| gnarface | fsmithred, golinux, one of you guys recognize brocashelm's problem here, right? | 00:49 |
|---|---|---|
| gnarface | i see it come up a lot, but not being an xfce user myself i keep forgetting what the fix is | 00:49 |
| fsmithred | brocashelm, does the power-manager open if you click on the blank space? | 00:52 |
| golinux | Sorry, I don't | 00:52 |
| golinux | I never have to touch my power-manager | 00:52 |
| fsmithred | Maybe edit the Icon= line in /usr/share/applications/xfce4-power-manager-settings.desktop | 00:53 |
| fsmithred | The problem doesn't sound familiar. | 00:53 |
| fsmithred | Well, I've seen a problem where highlighted text in the apps menu goes blank, but that's a case of missing gtk engines. | 00:54 |
| Xenguy | If it's a recurring problem for different people, then maybe checking the forum is worth a shot? | 00:56 |
| chomwitt | hi. debtags has an update command. shouldnt it be better to have a new minor version so that apt-get update should update debtags database ? | 01:16 |
| gnarface | chomwitt: not a forked package, so that's a question for Debian | 01:17 |
| chomwitt | gnarface, ok. | 01:18 |
| chomwitt | gnarface, generally is there a policy for such kind of behavior ? i mean a program doing updates in a way that seems autonomous or independent of devuans update mechanisms? | 01:20 |
| chomwitt | yt-dlp , firefox , debtags come in my mind | 01:21 |
| gnarface | chomwitt: i don't remember for sure, but i think so, and what i remember from before Devuan existed was that it's strictly against debian's packaging policy | 01:21 |
| gnarface | for example, if you look at the repo version of firefox, they've actually patched out it's ability to self-update independently of the repo | 01:22 |
| gnarface | s/it's/its/ | 01:22 |
| gnarface | maybe that was just a personal preference of the debian firefox maintainers though, i don't know for sure | 01:23 |
| gnarface | and it's been a decade+ so things can change too | 01:23 |
| gnarface | it's probably worth questioning them about, but maybe don't mention you're using Devuan in the process | 01:23 |
| chomwitt | gnarface, thanks for highlighting that. so indeed that autonomous update is not a very kind behaviour and efforts are taken to mitigate such mechanisms. | 01:25 |
| chomwitt | ok i wont | 01:25 |
| gnarface | well, they used to be, anyway | 01:25 |
| chomwitt | well i thing steam is also champion in that behavior | 01:26 |
| chomwitt | s/thing/think | 01:26 |
| gnarface | yea, Steam definitely does it and in fact needs it to keep working, but Steam is in non-free and the rules there are different. the rules for contrib might also be different (yt-dlp is in contrib, isn't it?) | 01:27 |
| gnarface | but firefox is in main | 01:28 |
| gnarface | and it's present as part of several default installs | 01:28 |
| gnarface | so that might make things different | 01:28 |
| chomwitt | once i thougth of appimage like software as a guest coming in your house bringing with him a truck full of his favorite appliances... in a way doing (as a software) you updates feels like it... :-) | 01:29 |
| rwp | If it is a packaged thing then it's good to not have it self-update itself. But a packaged thing that has a database can self-update the database. | 01:29 |
| rwp | So Firefox itself patches out the self-update because that would work against it being packaged and a package update. Otherwise ff-1.0 might self-update to ff-2.3 but then the system might think ff-2.0 is newer and upgrade from ff-1.0 to ff-2.0 and actually downgrade the version due to the self update. And with web browsers the downgrade might not be compatible with its internal database files. Which would create problems. | 01:30 |
| rwp | But SpamAssassin for example and ClamAV too have non-packaged rules files that are automatically updated. That's separate from the packaged program files. But the database of rules get updated continuously. | 01:31 |
| chomwitt | gnarface, where can i see if yt-dlp belongs to contrib ? | 01:32 |
| gnarface | chomwitt: pkginfo.devuan.org | 01:32 |
| gnarface | looks like main though | 01:33 |
| gnarface | tbh seems like it belongs in contrib to me, but whatever | 01:33 |
| chomwitt | gnarface, searching for yt-dlp in pkginfo.devuan.org i see the versions in various devuan releases . but not that info . | 01:34 |
| rwp | I think having something like yt-dlp in main is a bad plan because Google is constantly thrashing APIs and then yt-dlp must change quickly and react to the new Internet environment. Which means yt-dlp should be in stable-updates at the least. | 01:34 |
| rwp | Given that it is in main and not stable-updates me as a user of it will always be frustrated that it is not updated as often or as quickly as it is needed to be updated. | 01:35 |
| chomwitt | rwp, that is my opinion also on yt-dlp . a fast target.. | 01:35 |
| gnarface | chomwitt: you don't see under the versions stuff like ceres/main, excalibur/main? | 01:35 |
| rwp | Right. I think yt-dlp is a good example of a volatile thing that should get daily updates. | 01:35 |
| chomwitt | gnarface, sorry. missed that | 01:36 |
| gnarface | rwp: well, it also does appear in backports/main, so there does seem to be some recognition of that problem | 01:36 |
| chomwitt | gnarface, while i am at it i noticed that steam went from non-free to contrib | 01:37 |
| rwp | Backports is good but backports is also somewhat of a way to back new things into a release without offending the release management. | 01:37 |
| gnarface | yt-dlp just seems like a good candidate for contrib to me because though open-source it's entirely for an dependent on a commercial 3rd-party service | 01:37 |
| chomwitt | so a general question is: is autonomous download-update behavior a good reason for not being in main ? | 01:38 |
| rwp | yt-dlp is not _entirely_ dependent upon a commercial 3rd party as it does actually work well with free license sites as well. | 01:38 |
| gnarface | chomwitt: no, just steam-installer moved to contrib, not the actual steam package (i assume this is because it's an unofficial installer) | 01:38 |
| rwp | It just so happens that one huge commercial too big to fail site is the biggest site on the planet and so when it glitches everyone holds their breath. | 01:39 |
| chomwitt | gnarface, ok. thanks for that info. | 01:39 |
| gnarface | chomwitt: actually, looking at the versions it seems like that replaced the native steam package for some reason | 01:40 |
| gnarface | (probably to reduce maintenance) | 01:41 |
| gnarface | (Steam updates so often that packaging it is probably almost futile) | 01:41 |
| gnarface | with the old package, it'd immediately have to download 2GB of updates on first launch before you could even use it to log in | 01:43 |
| gnarface | rwp: noted | 01:44 |
| chomwitt | isnt it too much to call a thin steam installer free ( i assume that contrib contains free packages) when the main part that it download is nonfree ? | 01:46 |
| gnarface | no, i don't think so, it was my understanding that contrib was specifically for the particular category of "open-source stuff that nonetheless depends on closed-source stuff" | 01:46 |
| gnarface | so for example if someone writes a python script to automatically install steam for you, that'd be neither strictly free nor strictly non-free, so they need a 3rd category | 01:47 |
| chomwitt | well .. depents is one thing.... an installer seems to me something else | 01:47 |
| gnarface | well, i would assume if it was an installer actually made officially by Valve for Debian, then it'd be in non-free | 01:48 |
| chomwitt | i guess i feel that a 'free' installer of a non-free software seems like playing with words | 01:49 |
| gnarface | yea, maintainers for that are listed as "Debian Games Team" | 01:49 |
| gnarface | see here in the sidebar: https://packages.debian.org/bookworm/steam-installer | 01:49 |
| gnarface | so that's an open-source, 3rd party installer for a closed-source product | 01:49 |
| gnarface | and i assume probably because in the end it was less maintenance than actually maintaining a package for their official installer | 01:50 |
| gnarface | ... which basically had turned into a 2GB base install that had to download itself twice | 01:51 |
| chomwitt | gnarface, but why you need that ? sound silly ... we could imagine a free installer of anything! | 01:51 |
| gnarface | heh, well we're starting to stray offtopic with this speculation, because i don't actually know, but the track record shows that Valve isn't great at Linux and they need all the help they can get :-D | 01:52 |
| Xenguy | yt-dlp is one of those exceptions to my preference for using packaged software. I install the binary (I think from the git forge?) and use 'yt-dlp -U' to update it whenever need be | 01:52 |
| chomwitt | gnarface, ok . sorry if i got carried away. | 01:52 |
| gnarface | no worries | 01:52 |
| chomwitt | i guess we could say that steam outsourced that part of their code base to the people that do it better | 01:53 |
| gnarface | i just want to stop it from getting carried away, because we can definitely derail this channel talking about Valve's Linux support issues all night, but it's not super productive and i'm sure they're trying their best | 01:53 |
| chomwitt | i agree | 01:53 |
| gnarface | and yea, it's completely believable that Debian maintainers could be enough better at that part that they could trivially simplify something that Valve, a traditionally Windows developer, was overcomplicating | 01:55 |
| chomwitt | my main question then is back to the policy regarding packages with autoupdates . should that be a sufficient reason to no be in main ? (lets say yt-dlp as example) | 01:56 |
| gnarface | NFC | 01:57 |
| gnarface | (officially, anyway) | 01:57 |
| chomwitt | nfc ? | 01:57 |
| gnarface | no fucking clue; maybe worth asking some Debian maintainers about | 01:57 |
| chomwitt | ok | 01:57 |
| gnarface | like maybe this guy: Maintainer: Enrico Rossi <e.rossi@tecnobrain.com> | 01:59 |
| gnarface | he's the one listed as responsible for debtags 2.1.5 | 01:59 |
| chomwitt | i ll email him. | 02:00 |
| Beer | Hello! How to debug the netinst ISO when it fails during upgrade of packages gathered immediately after network repository selection? | 05:07 |
| Beer | I am facing the problem with the Daedalus 5.0.1 netinstall ISO, but not the Chimaera 4.0.0 netinstall one | 05:19 |
| golinux | Beer: Nice to see you! It's been a while. I just wish I could answer your question . . . :( | 05:20 |
| Beer | In suspect a GPG keys setup problem: Invoking a shell, chrooting to /target/, and update packages, I get GPG signature errors | 05:35 |
| Beer | THe same test made with the Chimaera 4.0.0 netinstall at the same point in the install process (before task selection) doesn't yield GPG errors | 05:36 |
| Beer | THe selected mirror was the generic one, deb.devuan.org, in both cases, so it's not an APT configuration problem | 05:38 |
| Beer | I am surprised if I am the only one having encountered such a problem: I really did nothing specific | 05:38 |
| Beer | I need to leave now. Hope this info will be useful | 05:39 |
| Beer | As of now at least netinstall ISOs seem to be unusable | 05:39 |
| brocashelm | fsmithred: i checked the launcher and it was the same as on my other installs showing the icon | 07:31 |
| brocashelm | i also checked and the gtk2/3 engines are in place | 07:31 |
| brocashelm | i can still right click on that empty gap and launch the pop-up ui | 07:31 |
| rrq | beer: daedauls 5.0.1 netinstall (amd64) "works for me"(TM) .. at a guess you used "expert install" and made choices and maybe other hands-on? | 08:00 |
| onefang | rrq: We are currently a pub with no Beer. | 08:06 |
| cousin_luigi | Greetings. | 11:43 |
| cousin_luigi | Is it normal that the installer wants to use ext2 on / ? | 11:43 |
| APic | Hi | 11:43 |
| APic | Cannot You choose between ext2, ext3 and ext4? | 11:43 |
| cousin_luigi | No, the choice is between ext2 and FAT16/32 IIRC. | 11:44 |
| fsmithred | check sha256sum to make sure the iso downloaded correctly | 11:44 |
| cousin_luigi | Could it be because I'm installing on a flash drive? | 11:44 |
| fsmithred | no | 11:44 |
| fsmithred | I've done that many times, including with gpt | 11:45 |
| cousin_luigi | I'm also running the installer inside a VM | 11:45 |
| fsmithred | that's what I usually do | 11:45 |
| cousin_luigi | But I didn't have this problem with plain debian | 11:45 |
| rrq | don't skip the step "load components" | 11:45 |
| fsmithred | make sure the iso is good | 11:45 |
| rrq | don't skip the step "load components" | 11:46 |
| rrq | don't skip the step "load components" | 11:46 |
| fsmithred | Is it necessary to select any components? | 11:46 |
| rrq | no | 11:46 |
| rrq | those are additional, optional components | 11:47 |
| rrq | the step adds the non-optional ones | 11:47 |
| cousin_luigi | fsmithred: "devuan_daedalus_5.0.1_amd64_server.iso: OK" | 11:47 |
| fsmithred | follow rrq's advice. | 11:47 |
| cousin_luigi | What components? | 11:48 |
| fsmithred | cousin_luigi, did you do expert install or regular install? | 11:52 |
| cousin_luigi | expert | 11:52 |
| cousin_luigi | I see them now | 11:52 |
| fsmithred | yeah, in the list | 11:53 |
| cousin_luigi | weird, it works now | 11:53 |
| fsmithred | are you using qemu or virtualbox? | 11:53 |
| cousin_luigi | qemu | 11:53 |
| cousin_luigi | virtualbox is horrid with usb passthrough | 11:54 |
| fsmithred | it's not booting for me in qemu | 11:54 |
| cousin_luigi | the installed system? | 11:54 |
| fsmithred | the netinstall iso | 11:54 |
| cousin_luigi | not the one I'm using | 11:54 |
| fsmithred | I have a few daedalus systems that all boot fine | 11:54 |
| fsmithred | yeah, but the bootloader should be the same | 11:54 |
| cousin_luigi | I can try it afterwards | 11:56 |
| cousin_luigi | Is ext2 more reliable than ext4, you reckon? | 11:57 |
| cousin_luigi | With random power losses, I mean. | 11:57 |
| fsmithred | no | 11:57 |
| fsmithred | there's no journal, so you would probably lose data | 11:57 |
| fsmithred | and you would also get to do long filesystem checks at boot that ask you about every file on the system. | 11:58 |
| fsmithred | maybe not all, but more than you want to deal with. | 11:58 |
| cousin_luigi | Damn, I left for a moment and suspend kicked in. Now it's all to be done anew | 12:27 |
| fsmithred | suspend or just blank screen? Host or VM? Space bar doesn't fix it? | 12:29 |
| cousin_luigi | No, qemu can't even detect the disk anymore. | 12:29 |
| cousin_luigi | suspend to ram, whatever it's called these days | 12:30 |
| fsmithred | maybe you should only let it suspend when you tell it to. | 12:30 |
| cousin_luigi | Yes, it's not my usual host system | 12:30 |
| rwp | When running an "expert" install and things are not working. Restart and try the normal install. It will probably work. | 15:30 |
| xnovax | why is libusb support missing for retroarch :< | 15:31 |
| joe315415 | i get no internet after i boot, i have manualy added the ip but still get no internet | 16:49 |
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