| UsL | onefang: haha, good to know I'm in the ball park : ) | 02:43 |
|---|---|---|
| lunario | when i upgrade my chimaera installation to testing, will the package versions be upgraded to the same ones as in debian testing? or is devuan lagging behind in those? | 13:49 |
| Guest10 | Hello. How do I install Devuan on a flash drive with a save (persistence) partition? | 14:01 |
| GyrosGeier | Guest10, so you want an overlay between a readonly system installation, and a second partition? | 14:57 |
| LinuxRULZ2022 | hello | 15:24 |
| kevinzero | hi | 15:24 |
| LinuxRULZ2022 | i use Devuan since november 2021 | 15:24 |
| kevinzero | i've used it since like | 15:24 |
| LinuxRULZ2022 | it is better, because no screwing around with systemd | 15:24 |
| kevinzero | months ago | 15:24 |
| LinuxRULZ2022 | before DEVUAN, i used UBUNTU (but now I use DEVUAN 4.0) | 15:24 |
| kevinzero | i used normal debian before | 15:25 |
| LinuxRULZ2022 | i see. DEBIAN = ubuntu's dad | 15:25 |
| kevinzero | makes sense since *buntu is based on it | 15:25 |
| LinuxRULZ2022 | also on DEVUAN i have big advantages, like 100% Software compatibility, choose init system (i use OPENRC) | 15:26 |
| LinuxRULZ2022 | so what software I used on UBUNTU, it is compatible 100% with DEVUAN. Also generic Linux binaries work on it | 15:26 |
| kevinzero | if those binaries don't depend on systemd - tada, they work in devuan | 15:27 |
| LinuxRULZ2022 | i know | 15:27 |
| LinuxRULZ2022 | some of that binaries were hardcoded with SYSTEMD CRITICAL KERNEL PROCESS | 15:27 |
| kevinzero | i see | 15:28 |
| LinuxRULZ2022 | for example, Rocks and DIamonds (a game I enjoyed on Mandrake Linux in 2003-2005), works nicely on Devuan without hardwired dependence on SYSTEMD | 15:28 |
| kevinzero | of course, it's a game | 15:29 |
| kevinzero | why would games depend on specific init systems? | 15:29 |
| LinuxRULZ2022 | because some developers are maybe HARD SUPPORTERS of SYSTEMD? | 15:29 |
| kevinzero | also | 15:30 |
| kevinzero | there are devuan based distros | 15:30 |
| kevinzero | which is pretty neat | 15:30 |
| LinuxRULZ2022 | it is neat. What they were? | 15:31 |
| kevinzero | one of them is | 15:31 |
| kevinzero | STAR | 15:31 |
| GyrosGeier | systemd is basically required for the component middleware in GNOME | 15:31 |
| kevinzero | GyrosGeier: yep unfortunately | 15:32 |
| LinuxRULZ2022 | i will try STAR LINUX | 15:33 |
| LinuxRULZ2022 | sometime | 15:33 |
| kevinzero | STAR even has an i3 edition | 15:33 |
| LinuxRULZ2022 | nice | 15:33 |
| LinuxRULZ2022 | i need a top edition for RYZEN | 15:33 |
| critr | all i know is systemd triggered my paranoia meter on multiple levels and i want to avoid it. | 15:34 |
| LinuxRULZ2022 | GNOME was better years ago, now it is a machine for spreading SYSTEMD | 15:34 |
| kevinzero | red hat is trying to force systemd down our throats | 15:34 |
| critr | gnome2 was the last good gnome. | 15:35 |
| kevinzero | critr: indeed | 15:35 |
| kevinzero | thankfully MATE is based on a version of GNOME that wasn't based on systemd | 15:35 |
| kevinzero | gnome 3.34 and newer are systemd dependant | 15:35 |
| critr | yep, i use mate. | 15:35 |
| kevinzero | eventually SystemD will infiltrate every single component of a linux distro | 15:36 |
| kevinzero | so instead we will run GNU/SystemD | 15:36 |
| kevinzero | instead of GNU/Linux | 15:36 |
| kevinzero | i hope MATE won't let itself be taken over by systemd | 15:38 |
| kevinzero | it's an amazing desktop environment | 15:38 |
| critr | then redhat will probably pull an andrew lee. with the same result, i hope. | 15:38 |
| GyrosGeier | the BSD people will keep proper software alive | 15:47 |
| GyrosGeier | so I'm giving them support when I can | 15:47 |
| Guest10 | GyrosGeier, If this is the only way, tell us about it. If there are more ways, I'm curious to know about it. | 15:51 |
| GyrosGeier | well, I also write my software that it doesn't depend on systemd | 15:53 |
| LinuxRULZ2022 | i ditch SYSTEMD | 16:01 |
| Guest10 | GyrosGeier, I am interested in the answer to the question: "How do I install Devuan on a flash drive with a save (persistence) partition?" | 16:06 |
| GyrosGeier | ah | 16:12 |
| GyrosGeier | so your goal is basically to have a "factory reset" function | 16:13 |
| GyrosGeier | there are a bunch of "live CD" tools | 16:13 |
| GyrosGeier | not sure which one is best | 16:13 |
| GyrosGeier | IIRC d-i based live system uses casper | 16:13 |
| GyrosGeier | if you don't need factory reset, you can just install normally | 16:13 |
| GyrosGeier | the flash drive will be unhappy either way if you surprise eject it | 16:14 |
| GyrosGeier | because USB is slow enough that Linux defaults to massive write-behind caches | 16:14 |
| LinuxRULZ202243 | LINUX DEVUAN RULZ! | 16:22 |
| Kitty | interesting contribution there. | 16:26 |
| GyrosGeier | indeed | 16:26 |
| LinuxRULZ202243 | also, GCC can work on DEVUAN? | 16:27 |
| GyrosGeier | yes | 16:28 |
| LinuxRULZ202243 | ok. I try compiling something | 16:28 |
| GyrosGeier | no reason it wouldn't -- it just ingests files and writes more files | 16:28 |
| LinuxRULZ202243 | sometime, like a old game i played | 16:28 |
| GyrosGeier | no need for component shenanigans | 16:28 |
| LinuxRULZ202243 | so, can i use GCC for compiling something? | 16:29 |
| morruth | LinuxRULZ202243: this is it's main purpose | 16:35 |
| LinuxRULZ202243 | it is | 16:36 |
| morruth | it's confirmation or syntax correction? | 16:39 |
| Guest10 | GyrosGeier, How do I make a partition with persistence like in ParrotSec? Are there any system files responsible for this function? Is there something similar on github? | 16:42 |
| GyrosGeier | persistence is default | 16:49 |
| GyrosGeier | what the USB sticks are doing is creating a second partition that takes all the changes | 16:50 |
| GyrosGeier | and mount it as an overlay | 16:50 |
| GyrosGeier | plus offer a menu at boot that allows you to wipe the persistence partition | 16:50 |
| GyrosGeier | and/or boot with a ramdisk for changes, so changes are not persistent | 16:51 |
| fsmithred | I use refracta2usb to make usb sticks. | 16:51 |
| fsmithred | you can have a persistent partition (or loopback file) with or without encryption | 16:51 |
| fsmithred | https://sourceforge.net/projects/refracta/files/tools/ | 16:52 |
| fsmithred | https://refracta.org/docs/readme.refracta2usb.txt | 16:52 |
| furrymcgee | do live images use initrd? | 16:52 |
| fsmithred | yes | 16:52 |
| fsmithred | at leasst the ones that use debian live-boot do | 16:53 |
| GyrosGeier | the root fs needs to be an overlay | 16:56 |
| GyrosGeier | so you pretty much can't avoid an initramfs there | 16:56 |
| furrymcgee | how do you free disk space after upgrading root | 16:57 |
| GyrosGeier | live systems cannot sensibly do that | 16:58 |
| Kitty | I am trying to create my own .deb file to deliver some conf files to /etc | 17:05 |
| Kitty | except they aren't being writen when I do the install | 17:05 |
| Kitty | what am I doing wrong ? | 17:05 |
| GyrosGeier | are they listed as conffiles? | 17:07 |
| GyrosGeier | you might need a --force-confnew | 17:08 |
| Kitty | nope, but I worked it out | 17:09 |
| GyrosGeier | because dpkg tries to avoid overwriting conffiles | 17:09 |
| Kitty | typo | 17:09 |
| Kitty | they were isntalled, just not where expected | 17:09 |
| GyrosGeier | and everything in /etc is a conffile by default | 17:09 |
| fsmithred | that's always fun | 17:09 |
| GyrosGeier | and "avoid overwriting" means "not restoring them if the user deleted them" | 17:09 |
| Kitty | yeah, the files I am overwriting are nothing important | 17:10 |
| Kitty | /etc/inittab and /etc/default/grub | 17:10 |
| Kitty | nothing significiant | 17:10 |
| fsmithred | I have a spare inittab online. Let me know if you need it. | 17:13 |
| Kitty | it's working now | 17:13 |
| Kitty | well, the truth is in the reboot... | 17:13 |
| Kitty | WOO! | 17:15 |
| Kitty | my first deb package | 17:15 |
| fsmithred | congrats! | 17:15 |
| fsmithred | can we start giving you packages to maintain? | 17:16 |
| Kitty | well all this does is deliver 4 config files, and it doesn't seem to do any checks before overwriting existing files | 17:16 |
| Kitty | I just got fed up with doing the same 4 edits on each vm I create | 17:17 |
| GyrosGeier | dpkg checks that | 17:17 |
| GyrosGeier | you can test it by deleting one of the config files and reinstalling the package | 17:17 |
| GyrosGeier | the conffile should not reappear | 17:17 |
| GyrosGeier | without --force-confnew, that is | 17:17 |
| GyrosGeier | or --force-confmiss | 17:18 |
| Kitty | if I create my own debian repo, with my package in it, and my package depends on packages that are outside of my repo, will that work ok? | 17:21 |
| GyrosGeier | yes | 17:21 |
| GyrosGeier | as long as clients have all sources configured | 17:21 |
| GyrosGeier | IIRC reprepro has some kind of "testing migration" feature that will check dependencies, that would not work | 17:22 |
| Kitty | can I use the depends machanism to uninstall packages when I install mine ? | 17:25 |
| fsmithred | Provides: | 17:26 |
| fsmithred | ^^^ so your package will provide the dependency that requires the package you are removing/replacing | 17:27 |
| Kitty | what happens if I have conflicts, | 17:28 |
| Kitty | rather, if I have "Conflicts: <foo>" | 17:29 |
| Kitty | if I do apt-get install mypackage | 17:29 |
| Kitty | will it remove foo ? | 17:29 |
| fsmithred | I think so | 17:32 |
| fsmithred | or might refuse to install. Not sure. | 17:32 |
| morruth | afair, refuse to install | 17:36 |
| morruth | afair, it'll remove existing package, if it mentioned in Replaces:, but not sure | 17:37 |
| GyrosGeier | Replaces: alone replaces files in the other package | 17:39 |
| GyrosGeier | Replaces+Conflicts: replaces the entire package | 17:39 |
| morruth | https://wiki.debian.org/PackageTransition | 17:39 |
| GyrosGeier | Replaces+Conflicts+Provides also allows installation if other packages depend on the package being replaced | 17:39 |
| GyrosGeier | the Debian Policy manual documents this | 17:39 |
| GyrosGeier | it's from a time when people in Debian still cared about good design and documentation | 17:40 |
| Kitty | that's a while a go then... | 17:40 |
| Kitty | given I clock off in 15 mins, I think I'll leave the task of setting up my own app repo until tomorrow | 17:43 |
| Kitty | Need to work out if it's possible to do apt-cacher and an apt repo on the same machine. | 17:43 |
| Kitty | hmm, the dual stack v4/v6 ness is going to be fun | 17:45 |
| lunario | when i upgrade my chimaera installation to testing, will the package versions be upgraded to the same ones as in debian testing? or is devuan lagging behind in those? | 18:21 |
| morruth | afaik, lagging | 18:24 |
| morruth | couple of days | 18:24 |
| furrymcgee | what package? | 18:25 |
| furrymcgee | are they not redirected to debian servers? | 18:27 |
| golinux | furrymcgee: Yes. They Debian packages come directly from their servers then merged with the ones we repackage. | 18:37 |
| sadoon_albader[m | Ah speaking of which, a bit off-topic but | 18:41 |
| sadoon_albader[m | I'm close to being done with the unofficial bullseye for ppc64 and ppc | 18:41 |
| sadoon_albader[m | golinux: how many packages are needed for devuan to work given that all the debian packages are available? | 18:42 |
| golinux | sadoon_albader[m: That's good news! All packages that Devuan forks should be here: https://git.devuan.org/explore/repos?page=1&sort=recentupdate&q=devuan&topic=false | 18:50 |
| sadoon_albader[m | Rough counting, that looks like about 60 packages right? | 18:52 |
| sadoon_albader[m | If that's the case this is awesome, I can get it running very soon | 18:52 |
| golinux | Not all Debian packages are available. There is a blacklist: https://pkgmaster.devuan.org/bannedpackages.txt | 18:53 |
| sadoon_albader[m | blacklisting is easy, building some of these security updates is proving to be a little painful though :P | 18:54 |
| sadoon_albader[m | nodejs does not build on powerpc and ffmpeg depends on things that need nodejs.. | 18:54 |
| sadoon_albader[m | Anyways this sounds great, I'll hit two birds with one stone | 18:55 |
| golinux | You might also find this resource helpful: https://pkgmaster.devuan.org/devuan/ | 18:57 |
| golinux | Thanks for checking in. I'll be afk for a while. | 18:58 |
| sadoon_albader[m | no problem, see ya | 18:58 |
| FatPhil | wierd - I just unstalled gcc on my (ascii) system, and upon invoking it I'm greeted with "abcsq.c:1:19: fatal error: stdio.h: No such file or directory". dpkg -S confirms - no stdio.h on the system. | 19:27 |
| furrymcgee | I diffed devuan and debian Sources.gz, the Testsuite and Vcs-Git fields are shifted | 19:47 |
| furrymcgee | there is also a diff in Directory on every package | 19:53 |
| bb|hcb | FatPhil: Do you have libc6-dev? Try installing build-essential (that pulls lots of stuff) | 20:08 |
| FatPhil | build-essential seems like it was missing: "0 packages upgraded, 11 newly installed, 0 to remove and 0 not upgraded." | 20:18 |
| golinux | furrymcgee: The mechanism for merging debian and devuan repos is amprolla. https://git.devuan.org/devuan/amprolla3 | 20:47 |
| furrymcgee | the order maybe defined by sources_keys in https://git.devuan.org/devuan/amprolla3/src/commit/869d243f25be650b851d6ff9d46e73300afe2569/lib/config.def.py | 21:00 |
| furrymcgee | please see this for example https://paste.debian.net/1223464 | 21:06 |
| golinux | furrymcgee: A better channel to ask about package management would be #devuan-dev | 21:35 |
| furrymcgee | yes its a good channel for more detailed discussion | 21:40 |
| bb|hcb | furrymcgee: What do you want to achieve? It is not clear from the paste... | 21:41 |
| golinux | bb|hcb: Thanks for jumping in | 21:42 |
| furrymcgee | there was a question of package versions in testing thats why I am comparing Sources.gz files | 21:44 |
| furrymcgee | only for statistic reason | 21:46 |
| bb|hcb | There is a tool wrap-and-sort; because these files are some form of key-value(s) it does not matter in what position the key is specified; after wrap-and-sort both files, you can diff them | 21:46 |
| eyalroz | I have a locale question. LANG is set to en_IL , but LANGUAGE is set to en_IL:en . Is this a legit state of affairs? | 21:47 |
| bb|hcb | Actually wrap-and-sort is used during packaging to keep similar files in the source package in order, so it will need -f file to operate on files outside of a package | 21:47 |
| bb|hcb | ...and the order is important to get a nicer diff between versions | 21:48 |
| bb|hcb | About mirrors - Devuan mirrors have /merged that gets translated by some magic to /devuan/pool or externally redirected to /debian/pool on a external mirror. This is how a Devuan package mirror is only 50G while a Debian one is 1.6T | 21:54 |
| furrymcgee | I would expect this command to represent the amount if changes in devuan# diff <(wget -O- http://ftp.debian.org/debian/dists/testing/main/source/Sources.gz | gunzip -) <(wget -O- http://deb.devuan.org/merged/dists/testing/main/source/Sources.gz | gunzip -) | diffstat | 22:02 |
| bb|hcb | furrymcgee: Oh, no... That would not produce any meaningful result | 22:45 |
| furrymcgee | yes it was intended to be a quick approximation | 22:49 |
| bb|hcb | wget -q -O- http://deb.devuan.org/merged/dists/testing/main/source/Sources.gz|gunzip|egrep -B2 '^Version: .*devuan.*' | 22:50 |
| bb|hcb | try this | 22:50 |
| rrq | or perhaps you might want to contrast `grep pool/DEBIAN` with `grep pool/DEVUAN` in http://deb.devuan.org/merged/dists/testing/main/source/Sources.gz | 22:51 |
| bb|hcb | It breaks on tasksel, because binary list is multiline, but you can get a pretty rough idea about the forked packages. | 22:51 |
| furrymcgee | in my opinion all entries should be equal for identical packages | 22:52 |
| bb|hcb | Yes, that will be better, because it will also show the things packaged only in Devuan | 22:53 |
| furrymcgee | the biggest problem would be to ask debian to change the pool directory | 22:53 |
| bb|hcb | No, they may be reordered or reformatted without any semantic change | 22:53 |
| bb|hcb | In order to compare, you will need a proper parser for the format | 22:55 |
| bb|hcb | I didn't get that - why ask them to change it? | 22:55 |
| furrymcgee | to match "Directory: pool/DEBIAN/main/d/dpkg" for example | 22:56 |
| bb|hcb | That is easy without changing anything... Last word is unique | 22:58 |
| rrq | furrymcgee: yes, the meta files are generated to suit their repositories. Devuan is based on a "virtual overlay" that allows a mapping of Devuan's furrymcgee: yes, the meta files are generated to suit their repositories. Devuan uses a "virtual overlay" where the pool/DEBIAN/.. paths get rewritten into proper debian paths by the deb.devuan.org web services | 22:59 |
| * rrq repeating repeating myself myself | 22:59 | |
| furrymcgee | there could be Directory: pool/UBUNTU as well | 23:01 |
| rrq | indeed, but who wants to suffer? | 23:01 |
| rrq | simly that the deb.devuan.org servers would need the additional response rules to offer 302 redirects for those urls... | 23:03 |
| bb|hcb | Ubuntu? That is not a good idea, just because their packages are not compatible with Debian/Devuan; different libs, different compiler version... Maybe some very simple packages will work but generally packages compiled for Ubuntu will not work on Devuan | 23:06 |
| furrymcgee | there are many apt repository interchangeable, this might need a close standard for Sources.gz | 23:07 |
| bb|hcb | Unlike Ubnutu, Devuan closely follows Debian releases, e.g. chimaera is based on bullseye and most of the things are identical | 23:11 |
| rrq | yes, with the difference in filesystem expectations it remains "better" to let any such mixing be left to the end-user's peril | 23:12 |
| ShorTie | like 90% of devuan comes from debian | 23:12 |
| bb|hcb | Besides the forked packages discussed above and the banned packages found in http://deb.devuan.org/bannedpackages.txt | 23:13 |
| furrymcgee | yes it is important to the users to have a comparison | 23:15 |
| furrymcgee | without any clutter of identical packages | 23:17 |
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