* jordila umh... long life lightweihght humble Desktops like Lxde, Xfce... ? | 00:18 | |
mason | minnesotags1: netplan is a bit painful and seems wholly unnecessary | 01:06 |
---|---|---|
TwistedFate | gah | 04:12 |
TwistedFate | my updates keep getting kept back | 04:12 |
TwistedFate | and it breaks qemu for me | 04:12 |
tuxd3v | golinux: its there a option to have fluxbox 1.3.7 into devuan? | 04:22 |
tuxd3v | the vesrion that is in the repos( 1.3.5 ) are dated from 2013.. | 04:22 |
tuxd3v | also the current version( 1.3.5 ), have some modules missing line the 'conman'.. | 04:23 |
golinux | tuxd3v: Doesn't look like any time soon: https://pkginfo.devuan.org/cgi-bin/d1pkgweb-query?search=fluxbox&release=any | 04:40 |
tuxd3v | golinux: thanks, it would be nice to have the release 1.3.7.. | 04:57 |
golinux | Whenever Debian gets it we'll get it. | 04:57 |
golinux | I suppose you could try to compile it yourself | 04:58 |
tuxd3v | yep, that is the last resort.. | 05:00 |
tuxd3v | I don't know how to make the deb packages, if not I would do it.. | 05:00 |
mason | tuxd3v: There are decent instructions out there for handcrafting backports. | 05:20 |
mason | tuxd3v: I'd recommend grabbing the 1.3.7 package from Debian experimental, or the source thereof, and building it against your ASCII or whatever: https://packages.debian.org/experimental/fluxbox | 05:22 |
mason | tuxd3v: Alternately, you can always just do a local install, and maybe even manage it with GNU Stow: https://www.gnu.org/software/stow/ | 05:23 |
tuxd3v | mason: thanks for the advice, that is an alternative indeed, maybe the fast one.. | 05:26 |
mason | tuxd3v: Building their source package should be quick and easy. Let me find some instructions... | 05:26 |
tuxd3v | I mean getting them from debian repos.. | 05:26 |
tuxd3v | Another one is getting the sources for that packages and then handcraft the packages.. | 05:27 |
mason | Well. Debian's got it for *experimental* which means it'll very likely want newer libraries than what you've got. You probably can't [or at least don't want to] use the binary package straight. | 05:27 |
mason | Here's a fairly minimal set of instructions: https://raphaelhertzog.com/2010/12/15/howto-to-rebuild-debian-packages/ | 05:28 |
mason | You'd want to download the source package directly, as we don't have that repo as far as I know, but step two and forward should apply more or less directly. | 05:29 |
mason | tuxd3v: ^ for the highlight, sorry | 05:30 |
golinux | And this is a classic: http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=38976 | 05:33 |
tuxd3v | mason: no problem | 05:39 |
tuxd3v | that was indeed the Idea :), to build them from sources, in that way, I don't need to manage packages outside the system package manager | 05:41 |
tuxd3v | I will check the dependencies of them( if they have not a so big dependency chain ) | 05:42 |
tuxd3v | thanks for the advice on that to both of you :) | 05:43 |
mason | tuxd3v: The link to the experimental package page lists the dependencies. | 05:43 |
mason | tuxd3v: If you hit a snag with something new that doesn't exist in your target environment, also snag what Devuan ships and compare that source package. It ought to be pretty straightforward shimming the newer Fluxbox into the existing package framework if you need to - Fluxbox is light by design and definition. | 05:45 |
mason | I might try switching to it this week, while I'm on vacation. Been using Openbox for years, and I'd like my WM to manage tabs for me so I can stop using the rxvt-unicode tabbed mode. | 05:46 |
mason | Plus, Openbox config is XML, and ew. | 05:47 |
tuxd3v | yeah it uses very low resources.. for ARM it his even more superb due to the low specs requirements.. :) | 05:48 |
mason | I used to run twm for that reason. | 05:49 |
tuxd3v | I didn't knew twm | 05:52 |
mason | Lighter still. | 05:52 |
tuxd3v | for me fluxbox, is a very good choice nowadays, were computers have Ram in the GB scale | 05:53 |
tuxd3v | even tought the browsers will eat almost all of it :D | 05:53 |
tuxd3v | I hd used fvwm, which is very nice | 05:54 |
tuxd3v | I have been kidding for some days with fluxbox again, and using slim and slimlock to login and lock session, and it works nicely | 05:56 |
tuxd3v | OpenBox is what I call, the minimum amount of resources for some comfortable functionality | 06:16 |
tuxd3v | Fluxbox uses more resources than openbox | 06:17 |
tuxd3v | but I think it also has extra features with, but for the extra features, it should consume a bit less memory to be in line with openbox eficiency.. but is still light | 06:18 |
Hum | I prefer dwm. In the beginning it was uncomfortable, but as I got used to it, I was the best one I have had. In past I also used icewm. | 08:12 |
zatumil | suckless wmii is great | 09:11 |
MinceR | fvwm is great | 09:21 |
zatumil | debian voting on init systems again, just as brexit lol | 09:26 |
tarzeau | zatumil: really? | 09:34 |
tarzeau | and systemd will be an non-default option? | 09:34 |
tarzeau | TEH BEST NEWS FOR THE LAST DECADE OF YEARS | 09:35 |
zatumil | dpl wants a gr | 09:35 |
tarzeau | https://www.debian.org/vote/2014/vote_003 where's the new gr? | 09:35 |
zatumil | https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2019/10/msg00002.html | 09:37 |
MinceR | i wouldn't trust it to stay that way even if they did | 09:49 |
MinceR | they could pull another jessie anytime | 09:49 |
MinceR | also, they haven't got rid of the redhat/ibm moles | 09:49 |
MinceR | mail sounds more like "waaah, waaaah, maintaining a distro is too much work" | 09:58 |
MinceR | they might as well just rebrand a fedora iso and call it a day | 09:58 |
tarzeau | zatumil: thanks for the link | 10:33 |
init2winit | anyone know if there are images for devuan arm and how well they work? or...voice me on devuan-arm? | 15:11 |
init2winit | im not registered and cannot join | 15:11 |
init2winit | like recent images, not from last summer, even if alpha | 15:12 |
tuxd3v | init2winit: yeas there are see this link: | 15:36 |
tuxd3v | https://mirror.leaseweb.com/devuan/devuan_ascii/embedded/ | 15:36 |
tuxd3v | ascii images, they work as expected, I only tested some | 15:36 |
tuxd3v | but they should work as expected.. | 15:37 |
tuxd3v | see the: | 15:38 |
tuxd3v | https://mirror.leaseweb.com/devuan/devuan_ascii/embedded/README.txt | 15:38 |
tuxd3v | for a more detailed information.. | 15:38 |
init2winit | ty tuxd3v but I was hoping for a fresher alpha...ive seen the librem5 on the d1g forum though, so the only major SoC I would like to see is rock64 rk3328 (which may also work for rk3399 which manjaro images seem to be able to target both at the same time, and maybe rk3288) | 15:45 |
init2winit | especially in light of the latest point release this week 2.1 ascii | 15:49 |
tuxd3v | rk3288 are cortex-a17 | 15:51 |
tuxd3v | they are armv7 | 15:51 |
tuxd3v | not armv8 | 15:51 |
tuxd3v | so to have a image that target the 3 you would be working in 32 bits mode | 15:51 |
tuxd3v | rk3328 and rk3399 are armv8 | 15:53 |
tuxd3v | by other words, rk3288 is aarch32 | 15:53 |
tuxd3v | rk 3328,3399 are aarch64 | 15:53 |
tuxd3v | I haven't saw librem5 in d1g | 15:54 |
tuxd3v | can you post the link? | 15:54 |
tuxd3v | :) | 15:54 |
tuxd3v | I got it ! :)) | 15:56 |
init2winit | Big appreciation to everyone for the point release though, 1 year was starting to be much to update | 15:59 |
init2winit | i personally dont need 3288, although some people might like how open the c201 is. But I really like 4gb ram on the pine64 arm64 rockchips as I said above | 16:01 |
golinux | init2winit: The Devuan arm pipeline has pretty much ground to a halt. Perhaps you could build your own with the SDK: https://devuan.org/os/distro-kit | 16:41 |
golinux | There is a version specifically for arm. | 16:42 |
golinux | Perhaps you could build and submit images to Devuan? | 16:47 |
init2winit | golinux, if I can be invited into devuan arm I might ask relevant questions I cant find answers to online to the right people... | 16:48 |
golinux | Unfortunately, I have no control over that. | 16:49 |
init2winit | i may, I have a 2-3 year x64, not sure how efficient, but maybe I can build a base from which others with the appropriate armservers or better x64 hw can compile the rest | 16:49 |
golinux | Perhaps query danielinux. | 16:50 |
init2winit | can you msg parazyd? is he still the one in charge of arm port? I literally cannot msg him either to ask | 16:50 |
golinux | He is currently non-responsive to devuan. | 16:50 |
golinux | danielinux is attempting to put something together and kramer also | 16:51 |
init2winit | parazyd is MIA for everyone you mean? | 16:55 |
init2winit | ok... | 16:55 |
golinux | Have no idea. Just not communicating with us atm. | 17:06 |
tuxd3v | I can help in my spare time with rockpi4,rockpro64,nanopi fire 3( seems impossible..but it deserves a try.. ), orangepi one plus,Olimex Lime2 | 17:08 |
tuxd3v | I am building my builder | 17:08 |
tuxd3v | I didn't knew that parazyd was away.. | 17:10 |
tuxd3v | he his a very nice person | 17:10 |
init2winit | how big is userbase/demand/downloadnumbers for arm? | 17:24 |
init2winit | golinux, in case he didnt msg you parazyd told me hes too busy these days | 17:24 |
golinux | We all have our priorities. | 17:26 |
golinux | I cannot remember the last time he communicated with me | 17:26 |
init2winit | golinux, wwho you think would know what the download stats are for the arm images? like which devices images are downloaded more frequently, at least on devuan controlled mirrors? | 21:05 |
init2winit | I also want to know which devices to buy or otherwise get, so as to have a bigger community using a device | 21:06 |
init2winit | (or image) | 21:06 |
mason | init2winit: RPi is the most popular by headcount. | 22:15 |
gnarface | that's true of the greater ARM community, but is it true about devuan too? | 22:16 |
gnarface | i imagine most of the Pis in the wild are running raspbian | 22:17 |
gnarface | speaking of which, if you're having trouble getting a Onkyo receiver to see the HDMI output of a RPi, try actually playing audio from it first. force hdmi hotplug and force hdmi audio flags in the config.txt don't help. | 22:18 |
init2winit | mason can you send the pine devices numbers? | 22:19 |
gnarface | nothing helped until i actually ran speaker-test then the receiver recognized it immediately | 22:19 |
init2winit | or basically allwinner | 22:20 |
init2winit | (sunxi) | 22:20 |
gnarface | all told, AllWinner/sunxi hardware might outnumber RPi hardware in the wild, because of the huge proliferation of their devices | 22:21 |
tuxd3v | I believe that Olinuxino Lime2, raspberry pi's( several versions ), rock64, rockpi4, are some of the boards | 22:22 |
init2winit | mason were you speaking based on hard download stats for devuan, or in general? | 22:22 |
tuxd3v | but yeah sunxi boards there are plenty | 22:22 |
gnarface | i like them a lot more, just because they're not so bandwidth constrained as the RPi hardware | 22:23 |
gnarface | well, not only because of that, but that's a big deal if you're trying to get work done | 22:23 |
mason | init2winit: Sorry, was drawn away. General numbers, observing interest across a number of platforms. | 22:24 |
mason | init2winit: I don't think there's any special about #devuan-arm, so maybe you just need to be registered? | 22:24 |
mason | s/any/&thing/ | 22:24 |
mason | bbiab | 22:25 |
specing | gnarface: but the most of that hardware is at landfills, lol | 22:25 |
specing | (sunxi) | 22:25 |
gnarface | specing: that may be true, but the other thing that is true about it is that it's priced to throw away - which not always but in this case means a better value for the amount of performance you get | 22:26 |
tuxd3v | IF I would go to buy one, I would choose maybe a rockpi4, or a raspberry pi4 for starting with.. | 22:26 |
gnarface | specing: ... well at least with the stuff from pine64, anyway. i can't speak for pricing on other vendors' sunxi stuff | 22:27 |
specing | gnarface: it is not priced to throw away, the quality is garbage | 22:27 |
tuxd3v | the rockpi4A costs 35 dollars, and has mpcie extra BUT for the 1GB Ram version | 22:27 |
init2winit | yes reg is required, but I find it overkill for small projects like devuan where there are few users and no (current) spam storms - shields can go up at times, but the weather is nice most days of the year | 22:27 |
tuxd3v | its a rk3399 inside :) | 22:27 |
gnarface | specing: well, quality control isn't quite at Broadcom levels for the hardware, but on the other hand quality control for the firmware is superior. there are honest tradeoffs | 22:27 |
init2winit | spamweather* | 22:27 |
tuxd3v | Also, they are investing in opensource mesa-panfrost driver.. | 22:28 |
tuxd3v | which will also benefit otherboards out there | 22:29 |
specing | Are there any arm boards out there that have [SO]DIMM slots and don't cost several thousand $? | 22:29 |
gnarface | heh, lemme know if you find one | 22:29 |
specing | old thinkpads at <$100 a pop are very competitive to this arm garbage | 22:30 |
gnarface | yes, as long as your electricity is free | 22:30 |
specing | they don't use much | 22:30 |
specing | 15W average | 22:30 |
gnarface | 15? i think more like 30 | 22:30 |
specing | no, 15. I have several | 22:30 |
init2winit | How would devuan fare if debian drops elogind/init-freedom in their upcoming vote? | 22:31 |
specing | at 15 W average that is 13 euros in yearly electricity | 22:31 |
specing | utterly insignificant | 22:31 |
gnarface | specing: that's still like twice what pine64 stuff uses under load | 22:31 |
gnarface | it adds up if you're building a cluster | 22:31 |
specing | gnarface: half of that power use is by screen, which pine64 does not have? | 22:32 |
gnarface | specing: some of them have screens | 22:32 |
specing | 14-15"? | 22:32 |
gnarface | specing: 14" and 11" | 22:32 |
gnarface | and they have a phone, a tablet, and a smartwatch coming soon | 22:32 |
gnarface | they just put out their 3rd netbook model | 22:33 |
specing | nice | 22:33 |
gnarface | the real issue is the good video drivers aren't done yet. once those are done, they will be able to do 4k video decoding | 22:33 |
gnarface | you won't get a 100$ thinkpad to do that | 22:34 |
specing | Why would I want that? I'm not a consumer to watch 4k videos | 22:34 |
specing | the whole video decoder is a waste of wafer | 22:35 |
gnarface | eh, it's just something lots of people are interested in getting these days, and that would definitely be a floor-shattering event on the entry cost for it | 22:36 |
init2winit | gnarface, which 3rd netbook? after the pinebookpro? I see nothing on their blog | 22:36 |
gnarface | i'll admit the thing about the thinkpad having a real PCI bus is a strong advantage | 22:36 |
specing | I know, that is why there is such proliferation of the garbage hardware | 22:36 |
specing | My use of ARM ends at cortex-m7 | 22:37 |
gnarface | init2winit: (there were 2 pinebooks before the "pro" model, a 14" and a 11" model. there was also a limited run of the 11" ones with 1080p screens) | 22:37 |
specing | If it needs to run a real operating system then ARM is no-go | 22:37 |
gnarface | eh, my experience with the raspberry pi was very disappointing, but so far the pine64 hardware is holding it's ground | 22:38 |
init2winit | thats reassuring gnarface im looking to get/use many of their devices | 22:38 |
gnarface | having ram expansion options would be nice, but it's not like you're gonna get more than 4GB in a thinkpad either | 22:38 |
specing | gnarface: I have 8GB in thinkpad | 22:39 |
gnarface | specing: not one you got for 100$, surely | 22:39 |
specing | yes, the $100 ones | 22:39 |
specing | good luck finding an arm device with more than 4GB | 22:39 |
specing | and its always soldered | 22:39 |
specing | yuck | 22:40 |
specing | they still haven't reached core2duo | 22:40 |
init2winit | gnarface, for 8gb arm, there is a seco and armstone i.mx8m devices. But not very polished for linux yet. Maybe we should ask them for free devices for devuan devs? or deeply discounted so we port to it? | 22:40 |
init2winit | specing - see above | 22:40 |
specing | init2winit: this is another problem of arm, that each individual device needs individual polishing | 22:41 |
init2winit | these are the same chips as librem5 so they should get good support in the long run, mainlining etc | 22:41 |
specing | I maintain that purism is a scam | 22:41 |
gnarface | the mainlining progress on the pine64 hardware has been rapid over the last year | 22:41 |
init2winit | specing see ebbr and uefi to make arm images run everywhere | 22:41 |
specing | uefi? yuck | 22:42 |
init2winit | ive not seen these universal images yet mentioned though in practice | 22:42 |
specing | no idea what ebbr is but it can't be good | 22:42 |
init2winit | now your just being blindly negative maybe open your mindset a little and reduce your emotional involvement in the argument | 22:42 |
init2winit | specing, | 22:43 |
specing | Sadly I am experienced | 22:43 |
gnarface | alright alright, everyone calm down. none of this matters that much | 22:43 |
init2winit | specing also see the synquacer arm server - 64gb ram...i dont think its soldered | 22:44 |
specing | everything about SoC ARM so far has been disappointing, so I'm assuming everything in the future will also be dissapointing | 22:44 |
gnarface | one thing the pine64 hardware has that i can't speak for anywhere else on multi-core systems is complete immunity to spectre&meltdown type predictive branching exploits | 22:44 |
specing | init2winit: I know there are ARM servers out there, they cost thousands and nobody supports them | 22:44 |
specing | there are also SoC-FPGA boards for $$$+ | 22:45 |
init2winit | i cant say much about support, but debian stretch image exists for the synquacer, which means devuan should be a relatively easy port, and it costs 900-1500usd last I checked - the price is on 96boards website (and on a link there ) | 22:46 |
specing | LOOK at this rich peripheral set https://www.cnx-software.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Edge-Server-Synquacer-Series-E.jpg | 22:46 |
specing | the stm32f072 for $1.5 that I have on my desk right now has more IO than that $1250 server! | 22:46 |
specing | for that money I'd just add $500 more and get a Talos | 22:47 |
specing | Haha it doesen't even have ECC ram | 22:48 |
specing | is this a joke | 22:48 |
specing | (the finished system, the mobo appears to support it) | 22:48 |
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