libera/#devuan/ Wednesday, 2022-07-20

systemdleteLooks like I may have cornered the problem after all:  Vbox reports that some recent linux kernels cause problems for at least some hardware.   So it seems to be a host-side vbox issue.  The problem starts somewhere after about 5.10.0-13; I am running some tests now to figure out exactly which kernel triggers it.02:13
systemdleteI replaced my memory, the board, swapped out the video card... tried multiple kernels in the VMs, etc.  Finally, I tested the 5.10.0-13 kernel and that seems to be the fix.  (Maybe -14, idk yet)02:14
systemdleteI was running at least -14 or lower a few days back.  I had left my PC running for about a month, so I missed booting the newer -15 and -16 kernels until now.02:15
systemdleteEach year, I lose more and more hair02:16
DRWhiteHi folks, tryign to upgrade to Chimaera. Easiest way to do that from Debian would be?04:10
gnarfacethe same way you'd upgrade to any debian release04:12
DRWhiteSo, same way as on the Devuan site? (From bullseye to Chimaera ?04:13
DRWhiteIt's from 9 to Chimaera. It should jsut also work the same?04:14
DRWhiteI know I have to completely remove SystemD as well though04:14
gnarfaceit should remove systemd for you04:17
gnarfacethere was a problem at one release where it would also remove the kernel, but if you just remember to re-install the kernel package before rebooting it was fine04:17
gnarfacethat problem may have been fixed by now though04:17
DRWhiteI followed the https://www.devuan.org/os/documentation/install-guides/chimaera/bullseye-to-chimaera listing04:18
DRWhiteBut that will definitely remove all the SystemD stuff that Microsoft put in?04:19
DRWhiteIs there any light weight GUI?04:19
DRWhiteXFCE is 2 GB installed04:20
Unit193openbox+tint2?04:20
DRWhiteIt's being put on a server04:21
DRWhiteBut I need to have my remote software on it.04:21
DRWhiteSo I want very very very lightweight04:21
gnarfaceif you want that lightweight you should just not use a GUI at all04:22
gnarfacebut the lightest two are probably blackbox and twm04:22
debdogyou want a remote desktop? if not ssh + xforwarding is enough, no GUI required at all04:22
gnarfacetwm is next to useless, blackbox at least positions windows automatically04:22
DRWhiteAll I want to do is access a terminal on the GUI.04:23
DRWhiteI do SSH and all first. But when the SSH has issues when an update changes the configuration... I need a way to get in04:23
gnarfacethe trick is don't install any of them during the upgrade, and just install one afterwards without the graphical login manager and permissions backend/session handling stuff04:23
debdogscreen or tmux on the server04:23
DRWhiteScreen will have the GUI how?04:24
debdogyou said console04:24
debdogerm, terminal04:24
DRWhiteBtu the remote aess uses the GUI04:24
DRWhiteBut the remote access software uses teh GUI04:25
gnarfacewhich remote access software?04:25
DRWhiteYou may think of something like Team Viewer type of thing, but something that is actually secure unlike TV04:26
gnarfacei think you don't need a GUI as badly as you think you do, but whatever04:26
gnarfacethose instructions look legit04:26
DRWhiteThe isntructions have seemed to work fine04:26
DRWhiteThe Remote software talks directly to my other server.04:27
DRWhiteMeaning I can log in from anywhere.04:27
debdogsorry, I don't understand either04:27
DRWhitebut it needs a GUI to be able to have something to show...04:27
DRWhiteIt's the down side of it all04:27
DRWhiteGUI GUI GUI, that's all they think about..04:27
DRWhiteTrying to get them to build in a CLI version04:28
gnarfacethe point debdog is trying to get at is that SSH alone can forward individual graphical windows even if you don't have the GUI installed on the remote end, this is surprisingly rare knowledge despite being a baseline feature for so many years04:28
debdogcorrect!04:29
gnarfaceyou just need some X libs to do it, not the whole Xorg install, or even any desktop window manager whatsoever04:29
DRWhiteOkay, so how will that interact with the remote software?04:29
DRWhiteWould SimpleHelp work that way by chance?04:30
gnarfacewell the single graphical window you open can still be the terminal emulator04:30
gnarfaceso it would interact with the remote software in the exact same way, only slightly faster because you don't have the added bandwidth load of forwarding the unused empty desktop space04:30
gnarfacenever heard of SimpleHelp04:30
DRWhiteThat's why I awas referring it to something like TeamViewer04:31
DRWhiteBecausze most people know what that is04:31
gnarfacewell the scenario you describe is vague but also alien enough that it just sorta automatically flags itself as something unnecessarily complicated to us, i can't be 100% sure you don't really need it, but in most cases like this the problem is merely being framed wrong04:32
debdogteamviewer is a remote desktop, right?04:32
gnarfaceiirc it's basically just a web-based vnc middleman that requires flash04:32
DRWhiteProbably Gnar04:32
gnarfacenot actually using vnc protocols but the same idea04:33
gnarfaceTBH even actually using VNC would be a better choice04:33
gnarfacebut ssh forwarding individual windows is just faster04:34
gnarfaceand saves you a lot of disk space04:34
gnarfacebecause like you said... these GUI things take up a lot of it04:34
DRWhiteSimpleHelp is a remote desktop client/server. The client is installed and it says to the SERVER that it is alive and active. So the connection is from client to server, unlike VNC, TeamViewer and all that the client talks to the server04:34
DRWhiteTVĀ  is the client PC that is talkign to where they want to connect to04:35
DRWhiteSH is the location I want to connect to, talkign to my server, and me connecting to my server to access the connection then connecting directly to the destination without having to create a new connection and such04:35
DRWhiteMake any sense?04:36
gnarfacealmost, but if i'm understanding it right, it doesn't sound trustworthy04:38
gnarfaceanyway, not my business04:38
DRWhiteWhy is it not trustworthy?04:38
DRWhiteTeamViewer is not trustworthy...04:38
clemzis mysql compatible with devuan?04:38
DRWhiteyes04:38
gnarfaceextra middlemen for no apparent reason; a system designed to allow unauditable 3rd party monitoring maybe?04:39
DRWhiteNo Gnar, all my servers.04:39
DRWhiteJust me on my servers.04:39
DRWhiteAs I said, if I can't get SSH connection, then I have to have access to my own server and data remotely so I can fix it.04:40
clemzwhat is the package name for mysql?04:40
DRWhitemariadb04:40
DRWhitemariadb-server04:40
DRWhitemariadb-common04:40
DRWhitemariadb-client04:40
gnarfaceno that's the other one, if you want actual mysql it's still in there as mysql-server, etc04:40
clemzthe mariadb documentation is telling me to run a msql command to create a database though.04:40
DRWhiteMariaDB is the server04:40
gnarfacemariadb is the fork of mysql, though it's widely respected04:41
gnarfaceit should be a drop-in replacement more or less04:41
DRWhiteit acts directly as mysql. MySQL was sold to Oracle. MariaDB is by the original creators of MySQL.04:41
gnarfacei believe actual mysql is still present though04:41
DRWhiteI've been using MariaDB since the sale, and it is a direct drop in replacement04:42
clemzWhy am i getting this? "E: Package 'mysql-server' has no installation candidate04:42
clemz"04:42
DRWhiteIt's also faster04:42
gnarfaceclemz: just use mariadb instead if that's the one that installs easier...04:42
DRWhiteThere is no mysql-server package in Devuan04:43
gnarfaceclemz: oh, sorry, yea it's not in testing or stable right now, i see it in unstable though.  just use mariadb i guess04:43
gnarfaceDRWhite: it's there, it must have just been pulled temporarily before the stable release04:43
DRWhiteI'm in Chimaera repos.04:43
gnarfacehttps://pkginfo.devuan.org/cgi-bin/policy-query.html?c=package&q=%5Emysql-server%24&x=submit04:44
gnarfacepresent in jessie, ascii, and ceres04:44
DRWhiteAnd yeah, only got the mains for standard, updates and security04:44
DRWhiteBut it looks like the update from Debian 9 to Devuan Chimaera worksed perfectly.04:45
clemzWhat other clients can i use with mariadb?04:51
gnarfacei wouldn't assume the list would be different from mysql, they should all be compatible04:54
FreelancePolicemHello. When using OpenRC, "command_user" in init scripts seems to be ignored or not working properly. No matter what I enter, the daemon remains owned by root. Moreover, the value of command_user is then appended to the command run as an argument, preceded by a colon.06:01
FreelancePolicemIs this a known issue?06:02
gnarfacenot a ton of people using openrc, stick around and be patient, someone should show up who does know eventually06:06
gnarfacemaybe check the forum too06:08
gnarfacei could only guess you might have to change something else to get the daemon to start as a different user?06:08
FreelancePolicemHuh, OK. I thought it would have been a more popular system, so I figured plenty of people in chat would have known something about it. I did some googling and couldn't seem to find anything. I was thinking this is a Devuan issue rather than an OpenRC issue, since command_user works as it ought on my Artix box.06:10
FreelancePolicemIf it's not so popular, that may have explained why I couldn't find anything, though! I'll do some digging on my own and see if I can figure out the issue.06:10
gnarfacewell06:12
gnarfaceone thing that might help to know is that it's set up like Debian's openrc install06:12
gnarfacewhich means it relies on sysvinit stuff, so there's some extra caveats that are different from the way other distros use it06:12
gnarfacei can recall one unrelated caveat about "rc-status" (i think it was called) not functioning as expected because most stuff needs root permission to actually report status so if you call it as a regular user it just gives you false feedback of some sort06:13
gnarfaceand this lead to some other issue with ... postgres i think?06:14
gnarfaceanyway, it was simple to fix though, is the thing06:14
gnarfaceopenrc is probably the most popular of the alternate init systems but most of us are still using sysvinit06:15
FreelancePolicemThanks for the advice. I admit I don't know too much about the internals of OpenRC, and where it ends vs. where sysvinit begins. From my attempts at debugging, I believe my problem is with the "start-stop-daemon" program.06:15
FreelancePolicemWell, now that I say that, I'm not so sure of that -- at any rate, there's an issue between openrc-run and start-stop-daemon's communication06:16
gnarfacestick around, someone probably knows but they're probably just asleep right now06:16
FreelancePolicemSure, thanks.06:16
rrqFreelancePolicem: fwiw, apparently "command_user" is a variable for opnrc's "start-stop-daemon.sh" and not the "start-stop-daemon" command06:17
gnarfacealso, someone has also made a replacement openrc package that works just like the upstream gentoo one but it's not officially included, but someone around here should have a download for it, i'm not sure if it's in proposed updates or not06:18
FreelancePolicemrrq: Where exactly is the .sh file located?07:55
rrqtry: dpkg -S start-stop-daemon.sh   ... useful feature :)07:58
rrqlooks like the package installs it at /lib/rc/sh/start-stop-daemon.sh07:58
FreelancePolicemMy god08:07
FreelancePolicemI think I fixed it08:07
FreelancePolicemThanks, rrq08:07
FreelancePolicemIt looks like there's a typo or something in the sh script08:08
FreelancePolicem"${command_user+--user} $command_user" should be "${command_user+--chuid} $command_user"08:08
FreelancePolicemIt looks like it's in the source for OpenRC. I don't suppose there's any use in submitting a bug report to Devuan?08:10
FreelancePolicemBut if it's in OpenRC, I am really curious why I don't have this issue on Artix. It looks like the Artix package doesn't patch the sh script08:10
rrqit'd be an upstream bugreport I suppose; debian pacakges it and devuan includes that package08:14
rrqbtw it might need --user as well (with some mangling)08:21
FreelancePolicemDo you have any reason you'd think that? It looks to me like --user is for something unrelated to what the command_user flag is supposed to be08:25
rrqI looked at the first man page example08:26
rrq--user applies to recognizing an aleardy running service while --chuid sets up for a new08:27
rrqdoesn't seem like the strongest argument for having two such flags and it certainly doesn't support the idea of using different formats08:32
FreelancePolicemIt's a bit late for me and I'm a bit drunk, so I apologize if I'm being slow. How are you thinking the command_user flag in openrc-run would have to do with asking the daemon to do something to running processes?08:32
rrqI guess that start-stop-daemon should avoid starting a service if that service is running, and --user is part of recognizing whether that is the case08:34
FreelancePolicemOh. I see where you're coming from. No, that seems to be handled elsewhere08:34
FreelancePolicemI'm not sure where elsewhere08:35
FreelancePolicemLol08:35
FreelancePolicemBut from testing having made this change, openrc can still detect if a service is running08:35
Guest5976Why is there no persistence item in my GRUB menu? link to file grub.cfg https://pastebin.com/kSVH6N1D11:20
furrymcgeethere should be some build instructions for the iso images11:49
Guest5976furrymcgee, Where?11:50
furrymcgeesorry i am not the mainainer11:51
furrymcgeei would expect something like this https://github.com/cirosantilli/x86-bare-metal-examples/tree/d217b180be4220a0b4a453f31275d38e697a99e0/multiboot/hello-world11:52
furrymcgeelook into https://git.devuan.org/explore/repos12:00
furrymcgeemaybe this https://git.devuan.org/bgstack15/installer-iso/src/branch/master/boot-efi-grub.mk12:15
rrqGuest5976: maybe it doesn;t like "linux16" (in the prior entry)12:19
Guest5976I still do not understand what is the connection with the error in the menu?12:28
furrymcgeemake sure there is no syntax error and it actually uses this file12:34
Guest5976furrymcgee, How can I find syntax errors? With what to compare?12:40
furrymcgeecompare with a working file, it wont work with syntax error12:44
Guest5976furrymcgee, With what working file to compare, if only one item is not displayed in the menu? (I formatted the text of the question incorrectly at the very beginning.)12:52
furrymcgeewe may figure it out if you link the image you are using12:55
Guest5976furrymcgee, devuan_chimaera_4.0.0_amd64_desktop-live.iso12:58
furrymcgeeyou can start with link please12:58
Guest5976furrymcgee, Links to what object?12:59
furrymcgeedevuan_chimaera_4.0.0_amd64_desktop-live.iso13:00
Guest5976furrymcgee, This iso was written to a flash drive using rufus. Now on this flash drive the files that were inside iso.13:02
Guest5976furrymcgee, Among these files \boot\grub\grub.cfg13:03
fsmithredGuest5976, did rufus make a partition for persistence and label it as such?13:07
fsmithredand did it create persistence.conf in the root of that partition?13:07
Guest5976fs,mithred, yes, i chose this option in rufus13:09
Guest5976Then I decided to add a grub menu item to make the save work.13:09
fsmithredoh, "components" in the boot command might cause trouble, but the entry should still show up in the menu.13:12
fsmithredGuest5976, do any of those menuentries work?13:15
Guest5976yes13:19
fsmithredok. I don't know what rufus does, so it's hard to know what's wrong. I'm not seeing a syntax error in that entry.13:20
fsmithredfwiw, I use this to make live-usb: https://sourceforge.net/projects/refracta/files/tools/refracta2usb-2.4.3.deb/download13:20

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