Wonka | haven't had problems there, and I'm running -rc kernels for years now | 00:00 |
---|---|---|
gnarface | Wonka: (which they quietly sweep under the rug instead of putting a warning label on it like they should) | 00:00 |
gnarface | but then, the primary risk for servers losing power for me is them losing power, so just keep everything on UPS, so ymmv. | 00:00 |
SuaveDandy | mason: Just to clarify. Is it a neat idea to make a dataset for /usr? I heard Bash and other user-executable programs are here. | 00:26 |
SuaveDandy | Just to clarify before debootstrapping. | 00:27 |
gnarface | dataset? | 00:27 |
SuaveDandy | ZFS dataset. | 00:28 |
SuaveDandy | So I can snapshot it seperately. | 00:28 |
mason | SuaveDandy: You're talking about a usrmerged system. Without usrmerge it's in /bin/bash. | 00:28 |
gnarface | user executable programs should be mostly residing in the followind directories: /sbin, /bin, /usr/bin, /usr/sbin | 00:28 |
mason | SuaveDandy: The script I showed you shows the directory structure I prefer, but you have to decide what you want. | 00:29 |
gnarface | (you might have stuff in /usr/local/bin and /usr/local/sbin but if you were following the rules there shouldn't be anything there you didn't put there yourself) | 00:29 |
SuaveDandy | I guess it's simpler to just snapshot the whole root except userdata so I don't have to check which software is where. | 00:30 |
SuaveDandy | Do BSDs still use /usr as /home? | 00:30 |
mason | Recursive snapshots are useful. I would snapshot user data too. User data especially. | 00:30 |
SuaveDandy | Or did they switch to /home too? | 00:30 |
MinceR | OpenBSD uses /home | 00:31 |
mason | NetBSD and OpenBSD use /home. FreeBSD and presumably DragonFly use /usr/home. | 00:31 |
mason | bbiab, dinner | 00:31 |
SuaveDandy | Wanted to try NetBSD also. It is said that it has great compatibility due to abstracting the hardware components. | 00:32 |
SuaveDandy | Very interesting architecture. | 00:32 |
SuaveDandy | Sorta like Project Treble but deeper. | 00:33 |
SuaveDandy | mason: Hey! The ZFS guide does include linux-headers-amd64 and linux-image-amd64 installation after all! | 00:37 |
SuaveDandy | You didn't have to worry. | 00:37 |
SuaveDandy | Perhaps this guide is more robust than it seems. | 00:38 |
SuaveDandy | But wait. Do locales need elogind? | 00:39 |
gnarface | SuaveDandy: locales should not need elogind | 00:44 |
gnarface | at least it didn't last i checked... | 00:45 |
gnarface | things like that have been shifting lately in a bad direction | 00:45 |
yanmaani | why is directory strucutre so bad? | 00:47 |
yanmaani | why doesn't anyone fix it? | 00:47 |
yanmaani | like why are there folders /etc and /usr? why /opt? | 00:47 |
golinux | yanmaani: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filesystem_Hierarchy_Standard | 00:51 |
SuaveDandy | Because it's not NixOS/GoboLinux/BSDs. | 00:52 |
gnarface | yanmaani: it makes a lot more sense if you remember computers that were slow enough that character counts in file paths were an actual performance issue | 00:52 |
SuaveDandy | Have problems with the structure? Use these instead. | 00:52 |
gnarface | yanmaani: (and storage issue) | 00:52 |
SuaveDandy | Okay. Gobo's too obscure. | 00:53 |
SuaveDandy | Wait. Wasn't Gobo a Debian fork? | 00:53 |
gnarface | yanmaani: but it is also designed to categorize files by type instead of by package association, because this made distributing read-only parts of the filesystem easier | 00:53 |
SuaveDandy | I remember it was. | 00:53 |
yanmaani | gnarface: they have improved since then as I understand it | 00:53 |
yanmaani | that they had problems back then I don't doubt, but why keep it now? | 00:54 |
gnarface | yanmaani: the computers? yes. but all you have to do is try running some Linux software on OSX (which works after you fix the paths) to realize why nobody who is sane and not being paid does shit like that | 00:54 |
SuaveDandy | Heard BSDs have a better directory structure and are easier to admin in that regard. | 00:54 |
yanmaani | I know there's some distros which change it | 00:54 |
MinceR | probably more of an issue with typing and printing on teletypes with slow connections | 00:54 |
yanmaani | it seems like installing all binaries in /bin is a good first step | 00:55 |
gnarface | yanmaani: there was also meant to be security barriers betweeen / and /usr | 00:55 |
SuaveDandy | NixOS uses containers. That way you can track the deps with hash names and store multiple files so you won't get into a dep hell. | 00:55 |
SuaveDandy | Multiple versions. | 00:56 |
SuaveDandy | Not files, sorry. | 00:56 |
SuaveDandy | By brain coockoogaga when it's night. | 00:56 |
gnarface | yanmaani: sorry, i've been working on trying not to accidentally do injustice to people by hiding the truth by being too polite. the simple version is it's not that complex and if it seems bad to you, your opinion is sophomoric (and the proof of that is that nobody who does understand it wants to change it anymore) | 00:57 |
stovepipe | oh god | 00:57 |
stovepipe | i was going to say, go learn A LOT more about unix | 00:57 |
gnarface | yanmaani: the words seem arcane and esoteric because they're shortened, but contextually it makes a lot of sense | 00:58 |
gnarface | yanmaani: and the barriers they provide to you are only there at first. they evaporate once you understand the context | 00:58 |
stovepipe | and other small details why all binaries are not in /bin | 00:58 |
gnarface | yanmaani: it is important you don't take this personally. they didn't do it to hold it out of your reach. | 00:58 |
stovepipe | +like | 00:59 |
gnarface | yanmaani: (and indeed it is not beyond your reach, in fact it would not even require mustering nearly as much willpower as you fear) | 00:59 |
stovepipe | slight paradigm shift | 01:00 |
stovepipe | state of mind thing | 01:00 |
gnarface | yea | 01:00 |
gnarface | can't be explained easily, but try it and you'll like it | 01:00 |
yanmaani | Try what? Using a filesystem? | 01:00 |
stovepipe | understanding why things like /etc exist at least | 01:01 |
yanmaani | https://sta.li/filesystem/ This seems like a reasonable proposal | 01:01 |
gnarface | yanmaani: no i mean literally try liking the FHS as it is, before you plan on how you're going to replace it | 01:01 |
yanmaani | and I can't think it'd break too much stuff | 01:01 |
yanmaani | I understand it as "historical path dependency reasons" | 01:01 |
yanmaani | which, yeah, I guess. | 01:01 |
stovepipe | "historical" | 01:01 |
gnarface | is sophomoric | 01:01 |
gnarface | true, but scratches only the surface, leaving you devoid of the awareness of reasoning behind it | 01:02 |
stovepipe | i also hear "cryptic" alot | 01:02 |
gnarface | cryptic, or arcane are fair, but again that's just shortened words | 01:02 |
gnarface | /usr stands for user's, /bin stands for binaries | 01:02 |
stovepipe | itrs also another initial fear type response to unix shell etc | 01:02 |
yanmaani | But /usr isn't user's stuff, that's in /home | 01:02 |
stovepipe | to brush it off as "cryptic" instead of understanding it | 01:03 |
yanmaani | I've been using the unix shell for a long time now | 01:03 |
stovepipe | userland | 01:03 |
yanmaani | I understand where the stuff is, I just can't understand why there isn't any effort to make it more sensible | 01:03 |
gnarface | yanmaani: ah but here is where you're wrong, but i put the apostrophe in the wrong place; it's "users'" | 01:03 |
stovepipe | it is perfectly sensible | 01:03 |
stovepipe | you just dont understand it | 01:03 |
stovepipe | there is no reason to make everything universal to appeal to the least common denominator, that is making everyone stupid instead of advancing humanity | 01:04 |
gnarface | yanmaani: /home is individual user's stuff. /usr is all the users shared stuff. stuff in /sbin and /bin was meant to be for administrative purposes and booting (back then putting it all on one disk was costly and rare too) | 01:04 |
mason | SuaveDandy: Eh? Not remembering being worried about something. You'll need to refresh my memory. | 01:05 |
yanmaani | But /usr isn't on a separate disk now. Why can't you merge /usr/bin/, /usr/sbin/, /bin/, and /sbin/? | 01:05 |
gnarface | yanmaani: because it would literally cost more than it is worth. | 01:05 |
gnarface | yanmaani: it's not a "can't" it's a "won't, that's stupid" | 01:05 |
stovepipe | yanmaani: filesystems are whever theyre put | 01:05 |
stovepipe | i assume you mean how distros default to a single partition install for end users | 01:05 |
stovepipe | see my above comment | 01:05 |
yanmaani | I have /home on a separate part. Do many people hae separate /usr ? | 01:06 |
gnarface | yanmaani: yea. it's actually strongly recommended for security. | 01:06 |
stovepipe | lots | 01:06 |
stovepipe | the point is to have / on a separate partition | 01:06 |
stovepipe | which ands up with all that other stuff | 01:06 |
gnarface | yanmaani: i'd recommend separate partitions for at least: /home, /usr, /tmp, /var, and / | 01:06 |
stovepipe | and var gets written al ot | 01:06 |
stovepipe | so does /usr | 01:06 |
stovepipe | and /etc | 01:06 |
stovepipe | if anyone tries to take /etc away from me i will hunt them down personally | 01:07 |
stovepipe | i didnt mean /etc needs a separate partition | 01:07 |
stovepipe | just questioning why it exists makes me nervous | 01:08 |
gnarface | yea, that gets back to my advice of "just use it until you like it" | 01:08 |
stovepipe | gives me that binary registry kind of feeling | 01:08 |
stovepipe | PC-BSD was doing that | 01:08 |
stovepipe | mystery undocumented binary registries and processes | 01:09 |
gnarface | yanmaani: for what it's worth, most of what you're complaining about, i remember having the same arguments against it when i was new. literally do what i did, and just stare at it until you like it. | 01:09 |
gnarface | yanmaani: that's the simplest advice i can give you that will lead you to the truth. actually putting it in words would probably take me years. | 01:10 |
gnarface | yanmaani: (similar to the amount of time it would take to change) | 01:10 |
stovepipe | linux on the desktop, any day now! | 01:10 |
stovepipe | i dont think that means what they think it means heh | 01:11 |
stovepipe | linux was my main workstation for decades until i switched it to freebsd in anger | 01:12 |
SuaveDandy | What locale should be the default? Is it C. UTF-8? US? My language? | 01:12 |
stovepipe | then devuan made me hate it less | 01:12 |
gnarface | SuaveDandy: you probably want the right one for whatever language you've set it to, yes, but i would still also include utf8 and iso-8859-1 to keep buggy improperly internationalized stuff from crashing on you unexpectedly | 01:13 |
gnarface | SuaveDandy: (though i haven't seen such stuff in a while here, i also haven't tested extensively so ymmv) | 01:14 |
stovepipe | i wonder if there are secret agents spreading pro-systemd propaganda around IRC | 01:14 |
* gnarface doesn't wonder | 01:15 | |
stovepipe | systemd wants to take over the whole filesystem | 01:16 |
SuaveDandy | ru_RU doesn't have ISO-8859-1. It has… ISO-8859-5… | 01:16 |
stovepipe | no more /home or /usr or /etc | 01:16 |
SuaveDandy | Whatever that is. | 01:16 |
gnarface | SuaveDandy: oh, you're RU? yea, you actually probably want the extended latin character set too | 01:17 |
SuaveDandy | SECRET AGENT: You better use Systemd, dawg. We don't want any casualties. | 01:17 |
gnarface | SuaveDandy: don't omit latin1 though. broken programs that aren't properly internationalized will often fall back to iso-8859-1 instead of C | 01:17 |
gnarface | SuaveDandy: (just don't make latin1 your default - though i'm not sure it even would matter in your case) | 01:18 |
unixbsd | which fs on devuan can support bad blocks? zfs only ? ext2 with newfs_ext2fs -c ? more fs? | 01:18 |
gnarface | SuaveDandy: and if you have to take data from windows systems you might find a use of including the cp1215 and cp1212 or whatever they're called (there's 2-3 windows-specific variations of latin1) | 01:19 |
gnarface | unixbsd: i thought they all did. i guess i'm not sure but at least ext2, ext3 and ext4 for sure | 01:19 |
SuaveDandy | Don't see Latin1. I see only lt_LT. | 01:19 |
gnarface | SuaveDandy: sorry. i'm being lazy and omitting data i thought you already had. "Latin1" == "ISO-8859-1" | 01:20 |
fsmithred | lt Lithuanian | 01:20 |
fsmithred | or Latvian | 01:20 |
SuaveDandy | Is it the en_EN one? | 01:20 |
gnarface | SuaveDandy: i think it's labeled en_US but double check | 01:21 |
SuaveDandy | Oh, sorry. | 01:21 |
fsmithred | yeah, en_US | 01:21 |
SuaveDandy | en_US | 01:21 |
fsmithred | or en_GB | 01:21 |
gnarface | SuaveDandy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO/IEC_8859#The_parts_of_ISO/IEC_8859 | 01:21 |
SuaveDandy | Silly me. Brain coockoogaga. Can barely remember things now. | 01:21 |
unixbsd | xfs, btrfs, jfs, and ufs2/ffs have no bad sector list. Well only ext2 and ext4, with mkfs.ext4 -c /dev/x has a bad sector list. | 01:22 |
SuaveDandy | And say what I didn't mean. | 01:22 |
unixbsd | best is really to use Zfs, but well, there is no choice zfs is the best. however, it uses fuse, which is very unreliable. | 01:22 |
gnarface | unixbsd: yea the zfs integration isn't as good as with bsd | 01:22 |
mason | unixbsd: ZFS doesn't use fuse for the last decade or so. | 01:24 |
gnarface | SuaveDandy: don't forget to add some russian character sets. most the english utf8 ones don't enclude a full set of glyphs, so they won't crash your shit but you'd still probably get empty squares in place of characters | 01:24 |
unixbsd | bit depressing. ... ext4 can check bad sectors but the GPL will make it out of use for servers on bsd, ext4 is maybe more reliable than ufs2. zfs usees all the memory of your system. Open a firefox and use zfs and you will work next day or next month, after waiting hours. | 01:24 |
gnarface | SuaveDandy: sorry *russian fonts* to be clear | 01:24 |
gnarface | unixbsd: try XFS? it's not fancy but it's old and fast :) | 01:25 |
unixbsd | xfs has no bad block check before "format". if you get a bad block your disk is "dead" using xfs. | 01:25 |
SuaveDandy | Should I use ru_RU or ru_RU.UTF-8 as the default? I suppose ru_RU is the ISO-1889-5 one. | 01:26 |
unixbsd | jfs is even worse when a bad block occurs. this I remember one hour at each boot using jfs for one single sector. | 01:26 |
SuaveDandy | Do you guys choose locals too or just install all of them? | 01:27 |
unixbsd | mason: mkfs.zfs ? | 01:27 |
gnarface | SuaveDandy: i choose | 01:27 |
gnarface | SuaveDandy: these days, i would say ru_RU.UTF-8 is probably the better choice, but that's based only on the fact my advice for en_US.UTF-8 changed the same way a couple years ago | 01:28 |
SuaveDandy | Ah. | 01:28 |
SuaveDandy | Okay. | 01:28 |
gnarface | SuaveDandy: with en_US.UTF-8, you can trust that it is 100% a superset of en_US. with ru_RU maybe it is only 99% so i don't know for sure. | 01:28 |
gnarface | SuaveDandy: it should be safe to pick everything you *might* need | 01:29 |
SuaveDandy | For the future: installing OpenRC right after debootstrapping was a bad idea. | 01:34 |
gnarface | what happened? | 01:35 |
SuaveDandy | DEVUAN: YOU SHOULD REBOOT IMMEDIATELY!! | 01:35 |
unixbsd | i love openrc | 01:35 |
gnarface | hah. oh | 01:35 |
unixbsd | openrc is way better than default devuan rc | 01:35 |
SuaveDandy | Probably that's why the locales failed to install before. | 01:36 |
SuaveDandy | I mean, to set up. | 01:37 |
SuaveDandy | The package itself got installed. | 01:37 |
SuaveDandy | Maybe --include and --exclude did nothing wrong. | 01:37 |
SuaveDandy | I'll try again. After I'll get some sleep. Again. | 01:38 |
unixbsd | how to fix bad sectors on linux ext4 on a disk 4tb with data on it? | 01:40 |
Hurgotron | fsck.ext4 ? | 01:41 |
unixbsd | does it save and remove them onto a blacklist of dead sectors??? | 01:41 |
Hurgotron | well, if the media is not braindead it should relocate the bad sectors on its own... | 01:43 |
Hurgotron | otherweise, well, there's badblocks and you can feed the list to mkfs.ext4 - but that would be destructive | 01:44 |
gnarface | unixbsd: best you read the manpage about fsck.ext4 or badblocks itself (or better yet; both) but i think the idea is something like a linear text file of bad block sector numbers gets generated and you pass it as a mount option | 01:44 |
gnarface | unixbsd: they recommend not running badblocks directly as mkfs.ext4 can call badblocks for you | 01:45 |
gnarface | unixbsd: (note that it does not unless you specifically tell it to though, so read the man page for details) | 01:46 |
gnarface | unixbsd: (and plan 1-2 days in advance. it's gonna take a while) | 01:47 |
gnarface | unixbsd: calling badblocks directly just generates the raw list | 01:47 |
unixbsd | I read on superuser.com that fsck.ext4 -cc /dev/sdb1 ; fsck.ext4 -cc /dev/sdb2 will fix it... read and write. so I tried. let's wait one or two days... | 01:48 |
unixbsd | in comparison, unix has not such a feature.. the bsd ufs has not bad block check. this is a good advantage for end users for daily home usage. | 01:49 |
gnarface | you might have wanted to set it to output some sort of progress meter but yea that should do it | 01:49 |
Hurgotron | looks good, I didn't know that option yet. | 01:49 |
Hurgotron | OTOH, I would probably not trust damaged media like that too much. | 01:50 |
unixbsd | the all trick is here: mkfs.ext4 -c /dev/sdX to create and regularly: mkfs.ext4 -cc /dev/sdX. | 01:50 |
gnarface | unixbsd: in theory the badblocks test is filesystem agnostic, so if there were a way to omit a list of blocks from the ufs filesystem you could still pass the list generated by badblocks assuming you had set the right block size | 01:50 |
unixbsd | I had in the past notebooks over 20 to 30 years with bad blocks. nothing changed, ;) | 01:51 |
unixbsd | fear can explain all what developers believe and how they can react with their software. ;) dump your pc, but well, it still works today. | 01:51 |
gnarface | yea, sometimes once a few bad blocks appear they start growing like fungus. but sometimes they don't, too. | 01:52 |
SuaveDandy | mason: ZFS uses half the RAM. What if I'll have lots of opened programs? | 01:52 |
unixbsd | zfs will screw whole ram indeed. you cannot run it on a ARM board for sure. | 01:52 |
gnarface | hehe, nonetheless i see pine64 people are trying anyway :) | 01:52 |
SuaveDandy | I have 8 gigs. | 01:53 |
Hurgotron | there are tuning options for zfs. On FreeBSD, it ate *all* my RAM before tuning. | 01:53 |
Hurgotron | (and that was 64GB) | 01:53 |
unixbsd | would be faster to run ext4 | 01:53 |
gnarface | yea i hear a lot that you don't really want zfs running on your desktops/laptops; you want it running on the file server they get backed up to | 01:53 |
mason | SuaveDandy: ARC gets out of the way pretty fast. I've run ZFS on 1g systems unproblematically. | 01:54 |
SuaveDandy | Ah… | 01:54 |
unixbsd | at the end, we have no single good FS. | 01:54 |
mason | SuaveDandy: You can even run it on an ARM board. | 01:54 |
unixbsd | maybe ntfs is the key of success <- bad joke. | 01:54 |
mason | In ZFS, we have a good general-purpose FS. | 01:54 |
gnarface | ntfs doesn't even work right in wine | 01:54 |
SuaveDandy | Some people legit think that it's good that Windows uses NTFS instead of Ext4. | 01:55 |
gnarface | i think you can actually use ext4 on windows now | 01:55 |
SuaveDandy | Say that "it's more optimized for it" or something. | 01:55 |
SuaveDandy | I have no idea how you can do that. | 01:56 |
SuaveDandy | You can use BtrFS on ReactOS. | 01:56 |
gnarface | there's a 3rd party ext4 driver for windows | 01:56 |
unixbsd | I tried openbsd A6 but it cannot work long with heavy duty. it fails and crash due to lack of inodes. so no file server in that direction. likely freebsd and linux (sure with ext4) might be best approach for bsd/linux families. | 01:56 |
gnarface | i used it once | 01:56 |
SuaveDandy | I wonder. Debian is pretty stable. And even then BtrFS is considered unstable on it. | 01:57 |
unixbsd | systemd? no no | 01:57 |
mason | SuaveDandy: BtrFS will get better. Fedora's picking it up, so it'll get a lot of use. | 01:57 |
SuaveDandy | Seems like BtrFS is lighter and doesn't eat that much RAM. | 01:57 |
mason | The problem there is that you have to chase the bleeding edge kernel for BtrFS fixes. ZFS is developed separately, decoupled from the upstream kernel, and this is a huge win. | 01:58 |
unixbsd | btrfs has no bad block check and fix. ... risky, too risky. | 01:58 |
Hurgotron | I prefer to let the others do the testing :) | 01:58 |
mason | When BtrFS becomes reliable it'll be an awfully good thing. | 01:58 |
unixbsd | without bad block, soon or later, defect occurs, or just use raid or similar | 01:59 |
SuaveDandy | Raid Shadow Legends. | 01:59 |
unixbsd | Good night. | 02:01 |
SuaveDandy | Good night. | 02:01 |
mason | o/ | 02:03 |
SuaveDandy | Do Pine64 guys put ZFS on postmarket or something? | 02:03 |
SuaveDandy | Mobian? | 02:03 |
SuaveDandy | UBports? | 02:03 |
SuaveDandy | mason: Does your installation script work with LUKS? | 02:06 |
mason | SuaveDandy: Yeah, either LUKS or native ZFS encryption. I use LUKS myself. | 02:06 |
SuaveDandy | Why not native? | 02:06 |
mason | SuaveDandy: Remember that the GRUB install part is hosed and requires a manual GRUB install to finish it up. | 02:06 |
gnarface | SuaveDandy: what? no i don't think i've heard of it being the default on any shipped OSes, but i'm also aware there's more people rolling their own distros for pine64 hardware then there are major distros | 02:07 |
mason | SuaveDandy: Native ZFS encryption only has one key. LUKS1 has four, LUKS2 has like 20 or something. Native won't let you send to an unencrypted pool. LUKS, you can stream to whatever you need. | 02:07 |
gnarface | SuaveDandy: i just recalled seeing talk about it | 02:07 |
mason | I need to put some time into the script and clean it up, but I've got a ton of other projects pressing, some for Devuan. | 02:08 |
gnarface | s/then/than/ | 02:08 |
mason | Anyway, g'night all, or bbl at any rate. o/ | 02:08 |
SuaveDandy | So if I have one drive, LUKS is optimal? | 02:08 |
gnarface | SuaveDandy: nobody is shipping a distro with a read-only ext2 /boot and a xfs /, but i know that works too :) | 02:08 |
mason | SuaveDandy: FWIW, I know people that use and love native ZFS encryption, so it's entirely up to you what you use. | 02:08 |
mason | bbl | 02:09 |
SuaveDandy | I… can't really see much difference. | 02:09 |
SuaveDandy | Hmm. | 02:09 |
gnarface | SuaveDandy: sometimes the only real way to decide what matters is to experience it for yourself | 02:10 |
gnarface | SuaveDandy: most this stuff has so many alternatives because there's no one good answer for everyone | 02:11 |
SuaveDandy | ZFS also acts as LVM. Does that mean that it'll add more overhead? | 02:11 |
gnarface | as i understand it, you would need LVM anyway to do encryption outside of zfs native encryption | 02:12 |
gnarface | so in your case, no | 02:12 |
gnarface | sum of 0 | 02:12 |
gnarface | actually my guess is it would be lighter slightly than adding LVM but also be missing some features in exchange, but i don't actually know | 02:12 |
SuaveDandy | Not really. You can easily install LUKS over root. | 02:13 |
SuaveDandy | LVM is redundant. | 02:13 |
SuaveDandy | Did that before. Pretty easy and lightweight. | 02:13 |
gnarface | maybe in your case. i can't say for sure if it is for every case. it's sure redundant to my use case but that's because my use case includes expert manual physical volume management | 02:13 |
SuaveDandy | Not on Debian but… | 02:14 |
gnarface | it would be easy to try both and run some benchmarks with bonnie++ | 02:14 |
SuaveDandy | I did manage to set it up on Void. | 02:14 |
gnarface | (if you care enough to know) | 02:14 |
gnarface | though nobody using LVM really complains about the performance overhead | 02:15 |
gnarface | so my guess is the resultant difference is trivial either way | 02:15 |
gnarface | computers are fast these days man | 02:15 |
gnarface | your hardware specs are a big factor in the best choice here | 02:15 |
SuaveDandy | I mean, for me it's either ZFS with native encryption or F2FS with LUKS on top. | 02:16 |
gnarface | some of these things were different 20 years ago but if you're running 20 year old hardware... | 02:16 |
gnarface | hmmm, that actually would be an interesting benchmark | 02:17 |
gnarface | yes, now that i think more about it, i realize you must try both, for science! | 02:18 |
SuaveDandy | But I haven't even set up my system yet. | 02:19 |
gnarface | hehe, i know. you're definitely putting the cart before the horse, i did mention that to yesterday though already. | 02:19 |
gnarface | to you* | 02:19 |
SuaveDandy | Still thinking if I should go with Sway or Awesome. | 02:19 |
gnarface | i have no experience with either | 02:19 |
gnarface | i still think everyone should try Enlightenment | 02:20 |
SuaveDandy | Sway as in Wayland. Some people say it's awesome. Some people say it breaks all the time. | 02:20 |
gnarface | afaik Enlightenment also targets Wayland but i haven't tried it that way | 02:21 |
SuaveDandy | Is Enlightenment good at tiling? | 02:21 |
gnarface | i have never tried it, but i do know it does have a tiling mode you can enable | 02:21 |
gnarface | also has a mobile mode which is different from that i think? | 02:22 |
SuaveDandy | I'm just searching for a noob-friendly tiling WM. I know that if I'll go with Xmonad or BSPWM I'll be stuck for a month or two. | 02:22 |
gnarface | Enlightenment has a boatload of options actually, but they're all mouse-accessible. no manual config file editing necessary... i'm not sure if that counts as more or less noob-friendly | 02:23 |
SuaveDandy | I always thought GNOME would be neato for mobile. But for some reason Purism developed Phosh on top of it. | 02:23 |
gnarface | i like enlightenment for how extremely flexible it is, but i don't really do the "tiling" thing | 02:25 |
gnarface | i just know it's the leading WM for "do what i want" | 02:25 |
SuaveDandy | Mouse-accessible? Not necessarily. I'm sure every noob can do nmcli connect wifi in the CLI. | 02:25 |
SuaveDandy | *nmcli device wifi connect | 02:25 |
gnarface | but Enlightenment uses connman | 02:25 |
SuaveDandy | It's a pretty simple command. | 02:26 |
SuaveDandy | Isn't conman old? | 02:26 |
gnarface | shit man, do you have any idea of where this software came from? | 02:26 |
gnarface | unix is old | 02:26 |
gnarface | lol | 02:26 |
gnarface | it's all old as the hills | 02:26 |
SuaveDandy | I mean, fair enough. | 02:26 |
SuaveDandy | I was more about it being harder to use. | 02:27 |
gnarface | uh, raster covered this recently - paraphrasing here but i think it was roughly "connman was the only one that had the features to be fully integrated into the enlightenment UI" | 02:27 |
SuaveDandy | As in, using verbose commands, scripting. | 02:27 |
SuaveDandy | Programming language like Perl or something. | 02:28 |
gnarface | nah... i mean, i'm not using it, but i assume it's a actual GUI tool | 02:28 |
SuaveDandy | Does it have CLI? | 02:28 |
gnarface | oh! | 02:28 |
gnarface | i'm looking at the package list now, it's actually in several packages | 02:29 |
gnarface | there is a cli and several guis apparently | 02:29 |
gnarface | er... no, just a gtk one and some related stuff | 02:29 |
gnarface | SuaveDandy: run this: apt-cache search ^connm | 02:29 |
SuaveDandy | Because after I used nmcli device wifi connect <network> password <password>, I didn't want to go back. | 02:30 |
SuaveDandy | It's so short. | 02:30 |
SuaveDandy | And so quick. | 02:30 |
gnarface | hmmm. you're clear that Enlightenment won't stop you from doing that, right? | 02:30 |
gnarface | i still edit the /etc/network/interfaces file directly. i didn't even install connman | 02:30 |
SuaveDandy | Doesn't it require conman? | 02:30 |
gnarface | no, it just can use it if it is present | 02:31 |
* Xenguy likes the name... | 02:31 | |
SuaveDandy | Console Man. | 02:31 |
gnarface | optional dependency, not a requirement | 02:31 |
SuaveDandy | New DC superhero. | 02:31 |
gnarface | it's "Connection Manager" i think | 02:31 |
Xenguy | heh | 02:31 |
Xenguy | As long as he's a superhero | 02:31 |
SuaveDandy | He became a superhero after breathing in his granddad's terminal gas. | 02:32 |
Xenguy | There must be an easier way | 02:32 |
Xenguy | Maybe it's not easy being a superhero | 02:32 |
SuaveDandy | Now he can open terminal windows everywhere. On the wall, on the ceiling. | 02:32 |
SuaveDandy | Opening a terminal window. In a window. | 02:33 |
SuaveDandy | Windowception. | 02:33 |
* Xenguy has to hit F12 ... | 02:33 | |
SuaveDandy | Noone got my Safespace reference. | 02:35 |
SuaveDandy | Oh, wait. Safespace was from Marvel. | 02:36 |
SuaveDandy | Eh, whatever. | 02:36 |
SuaveDandy | I'm going to bed. Bye. | 02:37 |
Xenguy | nite | 02:38 |
yanmaani | where do coredumps go? | 04:06 |
yanmaani | arch wiki only talks about systemd | 04:06 |
gnarface | probably /tmp/ somewhere | 04:07 |
gnarface | it depends on the program | 04:08 |
yanmaani | when it just says 'Segmentation fault: core dumped'? | 04:08 |
gnarface | oh, they're not actually saved anywhere by default | 04:08 |
gnarface | i dont' think | 04:08 |
gnarface | but if it's something on Steam, look in /tmp/dumps/ | 04:09 |
gnarface | if it's something else, maybe /tmp/.[something owned by your user] | 04:10 |
gnarface | make sure to "ls -la" | 04:10 |
gnarface | there's probably some way to uh... force it to go somewhere specific, but embarrassingly, i don't know how | 04:11 |
gnarface | if the program has a config directory in your home directory, look there too | 04:13 |
yanmaani | nope :/ | 04:13 |
yanmaani | oh well | 04:13 |
gnarface | oh | 04:13 |
gnarface | hmm.... | 04:13 |
gnarface | check /var/crash/ | 04:13 |
yanmaani | empty | 04:15 |
yanmaani | doesn't exist | 04:15 |
furrywolf | they don't dump to the current directory anymore? | 04:16 |
gnarface | some further searching suggests you might need to provide a pattern to the kernel | 04:17 |
yanmaani | right, whatever | 04:17 |
yanmaani | don't worry | 04:17 |
gnarface | /proc/sys/kernel/core_pattern | 04:18 |
gnarface | check Documentation/sysctl/kernel.txt, see if that does what you want | 04:18 |
gnarface | best i can do for ya, sorry | 04:18 |
gnarface | you can like, give it a command that pipes to a file at an arbitrary location | 04:19 |
gnarface | something like that | 04:19 |
* furrywolf remembers them showing up in the current directory, but that may now be outdated... | 04:20 | |
* gnarface and then he asked himself "is there a debian package for that?" | 04:21 | |
gnarface | corekeeper - enable core files and report crashes to the sysadmin | 04:21 |
gnarface | behold! | 04:21 |
gnarface | yanmaani: ^^^^ | 04:21 |
gnarface | (i assume if there's one there might be others) | 04:22 |
gnarface | hmmm, though, to furrywolf's point... the kernel documentation for 5.8 seems to say the default should indeed be the current directory, a file named core.[PID], i think | 04:27 |
gnarface | it's just a sysctl setting any distro could change, but the default for me matches the documentation | 04:27 |
gnarface | (on ceres) | 04:27 |
furrywolf | yeah, that's what I remember, since like... forever. heh. | 04:28 |
gnarface | it also seems like you might need to change a ulimit though now that i'm looking more | 04:29 |
gnarface | but one would assume that package takes care of all this for you | 04:30 |
furrywolf | speaking of kernel things... I get these once or twice a day: [1926221.038880] do_IRQ: 3.38 No irq handler for vector | 04:36 |
furrywolf | the number changes, for example, the last one before this one was [1766333.949632] do_IRQ: 3.40 No irq handler for vector | 04:38 |
gnarface | hmmm | 04:38 |
gnarface | do you have irqbalance installed? | 04:38 |
furrywolf | and looks like it's actually every couple days, less often than I thought. | 04:38 |
furrywolf | 2189 ? Ss 1:10 /usr/sbin/irqbalance --pid=/var/run/irqbalance.pid | 04:38 |
gnarface | is it an old version? i vaguely recall a bug about this | 04:39 |
furrywolf | nothing seems to not working... but it fucking _beeps_ every time one happens! heh | 04:39 |
gnarface | heh | 04:39 |
furrywolf | Version: 1.1.0-2.3 | 04:39 |
gnarface | well ceres is on 1.7 | 04:39 |
gnarface | not that you might not be able to change some bios settings or the physical device order (if it's cards causing it) instead | 04:40 |
gnarface | it's probably something that retries fairly quickly and won't go out to lunch as long as it doesn't fail to get a response twice in a row | 04:41 |
gnarface | but it does also seem like something that should not be happening in the first place | 04:41 |
furrywolf | it's a laptop. | 04:41 |
furrywolf | there's no changing anything. :) | 04:42 |
gnarface | oh | 04:42 |
gnarface | hmmm | 04:42 |
furrywolf | if I could at least make it not beep, that would be enough. :P | 04:43 |
gnarface | heh | 04:43 |
gnarface | no beep control in alsamixer or the bios? | 04:43 |
furrywolf | it's a hardware beep, not an alsa beep | 04:43 |
gnarface | on laptops sometimes that's the same thing | 04:44 |
gnarface | sometimes there's even a "beep" control in the alsamixer panel | 04:44 |
gnarface | i see that's the ascii version of irqbalance | 04:44 |
gnarface | have you tried a beowulf livecd on this? | 04:44 |
furrywolf | no | 04:45 |
gnarface | it's fully updated though? | 04:45 |
gnarface | newest kernel too? | 04:45 |
furrywolf | I plan on upgrading to beowulf after I get a better internet connection... haven't had the bandwidth lately to do things like that. | 04:45 |
furrywolf | 4.19.0-0.bpo.6-amd64 #1 SMP Debian 4.19.67-2+deb10u1~bpo9+1 (2019-09-30) x86_64 GNU/Linux | 04:45 |
gnarface | if you still have pending updates, first thing i would check is if it's a newer version of something | 04:46 |
furrywolf | irqbalance is already the newest version (1.1.0-2.3). | 04:47 |
gnarface | hmmm | 04:47 |
gnarface | furrywolf: google tells me you should try appending this to your kernel command-line: pci=nomsi,noaer | 04:48 |
gnarface | furrywolf: it's possible that just suppresses errors rather than dealing with the problem though | 04:49 |
furrywolf | I can finally get cable internet, but need to do some tree work before they run the drop... and it needs to be done by a tree company, which requires spare mone... | 04:49 |
furrywolf | money | 04:49 |
gnarface | see here: http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=105847 | 04:49 |
furrywolf | heh, the last post compares it to unplugging your car's check engine light, not fixing the problem. :P | 04:51 |
gnarface | yea nomsi is ... disabling msi, which i think might be basically an entire class of pci hardware error handling | 04:52 |
furrywolf | I guess I should wait until I can upgrade to beowulf and see if it goes away on its own | 04:53 |
gnarface | but the bios might also let you handle irqs manually... maybe you could force it not to share any and this could go away | 04:54 |
gnarface | that actually makes me question other bios settings related to that | 04:54 |
gnarface | like what the setting is for "PnP OS" | 04:55 |
gnarface | (if furnished) | 04:55 |
furrywolf | I haven't seen that setting in like two decades. lol | 04:55 |
gnarface | furrywolf: try: xset b 0 0 0 | 04:57 |
gnarface | maybe that'll disable the bell while you're in X anyway | 04:57 |
gnarface | worth a try | 04:57 |
furrywolf | I don't want to entirely disable it, just make the kernel not try to beep for errors... also, it doesn't beep for any other errors, just that one. lol | 04:58 |
gnarface | that xset command would disable the beep, not the error | 04:58 |
gnarface | the "0 0 0" is volume, pitch, duration | 04:59 |
gnarface | so you could also significantly change it to something less unpleasant instead | 04:59 |
gnarface | or you could just try to blacklist the pcspkr module | 04:59 |
gnarface | but like i said, for laptops that often doesn't help | 04:59 |
gnarface | there's some way it can fail over to alsa i think? | 05:01 |
gnarface | maybe driver dependent | 05:01 |
gnarface | (like, even if the alsamixer panel doesn't expose a control for the beep) | 05:01 |
gnarface | it would all be bios dependent in a laptop, and i've seen some whack laptop bioses | 05:02 |
* furrywolf is googling for some option to make the kernel not beep on errors, not finding one. odd... | 05:04 | |
gnarface | i vaguely recall there's some alsa thing worth checking but i can't remember exactly | 05:10 |
gnarface | something other than the pcspkr module i though | 05:10 |
gnarface | but maybe just another name for it | 05:10 |
gnarface | i thought* | 05:10 |
furrywolf | I don't want to disable all beeps... just the kernel beeping on errors. | 05:10 |
gnarface | hmm, right | 05:10 |
gnarface | build option? | 05:10 |
furrywolf | I think "live with it until I can upgrade to beowulf and see if it's still a problem" is the likely option. | 05:11 |
unixbsd | on devuan, how to recompile e2fsprogs from source using apt-get? | 08:19 |
rennj | https://wiki.debian.org/BuildingTutorial | 08:39 |
rennj | apt-get source the-package | 08:39 |
rennj | apt-get build-dep the-package | 08:39 |
rennj | then the compile part.. | 08:39 |
fling | How to run /bin/bash in screen by the default? It is running /bit/sh instead. | 09:04 |
DPA | fling: The shell used by programs is usually determined by the SHELL environment variable, which is usually set when logging in, to the users default shell, which is defined in the passwd database. | 10:09 |
DPA | To just set the shell temporarely for a program, just set the env variable like so "SHELL=/bin/bash screen". To change the users default shell, use "usermod --shell /bin/bash username". | 10:09 |
DPA | Some programs also have an option to specify the shell to use. | 10:09 |
fling | DPA: usermod --shell /bin/bash root | 10:22 |
fling | usermod: no changes | 10:22 |
fling | DPA: because I already used chsh | 10:22 |
fling | this works though -> SHELL=/bin/bash screen | 10:22 |
fling | not sure where is this $SHELL variable being set htttt | 10:22 |
rennj | its set based on what /etc/passwd has for the user account...hence the usermod command trying to change root shells..heh | 10:42 |
fling | rennj: but it is set to /etc/sh somehow instead | 10:44 |
rennj | yeah DPA already said it | 10:49 |
rennj | vipw, vigr - edit the password, group, shadow-password or shadow-group file if dont like usermod and such | 10:50 |
rennj | you see what shells you have installed on system with cat /etc/shells | 10:51 |
rennj | and screen has the -s option | 10:55 |
rennj | screen -s bash | 10:55 |
rennj | -s shell Shell to execute rather than $SHELL. | 10:56 |
rennj | echo $SHELL;screen -s bash...doesnt matter | 10:56 |
DPA | It seams the shell screen uses can also be set in ~/.screenrc | 11:01 |
fling | but I just want the default shell to be used by the default | 11:06 |
fling | I don't want screen to use /bin/sh by the default when an user has /bin/bash set | 11:07 |
DPA | fling: Normally, it shouldn't (unless the setting was changed after the user logged in in the current session.) | 11:13 |
DPA | You'll have to to search for what overrides sets SHELL on your system. | 11:13 |
DPA | Maybe check if you see anything suspicous using "grep -r /etc/environment /etc/environment.d /etc/profile /etc/profile.d /etc/security/pam_env.conf" | 11:13 |
DPA | If there is nothing, maybe check the users .pam_environment, .profile, .bashrc, etc. | 11:13 |
DPA | s/grep -r/grep -r SHELL / | 11:14 |
fling | hmm can't find anything | 11:16 |
DPA | fling: And the shell really is set correctly? "getent passwd $(id -u) | cut -d ':' -f 7" | 11:19 |
fling | DPA: it says /bin/bash | 11:20 |
fling | no shell set in /etc/screenrc | 11:20 |
fling | SHELL is /bin/bash outside of screen | 11:20 |
fling | and it is /bin/sh inside :D | 11:21 |
rennj | ls -al /bin/sh is link to bash? | 11:21 |
fling | rennj: to dash | 11:21 |
DPA | That's odd, I mean "SHELL=/bin/bash screen" worked after all. Maybe it's somehow set as unexported variable? | 11:24 |
DPA | tr '\0' '\n' </proc/$$/environ | grep SHELL | 11:24 |
rennj | https://wiki.debian.org/Shell | 11:24 |
rennj | well debian says so | 11:24 |
rennj | A non-interactive shell is used to execute system scripts or scripts that use #!/bin/sh shebang. | 11:25 |
rennj | Debian uses Dash as the default non-interactive shell. | 11:25 |
fling | DPA: empty | 11:25 |
fling | export SHELL=/bin/bash | 11:26 |
fling | ^ running this before starting screen helps | 11:26 |
fling | something fishy going on | 11:27 |
DPA | This is very odd. How did you login? TTY (login), ssh, su -, ? | 11:28 |
rennj | perhaps try a new useraccount..and see if it general account creation or something specific that users home dot files | 11:28 |
fling | DPA: lxc exec my-devuan-container bash | 11:32 |
rennj | fix your container profile and you wont have to exec bash once its up | 11:42 |
DPA | lxc probably unsets some environment variables before starting bash, and just starting bash (even if done as login shell) isn't the same as a full login. You'll have to set the shell somewhere. | 11:54 |
DPA | Or use sudo or su - or something like that for a more complete login | 11:56 |
rennj | --mode="auto" Override the terminal mode (auto, interactive or non-interactive)` | 12:00 |
rennj | yeah lxc-exec | 12:00 |
DPA | How is Chimaera comming along? Is it save to use? | 12:22 |
DPA | Also, someone should probably update https://devuan.org/os/releases, some stuff like "Once Beowulf is officially released" is a bit outdated... | 12:24 |
Wonka | Is already someone working on libelogind0 >= 246? Asking for wireshark-common... | 13:57 |
yann-kaelig | Hi. I can not be sure, but it look very weird that openssh-server installation in Devuan need 97 packages as deps | 14:00 |
yann-kaelig | from a minimal netinstall iso, with only devuan base softwares | 14:00 |
yann-kaelig | why do I need elogind, x11-common for opennsh-server ? | 14:01 |
r3boot | 21 | 14:02 |
xinomilo | it doesn't, those are recommends. | 14:02 |
xinomilo | Wonka : https://github.com/elogind/elogind/issues/170 | 14:03 |
yann-kaelig | tehre is cetainly something wrong because I have now, two VM one with debina and one with devuan, on debain I don't need x11-common, adwaita icons etc... for openssh-server | 14:03 |
yann-kaelig | both from a netinstall minimal | 14:04 |
yann-kaelig | it's not recommended it's 97 pacakges that wil be installed | 14:05 |
DPA | yann-kaelig: Even if you add --no-install-recommends to the apt-get install command? | 14:06 |
SuaveDandy | Hello. Should I install elogind? | 14:10 |
xinomilo | could be the installer option for ssh server, that adds recommends packages too. not sure, haven't tested installation in a while | 14:11 |
xinomilo | sometimes i used debfoster after installation, to clear out anything not needed.. | 14:12 |
yann-kaelig | DPA: no, with this option the number now look better, 3 packages will be installed | 14:12 |
yann-kaelig | That really weird, do I need to use all the time this option ? | 14:13 |
xinomilo | no, you can add it permanently in apt | 14:14 |
xinomilo | apt.conf : APT::Install-Recommends "false"; | 14:15 |
SuaveDandy | elogind seems to not be able to manage ACPI signals. For that there's acpi-support. | 14:15 |
SuaveDandy | Does it do something else? | 14:16 |
SuaveDandy | Do Wayland/Xorg need that? | 14:16 |
yann-kaelig | xinomilo: ok, thx. But in my opinion there is something wrong somewhere. I should not have to reconfigure a fresh installation. I do not see this option somewhere in the deban /etc/apt/apt.conf.d directory, and by default I do not need to use this option to get a minimal deps for openssh-server | 14:22 |
DPA | yann-kaelig: The elogind may get pulled in by the libsystemd dependency of ssh-server. There can sometimes be things unexpectedly missing if it's used, like language packs, | 14:26 |
DPA | some backends of programs, and other technically not really needed stuff. The option is usually not a problem on a server, but can be for users who just want to use desktop | 14:26 |
DPA | applications with all possible features working and without installing those components manually. | 14:26 |
DPA | * There can sometimes be things unexpectedly missing if --no-install-recommends is used | 14:28 |
yann-kaelig | I understand, but I do not understand why on Debian I do not use this option and openssh-server is installed , from my point of view, in a right way. I can not be really agree with your point of view, because manually means using apt-get install in any case, but sure the user will have to write a little more to install all the stuff | 14:35 |
yann-kaelig | Well, thx for the help, hope this option is not an issue for server use case | 14:38 |
fling | How to install lxd properly? | 14:43 |
DPA | yann-kaelig: Installing the whole desktop environment is as simple as just installing task-xfce-desktop, task-kde-desktop, task-cinnamon-desktop, task-lxqt-desktop | 14:43 |
DPA | or task-mate-desktop. Alternatively, you can also use just task-desktop and get whatever's the default. | 14:43 |
yann-kaelig | I want to say that I never understand why a lot of things work in the negative or decreasingly instead by the positive and increasingly. | 14:50 |
mason | fling: Haven't seen anyone mention this option yet. In .screenrc: shell -bash | 15:57 |
fling | mason: sure but I just wanted to figure out what is going on wrong | 16:06 |
gast0n | Hi, someone is having problems with the weather widget in xfce, to get the weather forecast | 16:51 |
SuaveDandy | Okay, I gave up on the ZFS installation. | 17:41 |
SuaveDandy | This is impossible. | 17:41 |
Hurgotron | (I used FreeBSD for it, but that's probably not helpful) | 17:43 |
SuaveDandy | fsmithred: Is it possible to set up an encrypted boot with the file system not included on the ISO? | 17:46 |
mason | SuaveDandy: Ah, sorry to hear it. If you want help working through whatever bit you I'd help. | 17:50 |
mason | I can say for sure it's not impossible, as all the systems near me right now do it. But it's sure not a "productized" experience. | 17:51 |
SuaveDandy | When I tried to install zfs-initramfs on a chrooted system, it complained that I don't have zfsutils-linux. I've installed zfs-dkms but it resulted in a bunch of errors. | 17:53 |
SuaveDandy | Here. https://tinyurl.com/yy3yczlo | 17:54 |
mason | SuaveDandy: There are two different ways to go about it. You use custom packages or the DKMS stuff. If DKMS, you want to use the one from backports. | 17:54 |
mason | That 404s for me, although it points into openzfs.github.io | 17:55 |
mason | Anyway, if it's one of rlaager's guides, they don't quite do what I like to do in several respects; | 17:56 |
SuaveDandy | There. https://tinyurl.com/y9bjohwg | 17:56 |
bz2S | SuaveDandy: I setup zfs per a guide on dev1galaxy.org (though w/out encryption) | 17:57 |
bz2S | https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=2506 | 17:57 |
fsmithred | SuaveDandy, I don't understand your question about "file system not included on the iso" | 17:57 |
SuaveDandy | Isn't it for legacy boot? | 17:57 |
bz2S | the problem with zfs, is that upgrade requires compiling. very slow. | 17:57 |
SuaveDandy | As in, downloaded through APT. | 17:57 |
SuaveDandy | Like F2FS. | 17:57 |
mason | bz2S: That's only if you use the DKMS. Custom packages let you compile once and then just distribute the packages to your boxes. | 17:58 |
mason | bz2S: This works fine in Devuan: https://openzfs.github.io/openzfs-docs/Developer%20Resources/Custom%20Packages.html | 17:58 |
mason | What's really necessary is for me (or someone) to clear a bunch of existing projects and learn how to integrate ZFS into the traditional Debian installer. | 17:59 |
mason | It's conceptually so similar to LVM that there isn't really a need for a new workflow, just behind the scenes stuff. | 17:59 |
specing | SuaveDandy: why not btrfs? | 17:59 |
SuaveDandy | Isn't it buggy? | 18:00 |
mason | He's probably not a gambler. =cough= | 18:00 |
bz2S | mason: too much work for me, but it looks like a work around. | 18:00 |
mason | But seriously, having to chase the bleeding-edge Linux kernel for fixes is a little unfortunate. | 18:00 |
bz2S | next time i will use btrfs, personally | 18:01 |
mason | bz2S: It'll be awesome when it's reliable enough to trust. Better for the world. Altogether good. | 18:02 |
mason | Fedora pushing it will help bring this about. | 18:02 |
mason | Anyway, back to work for me. | 18:02 |
SuaveDandy | If I'll try installing again, I'll try to complete the installation without disk wiping and encryption. | 18:03 |
SuaveDandy | Because it takes so long and wears off my SSD. | 18:03 |
SuaveDandy | Hope it'll get going faster. Because the amount of typing I do to make that boot pool. | 18:04 |
SuaveDandy | It's a bunch of feature@'s. | 18:05 |
fsmithred | I rarely bother to wipe before encrypting | 18:05 |
SuaveDandy | 12, to be precise. | 18:05 |
SuaveDandy | But security. | 18:05 |
fsmithred | encryption provides security | 18:05 |
mason | SuaveDandy: Oh, is it a bootpool/rootpool configuration? I wouldn't recommend that. Way more complexity than you want. | 18:06 |
mason | And almost no gain at all. | 18:06 |
SuaveDandy | Really? Damn. | 18:06 |
SuaveDandy | This guide is built around that. | 18:06 |
mason | SuaveDandy: Stuffing kernel and initramfs into an ESP or into an MD-RAID1 /boot is just fine for this. | 18:06 |
SuaveDandy | That needs LUKS encryption, as far as I know. | 18:07 |
mason | SuaveDandy: Yeah, that model started off with FreeBSD before they had a GELI-aware UEFI ZFS bootloader. It was not considered a good idea then and it went away as soon as their UEFI/ZFS bootloader learned GELI. | 18:07 |
SuaveDandy | GRUB doesn't support the native encryption. | 18:07 |
fsmithred | you want /boot to be encrypted? | 18:07 |
SuaveDandy | I actually would like ESP+ZFS. | 18:08 |
SuaveDandy | I just don't know how to do this. | 18:08 |
mason | SuaveDandy: The workstation I'm on right now has an ESP (one per disk, two disks) with GRUB, an MD-RAID1 /boot, and the rest of the system is LUKS/ZFS. Could just as easily be native-encrypted ZFS. | 18:08 |
fsmithred | I don't think you can encrypt esp | 18:08 |
SuaveDandy | ESP+LUKS/ZFS. | 18:08 |
mason | SuaveDandy: Pure ESP/ZFS, you can use the Linux kernel's EFI stub code and boot it directly. | 18:08 |
SuaveDandy | I remember GRUB not supporting ZFS encryption. | 18:09 |
mason | I ran that for a while, but then I centralized on what I use now, since I can deploy it on every system I've got - one of my systems won't handle four EFI boot variables at once, which I wanted for new0, new1, old0, old1 kernel entries. | 18:09 |
mason | Let me see if I have notes. | 18:10 |
mason | Hrm, didn't keep them after I abandoned the model. Anyway, the trick was that you use efibootmgr as normal to point to the kernel, and then you use the little-used -u option to pass the kernel command line, which includes "root=ZFS=tank/ROOT?default" or whatever you need. | 18:12 |
SuaveDandy | Is the setup more complicated than LUKS? | 18:14 |
mason | Oh, and you pass in the initramfs in -u too. | 18:14 |
mason | Um, LUKS is a little more complicated than native encryption. It's just a bit more flexible when it's all running. | 18:14 |
mason | doing example now | 18:16 |
SuaveDandy | Is there a proper ZFS installation guide for Debian using ESP+encrypted ZFS? | 18:18 |
mason | No. My scripting is the closest I've seen. I'll write it out as docs someday. | 18:18 |
SuaveDandy | Gotta go. The veins on my only eye start popping off. Need to take a break. | 18:19 |
mason | SuaveDandy: Here, this is about as boiled down as it gets: https://bpa.st/PLOQ | 18:20 |
SuaveDandy | Mirror? But I only use one drive. | 18:21 |
mason | Fine, half a sec. | 18:21 |
mason | Here: https://bpa.st/24SA | 18:22 |
mason | Not using at least a mirror, you don't get the self-healing benefits unless you use copies=2 or something, but that's not as good as a mirror in the event that you lose a whole drive. | 18:23 |
SuaveDandy | What is a mirror? | 18:24 |
mason | Two disks. It's like an MD-RAID1, but the whole stripe (both disks) are read on each read to verify data integrity, whereas as soon as MD-RAID1 gets data from one drive it's done. | 18:24 |
mason | You can usually trust on-disk error correction, at least until you can't. :P | 18:25 |
SuaveDandy | Gotta go. | 18:25 |
SuaveDandy | Will be right back. | 18:25 |
mason | I might go have lunch, but I'll be back after that. | 18:25 |
fsmithred | a lot of disks no longer have error correction. (like WD Black, for instance) | 18:31 |
unixbsd | do you know a FS that does fsck.XXX in a mounted status? | 19:42 |
unixbsd | I tried fsck.xfs with xfs_repair and it cannot since it is mounted... | 19:42 |
DHE | it can be done with a read-only mount, though you are expected to IMMEDIATELY reboot | 19:49 |
SuaveDandy | I'm back. | 19:49 |
SuaveDandy | mason: So. Do I use the code you pasted with the installation guide? | 19:51 |
mason | SuaveDandy: Oh, unsure. I didn't look through the guide. That was just an example of setting up a pool on LUKS vs with native encryption. | 19:51 |
mason | The other part with LUKS that I didn't think to post is that you want to populate /etc/crypttab so it does the right thing in your initramfs. | 19:52 |
SuaveDandy | The most difficult part I see now is putting GRUB to ESP and then setting it up to unlock ZFS-encrypted root. | 19:54 |
unixbsd | it would be ideally a FS that can be fix on the running hot mounted ... like google FS tech. | 19:55 |
unixbsd | btw, I install locally a devuan using XFS. Is there a way to download all *.deb of ASCII for AM64? | 19:57 |
unixbsd | AMD64 | 19:57 |
SuaveDandy | Wait… This ZFS root creation doesn't use a root pool? | 19:57 |
mason | SuaveDandy: Just one pool. | 19:58 |
SuaveDandy | "tank /dev/disk/by-partlabel/root0 | 19:58 |
SuaveDandy | It doesn't name it rpool or something. | 19:58 |
SuaveDandy | Isn't the pool name mandatory? | 19:59 |
mason | No. You can use whatever name you want. | 19:59 |
mason | Traditionally they're taken from the names of Matrix characters - tank, mouse, neo, trinity | 19:59 |
SuaveDandy | Ah, tank is the pool name. | 20:00 |
SuaveDandy | I see. | 20:00 |
SuaveDandy | And I thought it's a command. | 20:00 |
SuaveDandy | No Smith. Weird. | 20:00 |
mason | That'd work too. I just listed some. :) | 20:01 |
SuaveDandy | Hmm. You don't set normalization to formD? | 20:01 |
mason | SuaveDandy: All my stuff here is Unix in some form. (Well. I guess MacOS is too, but there isn't any here.) | 20:03 |
mason | I tend to think of formD as being a cross-platform thing. | 20:05 |
mason | Maybe I'm missing something. | 20:05 |
SuaveDandy | dnodesize=auto | 20:09 |
SuaveDandy | Dev1 Galaxy doesn't seem to be working in Russia even without a DNS. | 20:12 |
SuaveDandy | I don't know what is happening. | 20:13 |
SuaveDandy | Okay, I can't find any instructions that take my situation into account. | 20:22 |
mason | Ya ne gavaroo parooski ochen horosho. | 20:32 |
mason | (And I don't have a cyrillic layout.) | 20:32 |
SuaveDandy | Shtooooooooo? | 20:38 |
SuaveDandy | What was that? | 20:38 |
mason | "I don't speak Russian very well." | 20:38 |
SuaveDandy | To whom were you talking? | 20:39 |
mason | You'd just mentioned Russia. | 20:39 |
SuaveDandy | Так точно. | 20:39 |
SuaveDandy | Don't worry, English is my second language. | 20:39 |
SuaveDandy | I'm more used to speaking English online. | 20:40 |
SuaveDandy | I'm saying that I can't connect to dev1galaxy.org without a VPN. | 20:41 |
SuaveDandy | And I have no idea why. | 20:41 |
mtnman | helo | 20:41 |
SuaveDandy | Hi. | 20:41 |
mtnman | when run wicd-curses and connect to wifi, eth0 is brought down. how can i ascertain what is causing this? | 20:42 |
SuaveDandy | I speak Russian only with my friend on Discord. But that's about it. | 20:42 |
SuaveDandy | I have to decide something about ZFS already. | 20:44 |
mason | SuaveDandy: If you're not up for diving in, you can just use a standard ext or xfs and leave space at the end for ZFS, and then have /home or other data you really care about on it. | 20:53 |
SuaveDandy | I'm thinking. | 20:54 |
fsmithred | mtnman, I'm pretty sure wicd is causing that. | 20:54 |
Chain|Q | hmm, I'm trying to update my ASCII setup, which hasn't run for a year almost (it's a temporary server, which runs for ~2 weeks per year for an event) | 20:55 |
Chain|Q | but it cannot reach packages.roundr.devuan.org during apt-get update | 20:55 |
fsmithred | Chain|Q, change to deb.devuan.org | 20:55 |
Chain|Q | fsmithred: thanks | 20:56 |
fsmithred | that's the new round-robin | 20:56 |
SuaveDandy | mason: The weird thing is that the guide ( https://is.gd/Wcda5k ) doesn't specify that you should install zfs-dkms or zfsutils-linux after chrooting. It goes straight to zfs-initramfs. Why it does this I have no idea. | 21:00 |
Chain|Q | fsmithred: yeah, it worked, thanks again | 21:00 |
SuaveDandy | Also, it seems to be catered for Systemd systems. | 21:00 |
mason | SuaveDandy: Yeah, you need zfs-initramfs for it to do the right thing with the initramfs. That's odd. | 21:01 |
mason | SuaveDandy: If I can get some time together I'll rewrite my script as a guidebook. | 21:01 |
SuaveDandy | When installing GRUB there's a section where you configure a Systemd service. | 21:01 |
SuaveDandy | The conclusion: this guide is confusing. | 21:02 |
SuaveDandy | The guy from #zfsonlinux says "It's a guide for experts for an expert system." | 21:03 |
MinceR | lol | 21:03 |
SuaveDandy | And I don't quite get why experts even need a guide to begin with. | 21:03 |
mason | heh | 21:03 |
MinceR | they like to think of themselves as "experts" | 21:04 |
SuaveDandy | That guy gives me headaches. | 21:04 |
mason | SuaveDandy: I'm hoping to get a wiki up for the project soon, and I can make this cluster of things where I start on actual content. | 21:05 |
mason | None of it's particularly hard. What it is is *new* and it's all done in a not-quite-comfortable environment. | 21:05 |
SuaveDandy | Gladly, there were some cool guys too. I've even reported the issue in a guide. There used to be a line with mounting a dataset that is mounted automatically. | 21:06 |
SuaveDandy | Like, why would you mount a mounted dataset? It's gone now, thankfully. | 21:06 |
SuaveDandy | But anyway. I'mma use a standard FS and try to learn how to work in a tiling WM. | 21:08 |
SuaveDandy | You guys seem to like XFS here. | 21:08 |
mason | We like everything. We're easy. | 21:08 |
SuaveDandy | It's apparently somehow different to Ext4. | 21:09 |
mason | Yeah, comes from Irix. | 21:10 |
specing | SuaveDandy: btrfs is fairly easy to setup | 21:10 |
specing | but you have to do some reading as well | 21:10 |
SuaveDandy | I mean, that's what I'm doing right now. | 21:11 |
SuaveDandy | Again, installing a minimal system with Refracta installer. | 21:11 |
SuaveDandy | You've got to do some reading for this. | 21:12 |
fsmithred | SuaveDandy, if you want to try btrfs, this might help: https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=3258 | 21:13 |
mason | Here's an interesting comparitive piece: https://www.unixsheikh.com/articles/battle-testing-data-integrity-verification-with-zfs-btrfs-and-mdadm-dm-integrity.html | 21:13 |
SuaveDandy | The most important thing for me is not turning my system into Arch. | 21:14 |
fsmithred | n4dir, YO! | 21:14 |
SuaveDandy | So that's why I was hesitant. | 21:14 |
n4dir | fsmithred: hi :-) | 21:14 |
fsmithred | how you doing, man? It's been ages. | 21:15 |
n4dir | Oh, it is ok, thanks. Hope you are fine too | 21:15 |
SuaveDandy | mdadm. I heard it getting mentioned in the ZFS-on-root guide. | 21:15 |
fsmithred | yeah, good here | 21:15 |
n4dir | so devuan and refracta all is good and well ? | 21:19 |
SuaveDandy | Hmmmm. Now I'm thinking. | 21:20 |
SuaveDandy | If I don't have multiple drives… | 21:20 |
SuaveDandy | …does that mean I don't even need RAID? | 21:20 |
mason | SuaveDandy: Correct. Closest you'll want to get is something like ZFS's copies=2 | 21:20 |
rennj | raidz | 21:21 |
SuaveDandy | So that means that all the possible bugs don't really affect me? | 21:21 |
fsmithred | n4dir, yeah | 21:21 |
mason | SuaveDandy: Oh, for BtrFS? Yeah, it puts you on safer ground. | 21:21 |
n4dir | here and there i hear of it, either in #linux or in #debian | 21:21 |
n4dir | mainly devuan though | 21:21 |
rennj | http://kbdone.com/zfs-basics/ | 21:22 |
fsmithred | yeah, we won't go away | 21:22 |
n4dir | :-) | 21:22 |
SuaveDandy | What about managing BtrFS? Is it easier than ZFS? | 21:22 |
rennj | the sun docs are better source but linux specific focus ..link | 21:22 |
mason | SuaveDandy: There are a ton of good links at the bottom of the comparitive article I posted. | 21:23 |
SuaveDandy | Oh, sorry. | 21:23 |
SuaveDandy | Gimme a sec. | 21:23 |
n4dir | fsmithred: for a long time i was away from the PC. Now i am pretty much back to debian, mainly as i started doing audio stuff. And the distros which offer such are usually debian/ubuntu. | 21:23 |
n4dir | so systemd | 21:23 |
fsmithred | ouch | 21:23 |
fsmithred | I do audio stuff in devuan | 21:24 |
n4dir | i see. Might be once i got the head in it i will be able to just use a distro and configure the audio stuff myself | 21:24 |
fsmithred | recording and radio broadcast | 21:24 |
fsmithred | and no pulseaudio, thanks | 21:25 |
fsmithred | chase me down when you're ready | 21:25 |
n4dir | ah, right, that too. Though most of the time i use jack | 21:25 |
fsmithred | yes | 21:25 |
fsmithred | I love jack (when it obeys) | 21:26 |
SuaveDandy | fsmithred: Does your installer supports creating subvols? | 21:26 |
n4dir | what are you doing? I fool with synthesizers (yoshimi/zynaddsubfx/helm(..), did quite a bit of midi in ardour, but right now am mainly in modular synthesizers (vcvrack). So no recording or such. | 21:26 |
SuaveDandy | Or is it the same as with the Debian's? | 21:26 |
fsmithred | SuaveDandy, no, you have to do that manually | 21:26 |
fsmithred | not the same as debian installer at all | 21:26 |
SuaveDandy | Ah. | 21:26 |
fsmithred | read the thread I linked. It's about btrfs with debian-installer and with refractainstaller | 21:27 |
SuaveDandy | I mean, as in, doesn't support subvols. | 21:27 |
n4dir | not that sure how much i need to configure for such. I think its only a certain kernel and one edit file in /etc/security | 21:27 |
SuaveDandy | Ohhhhhh. | 21:27 |
fsmithred | you don't need realtime kernel for audio these days | 21:27 |
SuaveDandy | Oh, guys. I'mma disconnect again. VPN. | 21:27 |
fsmithred | oh | 21:28 |
SuaveDandy | Can't access the forums without it. | 21:28 |
SuaveDandy | Ouch. | 21:28 |
fsmithred | you want me to copy it for you? | 21:28 |
fsmithred | hang on | 21:28 |
SuaveDandy | Copy? Where? | 21:28 |
rennj | https://pthree.org/2012/12/04/zfs-administration-part-i-vdevs/ | 21:28 |
rennj | raidz1/2/3- Non-standard distributed parity-based software RAID levels. | 21:28 |
golinux | n4dir: OMG! Good to see you!! | 21:29 |
rennj | Some zpool caveats | 21:29 |
SuaveDandy | Oh, my. Have no idea why I have such problems with the forum. Turned off AdGuard DNS. To no avail. | 21:29 |
n4dir | golinux: i read a comment of yours on forums.debian, which made me do "join" her | 21:29 |
n4dir | about our new savior, called B. Gates | 21:30 |
SuaveDandy | Bill Gates??? | 21:31 |
fsmithred | https://paste.debian.net/1163459/ | 21:31 |
fsmithred | SuaveDandy, ^^^ html file for you | 21:31 |
SuaveDandy | Oh. | 21:32 |
SuaveDandy | Thanks. | 21:32 |
golinux | I'm surprised it hasn't been deleted. It was waiting for you to see it. :) | 21:32 |
fsmithred | yw | 21:32 |
n4dir | :-) | 21:32 |
SuaveDandy | Now I need to figure out how to view it on my phone. | 21:33 |
SuaveDandy | Damn you, Android. | 21:33 |
golinux | SuaveDandy: http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=142631&p=727257#p727257 | 21:33 |
fsmithred | oh shit. Normal procedure would be to save it as something.html | 21:33 |
fsmithred | pm me your email address and I can send it that way | 21:33 |
MinceR | i don't like XFS, but afaik the issue i had with it was since fixed | 21:33 |
MinceR | (metadata-only journaling resulting in zero-filled files) | 21:34 |
SuaveDandy | XFS is developed by RH. Must be a serious server-focused OS. | 21:35 |
SuaveDandy | mason: Don't worry. I'll save the link and use VPN to read it. | 21:36 |
luser977 | fsmithred: what do you use for audio? alsa? | 21:36 |
fsmithred | alsa and jackd | 21:37 |
SuaveDandy | This one, right? https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=3258 | 21:37 |
luser977 | on ceres? | 21:37 |
fsmithred | yes, 3258 | 21:37 |
SuaveDandy | Oh, tagged the wrong person. | 21:38 |
fsmithred | ceres??? um, no. Still on wheezy and jessie | 21:38 |
SuaveDandy | Sorry, mason. | 21:38 |
luser977 | any pain? firefox alsa works? | 21:38 |
fsmithred | no audio with ff if jack is in use | 21:38 |
n4dir | not here | 21:38 |
fsmithred | but that doesn't matter there | 21:38 |
SuaveDandy | Okay. I'll be back after 8 hours or so. | 21:39 |
fsmithred | I'll be ready for bed then | 21:39 |
n4dir | :-) | 21:39 |
luser977 | ff 78.2 esr? | 21:39 |
SuaveDandy | Timezones. | 21:39 |
fsmithred | I think I'm still on 68 at home | 21:40 |
luser977 | 78.2 is latest esr | 21:40 |
SuaveDandy | Need to go to bed earlier. My sleep cycle is screwed all over the place. | 21:41 |
mason | Beowulf ships 68.12 | 21:41 |
SuaveDandy | Oh, BTW. | 21:41 |
SuaveDandy | Oh, never mind. I'mma go to off-topic for a minute. | 21:41 |
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