| NaGERST | Howdy.... how come some packages have 10 year old versions instead of more modern ones? Is it because debian has the old ones? | 00:41 |
|---|---|---|
| NaGERST | AmiWM for example has been at very old versions for a very long time now despite several crucial updates, like fulls screen video rewrite | 00:42 |
| n4dir | if the maintainer doesn't care or doesn't find the time, for example | 00:43 |
| NaGERST | Debian has only updated that repo twice in my twenty years. from 0.0.98 to 0.21 in like 1998... | 00:43 |
| n4dir | sounds a bit sarcastic as an answer, but it is the way it is | 00:44 |
| golinux | If it works don't fix it. "Modern" thinking is a trap and quite unnecessary . . . at least in my world. | 00:44 |
| NaGERST | it is a trivial thing to build myself, as it is very small, but it does hardly attract new users when the only version in the repos is the least good one. and 10 years old at that | 00:44 |
| golinux | We pull unforked packages directly from Debian. File a bug there. | 00:45 |
| n4dir | if enough people would be using it there were (hopefully) bug reporst about it. | 00:45 |
| NaGERST | i think the amiga community nowadays is really small in linux now that we got proper and decent hardware to run amigaos on. | 00:46 |
| NaGERST | but i still like some aspects of linux | 00:46 |
| golinux | Does no good to complain here | 00:46 |
| NaGERST | it was not a complaint , good sir. it'was just'n ask. | 00:47 |
| n4dir | as dumb my answer might sound, it really is the most probable explanation. | 00:47 |
| golinux | And now you have an answer. ;) | 00:47 |
| NaGERST | golinux: and i thank thee | 00:48 |
| golinux | And you are welcome. Questions are a good thing and help to cleear the fog . . . | 00:49 |
| NaGERST | It is a lovely distro that you have here btw, the combo of runit+xfs is incredibly fast. i have very high IOPS and it boots much faster than any systemd or upstart distro i have ever tried (ASUS x570-p, ryzen 58003d) | 00:50 |
| NaGERST | a lot worse when i tried btrfs and ext4, but after reading the phoronix article i understood why. | 00:51 |
| NaGERST | different fs for different usages | 00:51 |
| golinux | :) | 00:53 |
| gnarface | NaGERST: sometimes it's just because the only changes are security or stability fixes, and they just backport the security/stability patches manually without iterating the version. whenever you see an old package like that, it's worth giving it a try to make sure it's actually missing whatever you need. | 02:19 |
| gnarface | but yea, often it's also just because that's the version that was available last time there was a maintainer for it, and if it isn't broken they don't bother removing it | 02:19 |
| gnarface | they don't update anything in their repos unless they've got an active maintainer assigned to it | 02:20 |
| FatPhil | "they" = debian? | 06:57 |
| FatPhil | Because even the "active" maintainers quite often aren't active in any meaningful sense. | 06:58 |
| gnarface | yes, by "they" in that context i meant debian | 07:00 |
| FatPhil | I used to work with a whole bunch of debian devs, one was even lead dev for ARM. I once pissed off a package maintainer by getting an NMU via one of my workmates. They got into an argument about how "active" he really was! | 07:01 |
| FatPhil | That particular workmate, being a Finn, was about as subtle as a Linus Torvalds in his argumentation style! | 07:03 |
| stefan_ | hello, how can I do virtualization on devuan? it seems that qemu won't work iwthout systemd | 20:46 |
| gnarface | stefan_: that's false. who told you this? | 20:47 |
| gnarface | there's a number of virtualization options on devuan, including qemu... which is strongly favored | 20:47 |
| gnarface | whoever told you this is a liar and a shill | 20:48 |
| gnarface | did you try it and run into problems, or did someone from debian just say this to you? | 20:50 |
| stefan_ | I tried and ran into problems, but maybe it's the cpu, I'll check on another system and see if it works | 20:52 |
| gnarface | your install is only using packages from the devuan repos, right? or did you mix in parts from other distros? | 20:52 |
| stefan_ | only devuan | 20:52 |
| gnarface | not even stuff like deb-multimedia? | 20:53 |
| gnarface | any 3rd party repos might sneak in a systemd dependency | 20:53 |
| gnarface | if you show me your qemu command-line maybe i can try to sanity check it for you | 20:53 |
| gnarface | all i can tell you for sure is it's working here | 20:54 |
| gnarface | also, which devuan release are you using? | 20:54 |
| brocashelm | did you install devuan or did you migrate your repos from debian? | 20:54 |
| gnarface | also keep in mind that permissions filesystem matter in devuan in a way they don't on a systemd distro | 20:55 |
| brocashelm | hence configs may vary between the two | 20:55 |
| stefan_ | I did a clean install on a thin client (hp t620) with latest devuan, but maybe it's the thin client not supporting virtualization | 20:55 |
| gnarface | qemu should still function without hardware virtualization, it'd just be slower | 20:56 |
| brocashelm | nothing in your bios to check for virtualization support? | 20:56 |
| gnarface | but also double check that it's not just disabled in your bios (i don't actually know off the top of my head if that machine is supposed to support hardware virtualization or not) | 20:56 |
| stefan_ | if I do grep -E --color '(vmx|svm)' /proc/cpuinfo | 20:57 |
| stefan_ | I see that there is "svm" | 20:57 |
| stefan_ | I enabled it in bios | 20:57 |
| stefan_ | root@edge:~# virt-install --virt-type kvm --name mailcow --ram 2048 --vcpus 2 --os-variant debian9 --cdrom /root/debian-11.7.0-amd64-netinst.iso --network network=default,model=virtio --graphics none --disk path=/mnt/luks_usb/mailcow.qcow2,format=qcow2 | 20:57 |
| stefan_ | ERROR Host does not support domain type kvm for virtualization type 'hvm' with architecture 'x86_64 | 20:57 |
| brocashelm | and, that's just with qemu? have you tested other vm software like virtualbox or kvm? | 20:58 |
| gnarface | hmmm | 20:58 |
| gnarface | yea, i would start by making a bare image with qemu-img then try starting qemu without all the virt-manager stuff | 20:59 |
| gnarface | debug the qemu first, since the virt-* stuff adds extra bugs | 20:59 |
| brocashelm | seems this is a common concern. a search for "hp t620 virtualization" led to a reddit post complaining about it being buggy and slow | 20:59 |
| gnarface | interesting. i wonder if there's a bios patch available to fix it | 21:00 |
| gnarface | stefan_: got the latest bios from them? | 21:00 |
| stefan_ | i think the bios had never been updated | 21:00 |
| brocashelm | https://old.reddit.com/r/homelab/comments/11bxgl6/hp_t620_thin_client_and_virtualisation/ | 21:00 |
| gnarface | seems like there's known issues with that hardware but in a case like this it's a good idea to see if they ever released a fix | 21:01 |
| gnarface | however, that said, i can't be sure that's the problem you're actually hitting | 21:01 |
| gnarface | it might still just be a avoidable configuration error | 21:01 |
| gnarface | oh! i just remembered one other thing, some AMD motherboards need a kernel command-line parameter to dodge a separate kvm bug | 21:02 |
| gnarface | something like this, to override inaccurate defaults: ivrs_ioapic[9]=00:14.0 ivrs_ioapic[10]=00:00.2 | 21:03 |
| gnarface | (you'll have to find the proper numbers to fill in for your board) | 21:03 |
| stefan_ | btw, i'm trying to install a vm because I couldn't get docker to work but I wouldn't need the vm otherwise | 21:03 |
| stefan_ | the idea was to use docker on debian | 21:04 |
| stefan_ | but for the firewall I want devuan as I don't trust systemd | 21:04 |
| gnarface | for docker issues, read this: https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=5044 (i think) | 21:05 |
| gnarface | yea, for docker read that | 21:05 |
| gnarface | but qemu does also absolutely work | 21:05 |
| stefan_ | I'd pay if someone be willing to ssh into my box and get mailcow-dockerized to work | 21:06 |
| gnarface | (i know that's a weird domain name but rest assured, that's actually the official devuan forum) | 21:07 |
| gnarface | i think you can do this, i believe in you | 21:07 |
| stefan_ | is there docker-compose v2 for devuan? | 21:10 |
| stefan_ | I get 1.25 running apt install | 21:10 |
| gnarface | read that forum thread, you need to use the unofficial docker build linked from there | 21:10 |
| gnarface | it's 4 posts, it's not a long read i promise | 21:12 |
| stefan_ | managed to get docker compose working by installing the standalone version without apt :) | 21:18 |
| gnarface | congrats | 21:21 |
| stefan_ | btw managed to get the vm running using only qemu, no virt manager | 21:25 |
| gnarface | yea, i have that problem with virt manager a lot too. it's just very complicated but also not very well done, so you need to spend extra time debugging it separately, and by the time you've done that a few times you really don't need it anymore because you've also figured out how to use qemu without it (as a necessary part of trying to figure out what virt-manager is doing wrong in the first place, which is usually it's | 21:26 |
| gnarface | one sole duty; getting the command-line right without you having to figure it out) | 21:26 |
| gnarface | you could still be seeing a performance hit though if kvm isn't set up in the bios right, and i'm not sure it'd do more at launch about it than just issue a small 1-line warning | 21:27 |
| gnarface | if you find that happening, look up instructions on how to populate those ivrs_ioapic kernel command-line parameters | 21:28 |
| stefan_ | thanks I'll look into it | 21:29 |
| stefan_ | i like this thin client, uses 5W idle nad boasts 16 GB of ram | 21:29 |
| gnarface | heh, doesn't sound very "thin" to me but whatever works | 21:30 |
| stefan_ | comes with 4 GB by default but I upgraded it and will be moving many VMs from proxmox to it | 21:31 |
| stefan_ | has anyone managed to get devuan running on encrypted ZFS mirror? | 22:03 |
| gnarface | someone around here was using zfs, but i dunno about with encryption | 22:05 |
| gnarface | you might need to hang around longer for an answer to that one, this can be a slow channel | 22:05 |
| stefan__ | update, I managed to get virt-manager to work on the hp t620. I installed amd64-microcode using apt, added GRUB_CMDLINE_LINUX_DEFAULT="quiet ivrs_ioapic[9]=00:14.0 ivrs_ioapic[10]=00:00.2 amd_iommu=on kvm_amd.nested=1" | 22:55 |
| stefan__ | and now virt-manager doesn't complain anymore | 22:55 |
| stefan__ | I also updated bios to latest version | 22:55 |
| gnarface | neat! | 22:55 |
| gnarface | congrats again, stefan__ | 22:55 |
| gnarface | i knew you could do it! | 22:56 |
| stefan__ | thank you gnarface for the kernel commands | 22:56 |
| gnarface | no problem | 22:56 |
| stefan__ | do you think it'd be better to run mailcow-dockerized in a vm or directly on devuan? | 22:57 |
| gnarface | i couldn't say, i don't know enough about what mailcow does | 22:57 |
| stefan__ | it's an email server with a nice user interface | 22:58 |
| gnarface | that's all? i assume it's safer to run it in a VM then | 22:58 |
| gnarface | as a general rule that's usually the case | 22:58 |
| gnarface | i run my mail servers in a VM just not this one | 22:59 |
| stefan__ | it's an email server that uses docker and really easy to setup, also integrates nextcloud | 22:59 |
| gnarface | interesting | 22:59 |
| stefan__ | what SW do you use for email server? | 22:59 |
| gnarface | exim4, the distro default | 22:59 |
| gnarface | i know it's not the easiest to set up, but i read books | 23:00 |
| gnarface | (the university that creates exim4 publishes a very good book about it) | 23:00 |
| gnarface | i'm not sure mailcow or docker were even around when i started using it though, so that might have affected my choices | 23:01 |
| gnarface | before that i was using sendmail, and the one thing i can say about exim4 is that at least it's easier to learn than sendmail (though O'Reilly press does publish a very good book about sendmail too) | 23:02 |
| debdog | mailcow moo "There are no Easter Eggs in this program." | 23:02 |
| gnarface | one of the prime benefits of exim4 (and i assume one of the driving factors for its adoption as the debian default upstream, because sendmail was their default before) is that it's a functional drop-in replacement for sendmail, for all sane uses of sendmail, but it's easier to customize | 23:03 |
| stefan__ | since the advent of chatgpt I've stopped reading books ahah | 23:03 |
| gnarface | ... whichi isn't to say that it's very easy to customize, it's just easier than sendmail | 23:04 |
| gnarface | i also use spamassassin, and i would recommend anyone do so | 23:06 |
| stefan__ | gnarface, that's good to know! I've used postfix in the past, but mailcow seems to simplify everything. Plus, it has a nice UI for managing domains, accounts, and such. But I'll definitely check out exim4 for comparison. Thanks for the suggestion! | 23:07 |
| stefan__ | gnarface, that's good to know! I've used postfix in the past, but mailcow seems to simplify everything. Plus, it has a nice UI for managing domains, accounts, and such. But I'll definitely check out exim4 for comparison. Thanks for the suggestion! | 23:07 |
| gnarface | yea, i think postfix also didn't exist yet when i started using exim4 | 23:07 |
| gnarface | though i remember a lot of hype about it when it came out, i just couldn't convince myself to feel comfortable stuffing my mail in a database, as i was also a professional database administrator at the time | 23:08 |
| stefan__ | I remember spending nights configuring postfix and dovecot but eventually the complexity of it made me switch | 23:09 |
| gnarface | dovecot didn't seem to have very good documentation back then | 23:10 |
| gnarface | but i managed to figure out how to tie courier-imaps directly to exim4 without it | 23:10 |
| gnarface | (i couldn't get my head around dovecot either) | 23:10 |
| stefan__ | I always dread of misconfiguring something and then getting hacked. A UI takes the anxiety out. | 23:11 |
| gnarface | it does, but that sense of comfort can be superficial | 23:12 |
| gnarface | linux software is typically by and for the people solving the problem it solves, so often people making GUI front-ends for complex operations are the people who need the most help with said operations | 23:13 |
| gnarface | there's no substitute for a good documentation written by someone who doesn't need help with it | 23:13 |
| gnarface | (though i admit it really expands the setup time) | 23:14 |
| gnarface | as they say; fast, cheap, or good, you can only pick 2 of the 3 (an old engineering adage) | 23:15 |
| stefan__ | I seem to be getting slow, epensive and mediocre picks | 23:17 |
| stefan__ | paying seems to not solve problems anymore as people are unwilling to provide good service | 23:18 |
| stefan__ | may as well diy | 23:18 |
| gnarface | that is exactly what was on my mind when i bought the exim4 book | 23:18 |
| gnarface | "fuck all this, i'll do it myself" | 23:18 |
| gnarface | it did absorb about 3 months of my free time | 23:19 |
| gnarface | i was driven by rage though | 23:20 |
| brocashelm | will the other daedalus repos be available on the day of bookworm's release? | 23:31 |
| gnarface | good question | 23:32 |
| gnarface | i would assume yes, but fsmithred would probably actually know | 23:32 |
| fsmithred | I'm not sure, but I think somebody has to do something for that to happen. | 23:32 |
| gnarface | i think someone did have to do something last time, but i thought that was you | 23:32 |
| gnarface | someone also has to move the stable/testing links too | 23:33 |
| fsmithred | the links for daedalus-security and -updates don't exist yet | 23:34 |
| brocashelm | i mean, you already archived ascii while stretch can still be accessed from the main debian repos | 23:34 |
| brocashelm | so i'm hoping we can get that on bookworm's release day, the daedalus -security, -updates, -proposed-updates, and -backports | 23:34 |
| brocashelm | since IME it's still just behind ceres (i know that's going to change in a few days) | 23:35 |
| AhmedNabil | hi all | 23:35 |
| AhmedNabil | I have problem with install devuan from last dvd iso and netinstall for date ( 8/5/2023 and 15/5/2023 ) | 23:35 |
| AhmedNabil | I can't install it will encryption dist it's say configuration error | 23:35 |
| gnarface | fsmithred: ^ | 23:36 |
| fsmithred | AhmedNabil, how are you doing it? | 23:36 |
| fsmithred | encrypted lvm or just a single encrypted partition | 23:37 |
| fsmithred | and are you using manual or automatic partitioning? | 23:37 |
| AhmedNabil | no i chose 3 one encryption with lvm | 23:38 |
| AhmedNabil | I don't chose manual partition I | 23:38 |
| fsmithred | have you done this before without any problems? | 23:40 |
| AhmedNabil | yes now on debian with disk encryption | 23:41 |
| fsmithred | just checking - I did encrypted lvm install with iso from May 1. | 23:44 |
| fsmithred | what error message do you get, and when do you get it? | 23:45 |
| rrq | (seems there is some new undeclared dependency on libgcc_s.so) | 23:47 |
| fsmithred | that looks familiar. | 23:48 |
| gnarface | oh this just came up recently | 23:48 |
| gnarface | just a couple days ago, someone found a fix though, didn't they? | 23:49 |
| gnarface | the libgcc_s.so thing definitely was in the error then | 23:49 |
| fsmithred | my logs show it came up on March 7 and May 3. | 23:51 |
| fsmithred | I did an encrypted lvm install on May 11 | 23:51 |
| fsmithred | not sure how | 23:51 |
| AhmedNabil | Im flashing iso now from 8/5/2023 | 23:52 |
| AhmedNabil | i will send photo for error using my google photo share link | 23:53 |
| gnarface | https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/initramfs-tools/+bug/1958594 | 23:54 |
| gnarface | https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=950254 | 23:54 |
| gnarface | are these related? | 23:54 |
| gnarface | they seem kinda long ago | 23:54 |
| gnarface | but maybe this is a reoccurring issue | 23:54 |
| fsmithred | Mar 7 references ceres | 23:55 |
| fsmithred | AhmedNabil, are you installing without a network mirror? | 23:56 |
| fsmithred | or without a network connection | 23:56 |
| AhmedNabil | Im using big install iso desktop iso 4 gb size | 23:57 |
| AhmedNabil | Give me five minutes i will share photo fir error with you | 23:58 |
| fsmithred | hang on, I'll paste it here first | 23:58 |
| fsmithred | "partman-crypto: libgcc_s.so.1 must be installed for pthread_exit to work" | 23:59 |
| fsmithred | ^^^ is that it? | 23:59 |
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