| hightower3 | I removed libpolicykit-1 as a dependency from libvirt-daemon-system | 00:01 |
|---|---|---|
| hightower3 | and it installed and started | 00:01 |
| hightower3 | and I connected to it via virt-manager | 00:01 |
| hightower3 | (it == libvirt-daemon-system) | 00:01 |
| hightower3 | seems like that's it, thanks for discussion/pointers | 00:03 |
| fsmithred | cool. now I know who to ask next time I want to try virt-manager | 00:03 |
| minnesotags | I'm trying to install stupid notepadqq from their add-repository packages, but it flakes out because "not debian". How do I fake it out? | 02:41 |
| gnarface | minnesotags: it's probably a bad idea. don't they have a source archive you can compile? | 02:43 |
| gnarface | you can easily make simple packages from a source archive with checkinstall | 02:44 |
| fsmithred | ID=debian in /etc/os-release | 02:47 |
| fsmithred | will probably work. It seems to be fooling grub. | 02:48 |
| minnesotags | I suppose I need to learn to compile shit eventually.... | 02:56 |
| gnarface | minnesotags: most stuff is pretty easy to compile. it is a good way to gauge the quality of the software, actually. | 03:12 |
| gnarface | (Xorg and the kernel being historic exceptions to that rule, Wine, however, is not) | 03:13 |
| furrywolf | by far the worst thing to compile that I've ever found is python. | 03:27 |
| furrywolf | wine is easy! | 03:28 |
| gnarface | eh, not as easy if you're trying to build the dual-arch 32bit+64bit wine | 03:33 |
| gnarface | not on debian anyway | 03:33 |
| gnarface | because a bunch of the dependencies aren't multi-arch safe yet | 03:34 |
| gnarface | still possible, just complicated | 03:34 |
| gnarface | a lot more complicated than just doing ./configure && make && checkinstall make install | 03:34 |
| furrywolf | I compiled multi-arch debian wine on this box. the only hard part was... python. heh. | 03:42 |
| furrywolf | note, I compiled unstable's source packages, which may be a lot easier than upstream's source. | 03:43 |
| gnarface | eh, maybe you got lucky and tried it when it worked | 03:45 |
| gnarface | or i'm talking about an entirely different wine version | 03:45 |
| gnarface | one that there aren't src packages for | 03:45 |
| gnarface | at this point i think wine 1.6 is actually pretty well hammered down | 03:46 |
| gnarface | but things get sketchier when you're trying to play WoW :-p | 03:46 |
| furrywolf | wine-4.0 (Debian 4.0-2~bpo9+1) | 03:46 |
| furrywolf | hrmm, looks like I actually put the backports version on this box. | 03:47 |
| furrywolf | I may have my boxes confused. | 03:47 |
| furrywolf | lol | 03:47 |
| gnarface | heh | 03:48 |
| furrywolf | ohh, I remember, on this one I wasted a whole bunch of time compiling gtk:i386, because of python. | 03:49 |
| gnarface | oh that's right, wine stable is up to 4.0 now, i remember. i had forgotten that | 03:49 |
| gnarface | wine-development and wine-staging are different creatures though | 03:49 |
| furrywolf | I compiled gtk myself to get recent bug fixes, but that meant when I went to install the bpo wine, I also had to build gtk for i386... | 03:50 |
| furrywolf | and building gtk (for any arch) is a nightmare because of python. | 03:50 |
| systemdlete | almost have the laptop installed now. It asks me which kernel to install -- recommendations? | 04:05 |
| systemdlete | (defaults to inux-image-amd64) | 04:06 |
| systemdlete | should I take the default? Is there any real difference? | 04:06 |
| furrywolf | should be good | 04:06 |
| systemdlete | ok, thx | 04:07 |
| gnarface | systemdlete: "linux-image-amd64" is the meta-package that will ensure the kernel keeps getting updated along with all the rest of the system updates, so that is probably the one you usually want | 04:09 |
| systemdlete | I hope something can be done for future releases wrt the installer: My laptop comes up in portrait mode rather than the expected landscape (because it IS a tablet after all). There should be an option. I tried various combinations of grub boot options, with no luck. | 04:09 |
| systemdlete | thanks gnarface | 04:09 |
| gnarface | systemdlete: portrait mode in the gui, or also before Xorg starts? | 04:10 |
| systemdlete | during install | 04:10 |
| gnarface | during install even | 04:11 |
| gnarface | hmmm, well ... there might be a way to fudge it | 04:11 |
| systemdlete | yes. Haven't gotten far enough to tell you more | 04:11 |
| gnarface | some video drivers do support screen rotation natively, and you could define that in a xorg.conf snippet | 04:12 |
| systemdlete | xorg.conf is way ahead of the game | 04:12 |
| systemdlete | this is during install | 04:12 |
| gnarface | and if the text console is supported by modesetting aka "kms" then i know you can set resolution for that in grub, so maybe it supports screen rotation too, but i don't know for sure, you'd have to consult the docs | 04:12 |
| systemdlete | I'm sure there is a way to fix it after the system is up and running on its own. | 04:13 |
| gnarface | for the installer itself, i think your only options is kernel command-line parameters but none come to mind. you honestly might just have to tough it out through the installer | 04:13 |
| systemdlete | well then, I guess I am getting really good at toughing it out | 04:14 |
| systemdlete | uh-oh. I forgot about this part... where it asks which packages | 04:16 |
| systemdlete | I had serious problems last time with this step. If I pick the defaults here, will I get a working X11 with Xfce? Or do I have to select xfce (which says it is default) | 04:16 |
| systemdlete | ? | 04:16 |
| gnarface | systemdlete: don't select anything. install what you want after | 04:17 |
| systemdlete | good idea! | 04:17 |
| gnarface | systemdlete: it doesn't actually specify that, but "nothing" is a perfectly acceptable choice | 04:17 |
| gnarface | "standard system utils" probably never hurt anyone though | 04:17 |
| systemdlete | specify what? | 04:17 |
| gnarface | it doesn't tell you that you can pick nothing | 04:17 |
| systemdlete | oh. | 04:18 |
| gnarface | it sorta infers you have to choose SOME of those checkboxes, and i think even checks some for you | 04:18 |
| systemdlete | gotcha | 04:18 |
| gnarface | but you can actually just uncheck all of them | 04:18 |
| gnarface | you should still get a bootable system | 04:18 |
| systemdlete | is that damage from debian, or new damage from us? | 04:18 |
| gnarface | it has always been that way | 04:18 |
| systemdlete | (the installer clumsiness) | 04:18 |
| systemdlete | so it is debian then | 04:18 |
| gnarface | this is the new and heavily improved, super user-friendly overhaul of their notoriously difficult installer | 04:19 |
| gnarface | you should have seen it back in the potato days :-p | 04:19 |
| gnarface | you get used to it though | 04:20 |
| gnarface | in expert mode, it has usefulness that other installers lack | 04:20 |
| systemdlete | this install is going better than I figured... after several false starts due to how this machine boots up under linux | 04:20 |
| systemdlete | didn't get that i8402 error again, but I did have a hang when it was detecting the emmc card... twice. | 04:21 |
| systemdlete | but several reboots, prayers, and rain dances seems to have worked. | 04:21 |
| systemdlete | now if it will just complete the installation without incident... and make the laptop boot into linux, I'll be content. | 04:22 |
| systemdlete | I'll be able to use linux on my new laptop convertible tablet while watching tv in my recliner. Like the old fart I am quickly becoming. | 04:22 |
| gnarface | systemdlete: cheers to that | 04:23 |
| gnarface | systemdlete: a newer kernel may help the eMMC stability problems. | 04:24 |
| systemdlete | yeah, but sadly, that seems to be an after-install task. | 04:24 |
| gnarface | that's fine | 04:24 |
| gnarface | it just has to complete the install and boot first | 04:24 |
| systemdlete | so I have to put up with these stability issues during the install process. | 04:24 |
| systemdlete | (right, right...) | 04:25 |
| gnarface | well, just for now. the next release's installer will undoubtedly fix at least that problem | 04:25 |
| gnarface | because it was already fixed in the kernel upstream | 04:25 |
| gnarface | (i assume, anyway) | 04:25 |
| systemdlete | emmc problem? | 04:25 |
| gnarface | i've been hanging out in some ARM device channels, and yea i think i remember hearing them talking about fixing multiple eMMC stability problems and throughput speed issues (also applying to USB stuff) *after* kernel 4.9 which is in ascii | 04:26 |
| gnarface | so in theory all you should need is to grab the backport kernel once your install completes | 04:26 |
| systemdlete | this IS ascii i'm installing btw | 04:26 |
| gnarface | ascii-backports i think has 4.19 or later now | 04:27 |
| gnarface | which is much more current | 04:27 |
| systemdlete | I thought 4.19 was not stable... | 04:27 |
| systemdlete | (trying to recall where I heard that uttered. Was either here or over in #adelie...) | 04:28 |
| gnarface | well i think 5.2 is out and it's not stable either | 04:28 |
| gnarface | so ymmv | 04:28 |
| gnarface | it might not necessarily mean unstable for everyone | 04:29 |
| systemdlete | well, if this system (laptop) is stable after install, I might leave well enough alone | 04:29 |
| gnarface | that wouldn't be a bad idea | 04:29 |
| gnarface | after all, the installer could be using a kernel even older than 4.9 for all i know | 04:29 |
| systemdlete | in any event, I will look at 4.19 and see what it has to offer. My only worry is that it might brick my laptop somehow (unlikely, but these cheap imports are not exactly robust) | 04:30 |
| systemdlete | 4.9.0-6 (from console) | 04:30 |
| systemdlete | it's eating grubs now... (almost done) | 04:33 |
| furrywolf | 4.14 here, seems to work fine.. | 04:34 |
| systemdlete | efi shadow copy or no? | 04:35 |
| systemdlete | the default is "no" | 04:35 |
| systemdlete | but this IS an efi laptop | 04:35 |
| systemdlete | and it's a 32 bit EFI on a 64 bit laptop | 04:35 |
| systemdlete | ??? | 04:36 |
| systemdlete | adelie channel people told me they had never tried an install to this mixed platform | 04:37 |
| systemdlete | they seemed to be concerned that it might not work. On the other hand, my adelie usb stick did boot the laptop, so there must be some hope there | 04:38 |
| systemdlete | also, this is a eMMC drive, not SSD. I undestand that eMMC is not as sturdy as SSD | 04:38 |
| systemdlete | I think I'll take the option (not default) here | 04:40 |
| systemdlete | see what happens. ::EYEROLL:: | 04:40 |
| systemdlete | furrywolf: What kind of hw are you running there? My laptop is brand new, it's a ASUS transformer (T101A), it has a eMMC card, something called an i8402 that sometimes causes hangs, and on and on. | 04:42 |
| systemdlete | but it's nice to know it works, at least nominally | 04:43 |
| systemdlete | who-hoo! booted to login prompt | 04:44 |
| systemdlete | all sideways... | 04:44 |
| golinux | Congrats! | 04:44 |
| furrywolf | systemdlete: toughbook cf-52 with i5-540m | 04:45 |
| furrywolf | it's not brand new, but it's not ancient | 04:47 |
| systemdlete | rotated the screen, but now seems all locked up | 04:48 |
| systemdlete | well I can still get a console | 04:51 |
| systemdlete | after reboot and logging in again, the display is landscape and whatever rebooting did, seems to have fixed the weirdness | 04:52 |
| furrywolf | "fixed". :P | 04:56 |
| gnarface | systemdlete: so you're at a text prompt with no gui? | 04:57 |
| systemdlete | no, I have xfce | 04:57 |
| systemdlete | no worries | 04:58 |
| systemdlete | can't get online though | 04:58 |
| gnarface | alright, so you got it? | 04:58 |
| gnarface | oh | 04:58 |
| systemdlete | I used wireless during install | 04:58 |
| gnarface | yea | 04:58 |
| systemdlete | and it still sees my home wifi | 04:58 |
| gnarface | open /etc/network/interfaces in a text editor | 04:58 |
| gnarface | wait | 04:58 |
| systemdlete | yeah, was getting ready to do that next | 04:58 |
| systemdlete | what | 04:58 |
| gnarface | did you get the full dvd set? | 04:59 |
| gnarface | the non net-installer? | 04:59 |
| gnarface | at least the first CD or DVD? | 04:59 |
| systemdlete | I did a net-install | 04:59 |
| gnarface | eh, i'm confused now | 04:59 |
| gnarface | you ended up without a gui network config tool in xfce? | 05:00 |
| furrywolf | yes. ascii does that. | 05:00 |
| gnarface | that's not the part i'm confused about | 05:01 |
| gnarface | i'm trying to figure out how he got xfce without a net connection | 05:01 |
| furrywolf | I've mentioned at least a dozen times, roughly correlated to how many times I've installed it, that the installer reallllly needs to copy over the installer wifi config to the install. | 05:01 |
| gnarface | hmmm, i thought it did... | 05:02 |
| systemdlete | I did a net-install, as I said above, and I used wireless during install, as I said above | 05:02 |
| furrywolf | the installer has wifi. it doesn't transfer over the settings to the installed system. and unless you select the right tasks, no wifi manager gets installer. have to manually set up wpa_supplicant if so, and it's a fucking pain in the ass. | 05:02 |
| gnarface | huh | 05:02 |
| furrywolf | systemdlete: so you didn't get wicd? | 05:03 |
| systemdlete | wicd is there. Otherwise, how could the desktop network widget list all the network SSIDs? | 05:04 |
| furrywolf | oh, I mis-understood the problem. | 05:04 |
| furrywolf | nevermine. | 05:04 |
| furrywolf | nevermind. | 05:04 |
| systemdlete | I said above, it still sees my home wifi | 05:04 |
| furrywolf | you must have installed some of the task packages. :) | 05:05 |
| systemdlete | (sorry maybe I type TOO MUCH...) | 05:05 |
| systemdlete | what is supposed to happen when I select one of the networks listed? | 05:05 |
| gnarface | i thought the problem was that it's set to the WRONG wifi and you had done a bare-bones install and were just missing some packages | 05:05 |
| systemdlete | isn't it supposed to pop a dialog to enter my pass phrase? | 05:06 |
| systemdlete | or am I missing something as furrywolf suggested a bit? | 05:06 |
| furrywolf | if you select a network, click connect, enter a passphrase (can be non-obvious, make sure you have the right type selected), and connect again, it should connect... | 05:06 |
| furrywolf | no, you should have all you need. I thought you ended up with the same problem I get too often with ending up with nothing other than wpa_supplicant installed. | 05:07 |
| systemdlete | if I RIGHT click the widget, I can see the networks. Selecting one won't work... but if I LEFT click the widget, I get a UI and I can configure my network here | 05:08 |
| systemdlete | so now I am ONLINE folks!!! | 05:09 |
| systemdlete | So now it is time for some fun | 05:10 |
| gnarface | hooraay! | 05:10 |
| systemdlete | like... separating the keyboard | 05:10 |
| gnarface | hah | 05:10 |
| systemdlete | hoohoohahahahah! bwahhahahahhah! | 05:10 |
| gnarface | i would recommend doing a full update if you haven't already, and then making a backup, first | 05:10 |
| gnarface | that's what i'd recommend | 05:11 |
| gnarface | maybe stopping to upgrade the kernel if it crashes during that | 05:11 |
| gnarface | to the ascii-backport kernel | 05:11 |
| furrywolf | netinst should end up with current packages | 05:11 |
| systemdlete | except for the kernel though? | 05:12 |
| gnarface | everything depends on if it as unstable as it was in the installer | 05:12 |
| systemdlete | well, that behaved well. I separated the keyboard, the mouse pointer still responded to my finger but there is no way to actually key anything in | 05:12 |
| gnarface | mabye it already has the fixes in the current kernel | 05:13 |
| gnarface | they've patched it a bunch of times | 05:13 |
| systemdlete | I can already see I am going to need a hub | 05:15 |
| furrywolf | I don't know if xfce is intended for touch-centric devices... | 05:16 |
| systemdlete | it works, furrywolf | 05:16 |
| systemdlete | well, some touches work | 05:17 |
| systemdlete | during install, I noticed that touch worked in the full graphical install version | 05:18 |
| furrywolf | I mean, things like popping up an onscreen keyboard when appropriate, pinch zoom, and other things than basic pointing. | 05:18 |
| systemdlete | does ascii use wayland? | 05:18 |
| furrywolf | no | 05:18 |
| systemdlete | so do I need synaptics driver? | 05:19 |
| gnarface | you might want it if it can support your touch pad | 05:19 |
| gnarface | i mean probably will want it | 05:19 |
| systemdlete | (I want to enable double-tap as left click and maybe other useful things) | 05:19 |
| gnarface | sounds like that's what you want then | 05:20 |
| gnarface | there's only really that one | 05:20 |
| gnarface | and the various mouse drivers | 05:20 |
| onefang | Is this a touch screen, or a touch pad? | 05:21 |
| gnarface | good question | 05:21 |
| gnarface | i assumed the device has both | 05:22 |
| gnarface | i don't know if synaptics would handle a touchscreen | 05:22 |
| onefang | I was using a touch screen based computer for a while, it worked no matter what operating system I used. Much to the surprise of the manager that was looking over my shoulder while we worked on a document together. She kept touching the screen to point out something while I was typing, and I kept having to undo all my letters being scattered at random spots in the document. | 05:22 |
| systemdlete | it has a touch pad and the screen is a touch screen | 05:23 |
| systemdlete | this is state-of-the-art junk from China here! | 05:23 |
| onefang | lol | 05:23 |
| systemdlete | most of it seems to work | 05:23 |
| systemdlete | $300 + $60 spills and chills + $40 tax | 05:24 |
| systemdlete | about $400 in the hole with this | 05:24 |
| gnarface | did you install lm-sensors ? | 05:24 |
| furrywolf | one of my toughbooks has a touchscreen... I never use it. | 05:24 |
| systemdlete | not yet, good idea thanks gnarface | 05:24 |
| systemdlete | furrywolf is that because YOU are so tough? Afraid you'd break it? | 05:25 |
| systemdlete | heheheh | 05:25 |
| systemdlete | (I picture large, strong hands and fingers on the 'wolf) | 05:25 |
| furrywolf | heh. I have personally jumped on top of a toughbook without damaging it. :) | 05:25 |
| furrywolf | I just don't see the point to waving my whole arm around awkwardly to do simple things. | 05:25 |
| systemdlete | I think cheap junk from china deserves that | 05:25 |
| systemdlete | I've rebooted about 3x now and it comes up faithfully. Unfortunately, the greeter (dm) is sideways, but the desktop is landscape | 05:28 |
| onefang | So just login before you get out of bed, problem solved. B-) | 05:29 |
| systemdlete | it's surprisingly quick rebooting | 05:30 |
| systemdlete | onefang: LOL | 05:33 |
| systemdlete | keep it bedside huh? | 05:33 |
| systemdlete | double tap works with the synaptics driver | 05:33 |
| gnarface | cool | 05:39 |
| systemdlete | gnarface: poor touch screen support so far | 06:00 |
| systemdlete | I'll hack at this later... I've been sitting here for hours and haven't moved | 06:02 |
| systemdlete | bbl | 06:02 |
| systemdlete | (and thanks for everyone's help or hilarity, as they both made it easier and fun) | 06:02 |
| furrywolf | I wish I could go to bed. | 06:03 |
| furrywolf | I'm not allowed to sleep until my pot grower neighbors pass out drunk and thus stop making loud noises. | 06:03 |
| systemdlete | anyone know why apt autoremove wants to remove something like 200 packages all of a sudden? The list keeps getting longer every time, and includes packages like wicd and openoffice which I need! | 11:01 |
| onefang | Where they manually selected, or did they get included as suggestions / recommendations? | 11:03 |
| systemdlete | they were automatically included, but I need them! | 11:03 |
| systemdlete | (well, most of them anyway) | 11:03 |
| onefang | Manually select the top level ones you need. | 11:03 |
| systemdlete | How do I "select" them? I'm not too ept on apt | 11:04 |
| onefang | Usually I do that with synaptic. | 11:04 |
| systemdlete | that's what I figured, but was not sure. thanks | 11:05 |
| onefang | Where you highlight the package, go to the Package menu, turn off Automatically installed. | 11:06 |
| systemdlete | actually, I selected the defaults in the install -- I didn't touch anything, just agreed to the suggested configuration of packages and hit continue | 11:06 |
| systemdlete | to my own way of thinking, anything that was selected there should have been considered manually selected. But that's just me. | 11:07 |
| onefang | One last thought before I eat dinner - my guess is that the apt solution is - apt install package. It'll tell you it's already installed, but may mark it as something you actually asked for, rather than something that came along for the ride. | 11:14 |
| systemdlete | Oh, I understand that. What I don't get is why all these packages which were installed as part of my "selections" during the system installation are now considered not manually selected. | 11:16 |
| systemdlete | tbh, I have never fully understood the deb/apt philosophy. Redhat's RPM solution, along with yum, just seem much clearer (though it has its weirdness too, admittedly) | 11:17 |
| systemdlete | thanks again, enjoy dinner | 11:22 |
| xrogaan | systemdlete: aptitude unmarkauto [packages] | 11:54 |
| xrogaan | or apt-mark | 11:54 |
| xrogaan | apt-mark allows you to list manual/auto and mark them as manual or auto | 11:54 |
| systemdlete | ok, thanks. I'll try that | 11:55 |
| xrogaan | you still need to know the name of the packages you want to keep | 11:56 |
| systemdlete | well, for the most part I do | 11:56 |
| systemdlete | I've narrowed down the list significantly so far | 11:56 |
| systemdlete | is this typical after a new install ? | 11:57 |
| systemdlete | I'd think people would have been going nuts by now. | 11:57 |
| xrogaan | I have a file named /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/05disable-suggests that contains `APT::Install-Suggests "0";' | 11:57 |
| systemdlete | how is this normally handled (presumably by people who know debian well)? | 11:57 |
| xrogaan | so that apt doesn't automatically install suggested packages. | 11:57 |
| systemdlete | how do you do that at system install time? | 11:58 |
| onefang | I'm guessing at some point you installed a task-* package (task-desktop?), then removed it. | 11:58 |
| xrogaan | and a `APT::Install-Recommends "false";' too | 11:58 |
| systemdlete | I dont' think so. | 11:58 |
| systemdlete | the only task package I removed is lightdm | 11:59 |
| systemdlete | well, actually, I just removed lightdm | 11:59 |
| systemdlete | not a task | 11:59 |
| xrogaan | check the /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/ directory and see if the recommends and suggests install are turned off | 11:59 |
| spoonovitch | i like to use "apt-mark showauto" and "apt-mark showmanual" to sort this kind of mess | 11:59 |
| systemdlete | I don't mind the suggests and recommends. | 11:59 |
| systemdlete | In fact, I find it useful. The point is just that I figure any packages selected (even by default) at system install time would be marked as manual. | 12:00 |
| systemdlete | no? | 12:00 |
| hightower3 | systemdlete, if you want to reduce the amount of installed packages, install and run 'debfoster' | 12:00 |
| systemdlete | just the opposite -- trying NOT to remove packages! | 12:01 |
| hightower3 | so where's the issue then :) | 12:01 |
| hightower3 | ah you wanted to run 'autoremove' and not remove packages that you use? | 12:01 |
| systemdlete | hightower3: apt autoremove is giving me a long list of packages, many of which are critical (like wicd, without which I cannot operate) | 12:01 |
| systemdlete | right | 12:02 |
| hightower3 | that's a good question... usually when I see it happen, I just manually do apt install <name> for a couple of largest/biggest packages, who then in turn keep installed everything else. | 12:02 |
| hightower3 | Or... | 12:02 |
| hightower3 | I never tried it, but I guess that when you installed packages during install, you selected "tasks" (packages which depend on other packages) | 12:03 |
| hightower3 | if for some reason your selections weren't marked as manual, | 12:03 |
| hightower3 | just do apt install <task name> | 12:03 |
| hightower3 | like someone above mentioned | 12:03 |
| systemdlete | Actually, I didn't really "select" ANYTHING -- I just took the suggested configuration as it was, making no adjustments. | 12:03 |
| xrogaan | you can force the recommends using aptitude: aptitude install -r package | 12:03 |
| hightower3 | yes, well, it installed some "tasks" which in turn depend on all other packages they installed (that's how they got installed in the first place) | 12:04 |
| onefang | The suggested configuration was stuff like - desktop, server, web server, ...? | 12:04 |
| xrogaan | or is it aptitude -r intall? | 12:04 |
| hightower3 | yes, those are tasks | 12:04 |
| hightower3 | tasks packages | 12:04 |
| systemdlete | right. But for an initial install, the system installer should assume I mean make all the installed packages marked manual | 12:04 |
| onefang | The point I was about to make. | 12:05 |
| hightower3 | yes I understand | 12:05 |
| hightower3 | I am simply telling that maybe you don't need to now mark all those packages as manual | 12:05 |
| systemdlete | but, noooo... it does NOT work that way | 12:05 |
| hightower3 | but only the tasks packages | 12:05 |
| systemdlete | ok, will try that | 12:05 |
| hightower3 | I don't remember offhand how they're called, someone above hinted at the name | 12:05 |
| systemdlete | (which should have been done FOR ME when I did the system install... sheesh) | 12:06 |
| fsmithred | if it's a new install, there shouldn't be anything on the autoremove list | 12:06 |
| fsmithred | unless you removed something | 12:06 |
| systemdlete | fsmithred; YAY! Yes, I agree. | 12:06 |
| systemdlete | So why did autoremoves suddenly appear? | 12:06 |
| xrogaan | btw, is it alright to upgrade from ascii to beowulf? | 12:06 |
| fsmithred | xrogaan, depends on what you've got installed | 12:06 |
| xrogaan | aren't the existing issues with migration or new install? | 12:06 |
| systemdlete | xrogaan: I did that in a VM | 12:06 |
| systemdlete | (but that was months ago) | 12:07 |
| fsmithred | I've upgraded refracta (ascii, xfce, no metapackages) very easily to beowulf | 12:07 |
| xrogaan | fsmithred: is it? Do you have a list of known issue somewhere? Maybe the forum... | 12:07 |
| systemdlete | fsmithred: I have not removed anything so far. | 12:07 |
| fsmithred | there's no list of issues | 12:07 |
| fsmithred | there are a few discussions about upgrades to beowulf on the forum, some are old and obsolete. | 12:08 |
| xrogaan | I believe I have some meta packages, how do we list them? | 12:08 |
| fsmithred | I don't know a way to show just the metapackages | 12:08 |
| fsmithred | possibly: dpkg -l |grep metapackage | 12:09 |
| xrogaan | it's the task- things right? | 12:09 |
| onefang | The sudden list af autoremove is due to you removing ... something ... that removed the package/s that suggested or recommended the things you wanted to keep. | 12:09 |
| fsmithred | yeah, that will find the worst ones | 12:09 |
| onefang | You said you removed lightdm. | 12:09 |
| fsmithred | but most of the desktops have their own metapackages | 12:09 |
| fsmithred | task-*-desktop all depend on some display manager | 12:10 |
| fsmithred | if you try to remove the dm, it breaks the task package and wants to remove the whole desktop | 12:10 |
| xrogaan | I don't believe I have task-xfce-desktop, just task-desktop | 12:11 |
| fsmithred | not sure, but maybe 'apt install lightdm && apt remove lightdm' would fix it | 12:11 |
| xrogaan | because I use lightdm with xfce. | 12:11 |
| hightower3 | ah yes | 12:11 |
| hightower3 | he might have uninstalled some package | 12:11 |
| hightower3 | this also uninstalled task | 12:11 |
| hightower3 | then all other packages remained with no dependant on them | 12:11 |
| * xrogaan is going to grab an iso just in case | 12:12 | |
| fsmithred | systemdlete, without the task packages, the installer would need over 1000 checkboxes | 12:12 |
| fsmithred | if you're coming from suse or redhat, you might expect the installer to look and work more like synaptic | 12:13 |
| fsmithred | but it's not. | 12:14 |
| onefang | Even synaptic can turn off suggests and recommends auto inclusion. | 12:14 |
| onefang | That's the way i run it. B-) | 12:15 |
| systemdlete | fsmithred: It should be easy for the installer to mark all the dependent packages of the task packages as manual | 12:15 |
| systemdlete | it's an automation step, that's all | 12:16 |
| fsmithred | I guess someone decided they shouldn't do that, and there's a way to do it afterward if you need it. | 12:16 |
| fsmithred | Most people who want a more customized installation un-check everything (or almost everything) at the tasksel screen. | 12:17 |
| systemdlete | as far as the dm, I am only removed lightdm, which I had installed and decided I didn't want | 12:17 |
| fsmithred | Then add what you want after reboot. | 12:17 |
| fsmithred | that's all it takes | 12:17 |
| fsmithred | the task- package requires lightdm. Without it, you can't have the task- package. | 12:18 |
| fsmithred | ...unless you mark it as manually installed first | 12:18 |
| systemdlete | ok, so that's how MOST people do it. You see, I had gotten bitten at that step a whiles back when installing to a different system (I think it was my testbox) and wanted to avoid the trouble. (I forget what it was that went wrong, but I think it stalled the whole process of system installation) | 12:18 |
| systemdlete | So I decided to just accept the whole slew as is. | 12:19 |
| fsmithred | so try manually installing and uninstalling it. | 12:20 |
| systemdlete | so I just re-installed lightdm | 12:20 |
| fsmithred | which desktop do you have? | 12:21 |
| systemdlete | (I thought the system came with another dm besides lightdm) | 12:21 |
| systemdlete | xfce4 | 12:21 |
| systemdlete | and the others | 12:21 |
| systemdlete | mate, cinnamon, etc | 12:21 |
| fsmithred | slim is default for xfce | 12:21 |
| fsmithred | this is ascii or beowulf? | 12:21 |
| systemdlete | ascii | 12:21 |
| fsmithred | xfce was not the first one? | 12:22 |
| systemdlete | I just barely got ascii installed on this laptop | 12:22 |
| systemdlete | yes, it was, and it was the "default" | 12:22 |
| fsmithred | so slim must have been replaced when you added another (cinnamon?) | 12:22 |
| systemdlete | no, I manually installed lightdm myself actually | 12:23 |
| fsmithred | oh, so then that shouldn't be the cause of all the autoremoves | 12:23 |
| systemdlete | exactly. | 12:23 |
| fsmithred | and btw, you may run into other conflicts because the different desktops use different policykit libs. | 12:24 |
| systemdlete | I think xrogaan's explanation pretty much clears it up | 12:24 |
| systemdlete | IIRC, fsmithred, the problem was that when I tried to choose just, say, xfce or maybe a few others as well, the installer croaked | 12:25 |
| systemdlete | or got very angry at me | 12:25 |
| systemdlete | I got caught in a loop where I pretty much had to accept ALL the packages, as is. I think it did let me drop ssh or something | 12:25 |
| fsmithred | you chose multiple desktops during the instal? | 12:26 |
| systemdlete | but it was very strict | 12:26 |
| systemdlete | multiple but not all, and again, this was months ago for a different install. | 12:26 |
| fsmithred | well, let's stick to talking about this install | 12:26 |
| systemdlete | ok, but my point is that I wanted to avoid all the fuss. So I just took the defaults, which gave me a gob of software and a lot of desktops | 12:27 |
| systemdlete | which is fine. I have plenty of disk space for them | 12:27 |
| fsmithred | used to be that you could install all the desktops you want. That's not the case in devuan. | 12:27 |
| systemdlete | "used to be?" Like back in potato days? | 12:28 |
| fsmithred | no, like up until jessie | 12:29 |
| systemdlete | ah, I see. | 12:29 |
| fsmithred | not sure, but maybe you still can do it in debian | 12:29 |
| systemdlete | well anyway, I am manually reinstalling what I want in the autoremove list | 12:30 |
| fsmithred | see the section on session management and policykit backends: https://files.devuan.org/devuan_ascii/Release_notes.txt | 12:30 |
| systemdlete | but there are a lot of libraries also | 12:30 |
| systemdlete | (ok, will do, thanks) | 12:30 |
| fsmithred | the libraries should come in automatically if you install anything that uses them | 12:30 |
| systemdlete | should... ok | 12:30 |
| systemdlete | sounds good to me | 12:30 |
| systemdlete | push comes to shove, I can just reinstall the laptop from scratch, take the 1st attempt as a trial run | 12:31 |
| systemdlete | It was a pain due to the hw issues with the eMMC (a known issue per numerous internet posts) | 12:31 |
| systemdlete | it's very intermittent | 12:32 |
| fsmithred | oh, I hate intermittent problems | 12:32 |
| systemdlete | me too | 12:32 |
| systemdlete | there ought to be a law. Bugs should be well-behaved. None of these "heisenbugs" where the bug disappears when you go looking for it in a debugger. | 12:32 |
| systemdlete | If your gonna write vexing bugs, at least be respectful to the people who have to de-bug them! | 12:33 |
| systemdlete | we need some order in disorder, really. | 12:34 |
| fsmithred | I agree | 12:37 |
| systemdlete | ok, I cleared all that out. What I did is copy-pasted the list into a vi buffer in bash and arranged to apt install all of them. | 12:43 |
| systemdlete | so now I don't get any more lip from apt | 12:44 |
| systemdlete | I've never used xfinitywifi on a tablet before (I've used it on my android phone though) | 12:45 |
| systemdlete | it works OK, after I figured out which mode to use to connect. But I have to log in to their network every single time I start a session. | 12:46 |
| systemdlete | this is bothersome. A security step I suppose, but still pretty annoying. | 12:46 |
| systemdlete | there is no Internet service until I pull up a browser and log in --> the browser prompts me to do that. | 12:47 |
| fsmithred | does your xfinity keep track of when you open doors in your home? | 12:47 |
| systemdlete | I don't have xfinity home. In fact, I don't even have their gateway. I am using a surfboard modem. | 12:48 |
| systemdlete | I own it. | 12:48 |
| fsmithred | I'm confused. Where does xfinity come into it? | 12:48 |
| systemdlete | I save $10 a month on comcast's already overpriced 60mbps service by not renting their gateway. | 12:49 |
| fsmithred | oh, spectrum only charges $5/month to rent a router | 12:49 |
| systemdlete | I subscribe to xfinity's HSI service; xfinitywifi hotspots are free with the subscription. | 12:49 |
| fsmithred | ok, we're drifting OT | 12:49 |
| systemdlete | anyway... | 12:49 |
| fsmithred | ah, ok | 12:49 |
| systemdlete | so why not take advantage of it. I just didn't realize it would be a pain. | 12:50 |
| systemdlete | I guess I could use my phone as a hotspot and connect to that instead. The phone is already all set for xfinititywifi hotspots | 12:50 |
| systemdlete | I always take my phone with me. | 12:51 |
| systemdlete | OT, indeed. sorry. | 12:51 |
| systemdlete | well, off to test cinnamon -- supposedly it supports touch screen. We'll see. | 12:51 |
| james1138 | Question about Devuan. I see "Epiphany-browser" installed. When I try to remove/purge - it automatically wants to install Firefox-ESR. Is there anyway to dump Epiphany?? | 16:23 |
| Death_Syn | sounds like a metapackage is requiring something that provides a web browser | 16:33 |
| james1138 | Never mind. I think I did it via terminal - thanx anyway. | 16:35 |
| fsmithred | g4570n, do I know you? Your name looks familar. | 16:50 |
| g4570n | fsmithred: I do not think so, I participate here, in the list and I participated in some corrections in the translation of the documentation in Spanish of devuan | 17:01 |
| fsmithred | ok, thanks. I'm probably thinking of a similar name I saw. | 17:02 |
| fsmithred | you're not aitor, right? | 17:03 |
| onefang | All 4570's look the same to me. | 17:03 |
| g4570n | fsmithred: no, I'm not aitor 😆 He used to come to # Devuan-MX too, and I haven't seen him participate in the mailing list for a while. | 17:07 |
| g4570n | I know I was focused on the development of simple-netaid | 17:09 |
| g4570n | I know he was focused on the development of simple-netaid* sorry my \bad english | 17:11 |
| fsmithred | his website is down and he hasn't posted on dng for a few weeks | 17:17 |
| fsmithred | and his email is gnuinos.org, so that doesn't work, either. | 17:17 |
| g4570n | it may be that he is away from home for summer vacations | 17:21 |
| james1138 | Hello from Indiana/USA. General question about Devuan and mail clients. Besides Evolution, Claws Mail and Thunderbird - are there any other email clients that have calendar and RSS feed support?? | 17:48 |
| sixwheeledbeast | Is there a reason to bundle three features into one program? | 17:50 |
| Wonka | well, receiving invitations to appointments by mail and adding those to the calendar from the mail client can be seen as useful | 17:54 |
| Wonka | haven't used RSS feeds much, yet | 17:55 |
| sixwheeledbeast | Do one thing and do it well? | 18:01 |
| james1138 | Sorry for the delay. Evolution does it ok. But since the upgrade of Evolution mail client - the RSS plugin crashes when I do a "global send & receive". If I update email accounts by themselves - no problem. If I update individual RSS feeds no problem.. If I up | 18:09 |
| james1138 | Google search says it is a bug - so I was looking for alternatives to Evolution. | 18:10 |
| _abc_ | Erm there's a nasty exim exploit out, gives remote root. Patch or disable exim asap. | 18:16 |
| hightower3 | lol exim again | 18:16 |
| _abc_ | https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/09/06/exim_vulnerability_patch/ | 18:16 |
| james1138 | _abc: will update/upgrade exim help? | 18:17 |
| _abc_ | It really tries hard to catch up with Outlook servers in features. It's a very nice email server but I'd like to see it simple not complex. | 18:17 |
| hightower3 | hm hm, more problems on ppc64le with policykit. Now doesn't want to install xfce4 due to libpolkit-gobject-1-0 | 18:18 |
| _abc_ | james1138: I don't know. The devuan archives may not have the patched package yet. | 18:18 |
| _abc_ | james1138: check you have exim version 4.92.2 or later, then you are safe. | 18:18 |
| james1138 | I just looked - 4.92.8 - I should be okay | 18:19 |
| sixwheeledbeast | I use Liferea for RSS myself. | 18:20 |
| hightower3 | what's a good alternative for a mail server that's not exim nor postfix? | 18:20 |
| furrywolf | sendmail. :) | 18:22 |
| unixman_home | +1 | 18:23 |
| james1138 | sixwheeledbeast... thanx for the tip. If I must - I sooner just go to Thunderbird and install Lighting and RSS plugins instead of completely to separate apps. | 18:23 |
| sixwheeledbeast | I still prefer the do one thing well approach to programs but ok | 18:24 |
| hightower3 | looks like there is courier | 18:24 |
| james1138 | To my thinking... fewer separate apps mean fewer total dependencies - equals less complexity and fewer demands on system hardware. | 18:26 |
| sixwheeledbeast | It's not that simple tho, would vary depending on which you use. | 18:34 |
| * _abc_ would have voted for postfix but it has been like 17 years since I last touched that. | 18:36 | |
| james1138 | I looked at Claws Mail - OMG! All the extras that a person need install just to come close to Thunderbird or Evolution - even before considering calendar and RSS support!! | 18:36 |
| _abc_ | james1138: does it have massage support? If no, meh. | 18:36 |
| james1138 | "massage support" - where is that app?! Sold! <grin> | 18:37 |
| _abc_ | Boobies on the box are good for sales. Every high performance gear maker knows this. | 18:38 |
| golinux | Ahem . . . please stay on topic | 18:38 |
| james1138 | sorry | 18:39 |
| fsmithred | I don't think that comment was meant for you, james1138 | 18:46 |
| onefang | On my Devuan server I use Courier, coz it does cover all of the email server types. On my Devuan desktop I use Claws-Mail, but some day I'll test out the text console based email clients and switch to one. I have already switched RSS from Claws-Mail to Liferea | 19:09 |
| enyc | onefang: i have an ongoing old courier arrangement! | 19:13 |
| enyc | onefang: I think there are some snags that need fixing in debian courier package, default key sizes oforl ssl or other such annoying niggles | 19:13 |
| enyc | onefang: but, it largely behaves! | 19:14 |
| enyc | onefang: some like 'mutt' with lots of customization | 19:14 |
| onefang | I've been using it since before I switched to Devuan. | 19:14 |
| enyc | onefang: with the 'maildir patch', re-alpine can be useful, in that it can directly read the courier Maildir , without needing the imapd overhead or re-entering password. | 19:15 |
| onefang | Mutt is on my list to check out. I just have to either get the time to get around to it, or get more annoyed at Claw--Mail. lol | 19:15 |
| onefang | So is re-alpine. | 19:16 |
| onefang | But for now, it's 3AM. I should sleep. | 19:16 |
| enyc | onefang: i may tnot be abroun much/ocnsistently but happy to compare notes on alpine config | 19:16 |
| fsmithred | is alpine a descendant of pine? | 19:17 |
| enyc | fsmithred: yes, changed to apache-license | 19:17 |
| onefang | I think it's pine -> alpine -> re-alpine. | 19:17 |
| fsmithred | makes sense | 19:17 |
| * onefang heads to bed. | 19:18 | |
| enyc | fsmithred: unfortunately, lots of useful alpine patches, provided by Eduardo Chappa , hasn't/won't/etc release under apache license, and so aren't in debian package | 19:18 |
| fsmithred | too bad | 19:19 |
| _abc_ | alpine is/was under some University license, no? | 19:22 |
| _abc_ | alpine is the descendent of pine, a rewrite by the same people iirc. re-alpine may not be | 19:22 |
| _abc_ | I used pine for email client for about 10 years 1990s-200s | 19:23 |
| _abc_ | *2000s | 19:23 |
| _abc_ | pine is probably a great example for why one should not use an ascii menu program for complex things. At the end the config screens were interminable and the probability to get everything right tended towards zero. | 19:24 |
| _abc_ | I did not get to use re-alipine | 19:25 |
| enyc | _abc_: pine was uni license whatnot, alpine is when it became apache-license | 19:25 |
| enyc | transpires, re-alpine died, and debian package follows alpine ;p | 19:25 |
| _abc_ | uwa.edu for pine and alpine, then forked on sourceforge in 2009 as re-alpine | 19:26 |
| enyc | http://alpine.x10host.com/alpine/ as the patches e.g. bmaildir, that work ontop of debian package, have rebuilt with maildir for example. | 19:26 |
| _abc_ | http://alpine.x10host.com/alpine/ does not contain the word 'license' | 19:27 |
| _abc_ | brb | 19:29 |
| _abc_ | re | 20:08 |
| MinceR | inb4 someone forks re-alpine and calls it unre-alpine | 20:09 |
| _abc_ | At this point the best way to improve re(n)-alpine in my opinion is to simply rewrite it from scratch in the spirit of old old alpine, which was simple and easy to set up and hda a small options screen (relatively speaking) | 20:11 |
| _abc_ | Perhaps someone nostalgic for the old times will do it. | 20:12 |
| _abc_ | I never understood why these programs were ever ported to windows. Who would use alpine on windows? | 20:13 |
| _abc_ | And I confused uw.edu with uwa.edu. Old pine was created at uw.edu and had a suitable license from them. I believe they used it on their own campus etc. | 20:14 |
| _abc_ | It's still alive just hard to find, the original project: https://www.washington.edu/imap/ | 20:18 |
| golinux | _abc_: #debianfork is for non-Devuan support related chat. ;) | 20:25 |
| _abc_ | well said golinux | 21:24 |
| james1138 | General Devuan question. Any suggestions for a "startup disk creator" for USB?? I do not see UNetbootin or anything like that in the repos so far. | 22:42 |
| gnarface | james1138: you don't need unetbootin anymore. most machines made after about 2006 should be capable of booting a USB key as a regular harddrive, so you can literally just install to USB now with the normal installer and then boot from it | 22:47 |
| james1138 | Sorry gnarface: I meant make my own USB boot from ISO. | 22:47 |
| gnarface | there are devuan live images available too though if you want something a little more static | 22:48 |
| gnarface | i'm not sure what you mean by making USB boot from ISO... you can do that with something like the grub boot iso and chainload to USB , but like i said it should not be necessary anymore | 22:48 |
| gnarface | the existing devuan iso images are all iso-hybrid, which means they'll work on optical or USB | 22:49 |
| gnarface | (or anything really - but remember, BIOS support required) | 22:49 |
| james1138 | Humm I thought to copy a ISO to usb to make it into a boot disk required something like unetbootin | 22:50 |
| gnarface | for the old basic ISOs that was true. someone came up with a new trick | 22:50 |
| gnarface | several years ago now actually i think | 22:51 |
| gnarface | they call it "iso-hybrid" | 22:51 |
| gnarface | but pretty much all linux distros' ISO images default to that setup now | 22:51 |
| gnarface | basically just dd the ISO to a USB key and try it | 22:52 |
| gnarface | it should work | 22:52 |
| gnarface | the newest machine i've got that can't do this is a pentium II | 22:53 |
| gnarface | (its BIOS only supports USB keys formatted as floppy disks) | 22:53 |
| gnarface | unetbootin should ostensibly still work but it hasn't gotten any easier to use or any better supported since it is basically not needed anymore except for really legacy hardware | 22:54 |
| james1138 | Ahh okay... one of the reasons I ask is that when I tried unbootin - it was going to also install syslinux and syslinux-common and I did not know if that was good ot bad. | 22:56 |
| gnarface | you don't need any of that shit now | 22:57 |
| james1138 | ok | 22:57 |
| gnarface | just dd and some patience | 22:57 |
| james1138 | what is "dd" is that a command or an actual application? | 22:59 |
| gnarface | i don't see a meaningful distinction between those two terms but i assume you mean to ask whether it is a graphical application or a console application. it is a console application. | 23:00 |
| gnarface | but it is really easy to use | 23:01 |
| gnarface | dd if=[input file] of=[output file] | 23:01 |
| james1138 | ahh ok | 23:01 |
| gnarface | just be really careful you don't accidentally put the wrong thing for output file | 23:01 |
| gnarface | there is no safety | 23:02 |
| gnarface | it will overwrite anything you point it at without hesitation | 23:02 |
| gnarface | including physical hardware | 23:02 |
| gnarface | so [input file] would be the ISO here, and [output file] would be the /dev/whatever file that represents the physical disk (USB key or harddrive, it doesn't care) you are trying to write to | 23:03 |
| gnarface | and it won't hesitate to overwrite your install if you point it at the wrong disk | 23:03 |
| gnarface | so you know, make sure you double check and don't point it at your face :) | 23:03 |
| james1138 | Playing a "little" safe - found a GUI front-end for DD to help reduce my making MAJOR problems... https://helpdeskgeek.com/linux-tips/use-the-linux-‘dd’-command-with-a-simple-gui/ | 23:08 |
| specing | just read its manpage and you'll be safe | 23:09 |
| james1138 | (y) | 23:09 |
| fsmithred | anything between me and dd sounds scary | 23:12 |
| fsmithred | I want to see it with my own eyes | 23:13 |
| fsmithred | usually after I see the output of dmesg | 23:13 |
| golinux | Even I can dd (with sweaty palms though) | 23:16 |
| james1138 | golinux: I am not as good or as surefooted as you are around stuff like dd.... ;D | 23:17 |
| golinux | Do not make assumptions. ;) | 23:18 |
| fsmithred | LOL! | 23:20 |
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