _some_ divergence in terms of "default nonfree things" (face it, non-free drivers are the state of the world ...) | 14:52 |
| clemens3 | judedon: i would say to a higher extend.. if you obfuscate the source code or artificially increase complexity, you can say the source code is free, but all you are doing is obscuring things, making them less free.. now having said that, devuan is still a complex beast | 14:54 |
| clemens3 | judedon: just look at the number of lines in systemd.. n -> oo source and binaries get closer in meaning.. binaries are just some assembler/machine code source after all | 14:56 |
| judedon | I understand that, I very much support the init freedom campaign, however as I type I'm currently booting a Trisquel live USB to test, because I can't seem to get sound working on the linux-libre distros ive tried. So basically I'm looking for a distro that is free and supports init freedom. I have a librebooted computer, so I have no need for non-free firmware or drivers | 14:59 |
| djph | I take it you don't use wifi then? | 15:03 |
| judedon | I replaced my intel wifi card with an atheros one that uses the ath_9k driver | 15:07 |
| gnarface | judedon: the only practical difference as far as i know is that devuan netinstallers include non-free wifi firmware so they're more useful to people with laptops | 15:46 |
| gnarface | nothing will force you to actually install that firmware though | 15:46 |
| judedon | Okay, thank you | 15:47 |
| gnarface | with the exception of systemd and things that have a hard dependency on it, every effort has been made to maintain what the developers considered expected behavior in debian before the systemd mess and some other notable vandalism was introduced | 15:48 |
| gnarface | actually i guess i don't mean an exception, since systemd itself changed behavior massively | 15:50 |
| gnarface | here's a list of the packages that couldn't be included: http://packages.devuan.org/bannedpackages.txt | 15:50 |
| gnarface | devuan also still uses the old style network device names for example | 15:51 |
| gnarface | just by default; you can still change it | 15:51 |
| gnarface | but it maintains the pre-jessie default behavior | 15:51 |
| golinux | judedon: From: https://www.devuan.org/os/install | 16:00 |
| golinux | "Non-free firmware packages are available on all install media. These packages will only be installed if required by your wifi adapter. To avoid the automatic installation and loading of needed non-free firmware, choose the Expert install option during the installation process." | 16:00 |
| judedon | I just read that part, thank you very much | 16:01 |
| djph | poor judeon ... thinking that ath9k doesn't have nonfree bits. | 17:06 |
| gnarface | hmm, yea i thought so too, i should have spoken up | 17:09 |
| gnarface | i just assumed i must be remembering wrong | 17:09 |
| chomwitt | hi. in a fresh chimaera + xfce installation i see a process 'ssh-agent x-session-manager' . Does that means that i dont have to start my own ssh-agent and ssh-add so that i can add my keys to it? | 17:44 |
| gnarface | probably at least half of that | 17:46 |
| chomwitt | i see | 17:52 |
| gnarface | i can't be sure you won't still have to add keys to it manually somewhere | 17:53 |
| gnarface | i don't really know what installed that or what it's for | 17:53 |
| gnarface | i usually avoid keeping stuff like that running | 17:53 |
| gnarface | but you shouldn't need your own ssh-agent process separate from that i don't think; i think you're correct about that part at least | 17:54 |
| chomwitt | from ssh-agent man pages: If a command (and optional arguments) is given, this is executed as a subprocess of the agent. | 17:58 |
| chomwitt | and it seems x-session-manager is tied to startxfce4 | 18:00 |
| chomwitt | why would you startxfce4 as a subprocess of ssh-agent ? | 18:00 |
| gnarface | just speculating but either something to do with gnome keyring or something to do with caching all your ssh authentications | 18:03 |
| gnarface | i'm not a fan of that behavior due to my paranoia, i wouldn't have let it set this up for me | 18:04 |
| gnarface | i like my ssh-agent to exit after i'm done with it | 18:04 |
| gnarface | some people however will sacrifice any level of security just to type less | 18:04 |
| chomwitt | security vs convenience... | 18:09 |
| chomwitt | tha ssh passphrase thing reminds me sudo but in reverse! | 18:09 |
| fsmithred | in pstree here, it looks like ssh-agent and xfce4-session are two separate subprocesses of lxdm | 18:10 |
| fsmithred | ps axjf shows ssh-agent starting from xinitrc which in turn comes from lxdm-session | 18:11 |
| chomwitt | interesting | 18:12 |
| fsmithred | might be different with lightdm or slim | 18:12 |
| chomwitt | in my case slim -d -> xfce4-session -> /usr/sbin/ssh-agent x-session-manager | 18:16 |
| fsmithred | lightdm -> lightdm-session -> xfce4-session -> ssh-agent | 18:33 |
| chomwitt | i'll ask the xfce channel | 18:39 |
| used____ | ssh-agent is there to "ease" automation (avoidance) of repeated ssh key passphrase input in a session. There is a setting in Xsession.cfg for it to go away (comment the ssh agent line). | 18:47 |
| gnarface | over-automation will be the downfall of society | 18:49 |
| used____ | It already has caused that, we just haven't reached bottom yet. | 18:50 |
| gnarface | heh, perhaps so | 18:50 |
| used____ | >> chomwitt :: vi /etc/X11/Xsession.options ; comment use-ssh-agent ; restart X11 service (usually log out and in) | 18:51 |
| used____ | (log out and in on all X11 sessions) | 18:51 |
| used____ | ssh-add -L shows any "known" keys/passphrases when ssh-agent is running. | 18:52 |
| golinux | You must behave for the machine . . . | 19:00 |
| used____ | Aand our favorite bloatware just grew a bit more https://www.theregister.com/2022/06/06/linux_5_19_rc1/?td=rt-3a | 19:07 |
| chomwitt | used____, thanks for the explanation | 21:20 |
| chomwitt | although i decided to install devuan with no gui and play to see and understand better some things | 21:22 |
| chomwitt | used___ indeed commenting /etc/X11/Xsession.options i started without ssh-agent | 22:40 |
| qwestion | will devuan compile its own kernel if debian puts proprietary/blob drivers in it? | 23:28 |
| fsmithred | doubtful | 23:29 |
| fsmithred | unless maybe you know some kernel devs who would like to pick up that job | 23:29 |
| fsmithred | debian just removed the blobs a few releases ago. I doubt they would put them back. | 23:30 |
| qwestion | there was mention on distrowatch of a debate on including proprietary drivers, though i didnt follow up and am still unclear if they will simply be included in the iso/img files, out-of-kernel, in a restrictedrepo- based linux-firmware .deb file that preinstalls the drivers to usr/lib/drivers or whatever is their usual path | 23:49 |
| fsmithred | debian does not include non-free firmware in their isos. devuan does. | 23:52 |
| fsmithred | They are installed in the live isos, and there's a script to remove them. | 23:53 |
| fsmithred | In the installer isos, they are installed if your hardware needs them, and you can avoid that by selecting expert install. | 23:53 |
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