| pablocastellanos | Hi, in debian, with the pci-e nvidia gpu is possible to use the nouveau driver, I have video output from the motherboard DP port, but in Devuan with a fresh install only black screen. | 00:13 |
|---|---|---|
| pablocastellanos | What can I configure to replicate the Debian configuration? | 00:13 |
| brocashelm | i can't really help in regards to nvidia/nouveau, but the arch wiki has some pointers on how/where to configure the drivers (you generally do it in /etc/X11/xorg.conf.d): https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/nouveau | 00:16 |
| brocashelm | as it shows, try this with the file /etc/X11/xorg.conf.d/20-nouveau.conf: | 00:17 |
| brocashelm | Section "Monitor" | 00:17 |
| brocashelm | Identifier "DP-1" | 00:18 |
| brocashelm | Option "Ignore" "1" | 00:18 |
| brocashelm | EndSection | 00:18 |
| brocashelm | or maybe make it VGA-1 instead of DP-1 | 00:19 |
| brocashelm | does your mobo have a vga port still? | 00:19 |
| brocashelm | https://wiki.debian.org/NvidiaGraphicsDrivers#Configuration | 00:24 |
| brocashelm | here's debian's version of configuring it. should apply to devuan about the same if it worked on debian | 00:24 |
| pablomobile | brocashelm: Nope, only two DP, and the pci-e board four mini-DP (I don't have any mini-DP adapter, because of this I'm using the mobo DP port) | 00:24 |
| pablomobile | brocashelm: What amazes me is that in debian I didn't to anything and the mobo DP port works without configuration (is debian testing) | 00:25 |
| brocashelm | which devuan are you using? chimaera (about to go oldstable) or daedalus (bookworm)? | 00:26 |
| pablomobile | brocashelm: Chimaera | 00:26 |
| brocashelm | so you're connecting using the motherboard's dp instead of the gpu's? i would probably use the gpu for the output for best results | 00:26 |
| brocashelm | maybe somewhere in your bios there is a way to configure display output rules | 00:26 |
| brocashelm | i think the magic is in the conf files | 00:27 |
| pablomobile | brocashelm: As I already said, booting in debian testing, no problem, boot in chimaera, fresh install, black screen. | 00:27 |
| pablomobile | brocashelm: nouveau in debian, nouveau in devuan. | 00:27 |
| _ds_ | Hmm. What CPU/APU? (I'd expect the mb's monitor outputs to work only with integrated graphics.) | 00:27 |
| brocashelm | pablomobile: maybe refer to the debian confs for nouveau/nvidia and see if there are any slight differences. xorg can be tricky to set up, especially due to nvidia not being as compatible as amd or intel IME | 00:28 |
| brocashelm | or you could also try moving to daedalus (bookworm will be released in a few days) | 00:28 |
| brocashelm | sorry i can't be more help, but good luck | 00:28 |
| pablomobile | brocashelm: Is a live-CD, autogenerated conf files, if any | 00:29 |
| pablomobile | _ds_: Intel: Intel Corporation CometLake-S GT2 [UHD Graphics 630] | 00:30 |
| pablomobile | _ds_: NVidia: NVIDIA Corporation GP107GL [Quadro P1000] | 00:31 |
| pablomobile | brocashelm: _ds_: The Debian Live-CD is using kernel 5.18.5-1, I'm gonna try a kernel from backports | 00:36 |
| bgstack15 | I'm investigating using tumblerd for thumbnailing with libgtk-3-0 from the gtk3classic project. It appears that tumblerd is a dbus service thingy designed to be run in the user context. Do I just set my ~/.fluxbox/startup to run "tumblerd &" and then thumbnails "just work"? | 00:47 |
| bgstack15 | Ah, yes, I need something to actually send the instruction to dbus tumblerd service to actually process the images and generate thumbnails, which cannot be done by the file dialog in gtk3classic. Got it. | 00:49 |
| Xenguy | bgstack15, tumbler - D-Bus thumbnailing service | 00:51 |
| Xenguy | Sounds like esoteric stuff | 00:51 |
| Xenguy | This might be one of those problems where you know more than everyone else in the channel : -) | 00:52 |
| bgstack15 | Do you have any recommendations for something that generates thumbnails suitable for gtk3classic file dialogs? | 00:52 |
| Xenguy | None whatsoever, but let the channel answer, if it can | 00:52 |
| rrq | bgstack15: convert (from imagemagick) ? | 01:07 |
| gnarface | pablomobile: debian testing corresponds to daedalus | 01:20 |
| gnarface | though, a chimaera-backports kernel might still work | 01:20 |
| gnarface | and don't forget that you have to add yourself to the "video" group | 01:20 |
| gnarface | all the rest of the configs should be the same as debian | 01:23 |
| darwin | using aptitude I see several zfs packages but no zfs package itself... how do I get that? | 01:57 |
| gnarface | darwin: shouldn't be different from debian. i think it's patent encumbered still, so you need to make a custom kernel build with 3rd party patches that aren't GPL2 compatible. | 01:59 |
| gnarface | i haven't done it though, stick around and someone else who has might be able to help with specifics | 02:00 |
| gnarface | i found these two links for you that might be relevant: https://wiki.debian.org/ZFS https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=3794 | 02:02 |
| darwin | i don't know about Debian newer than 20+ years ago | 02:09 |
| darwin | but I'll read the links | 02:09 |
| darwin | on Slackware GNU/Linux you don't need to build an entire kernel, just the module | 02:09 |
| darwin | thanks; I think the first link should be enough | 02:11 |
| darwin | should I change a line to bullseye-backports or bookworm-backports though? That documentation mentions an older version that would no longer be the case | 02:15 |
| gnarface | darwin: i believe there is a way to just build the module but i thought that method had reduced functionality. i could be wrong, it has been almost 20 years since i looked into actually using zfs | 02:15 |
| darwin | i don't mind building a kernel but it shouldn't be the case just a module is less functional unless they did something wrong | 02:16 |
| gnarface | darwin: and you should use neither bullseye-backports or bookworm-backports, you should use the devuan equivalent | 02:16 |
| darwin | oh... | 02:16 |
| darwin | the documentation says buster-backports but I thought backports are from the testing version which is way past that now | 02:17 |
| gnarface | yea, you'd probably not need either of those now | 02:17 |
| gnarface | but bullseye-backports would actually be chimaera-backports | 02:18 |
| darwin | yeah | 02:18 |
| gnarface | and bookworm-backports would be daedalus-backports but it is probably not actually populated yet | 02:18 |
| darwin | i see | 02:18 |
| darwin | well I'll try it and if it doesn't work I'll use chimaera-backports? | 02:18 |
| gnarface | what devuan release are you actually using currently? is it chimaera? | 02:18 |
| darwin | yes | 02:19 |
| darwin | in a chroot | 02:19 |
| gnarface | i'd say chimaera-backports is a safe bet then | 02:19 |
| darwin | but I might boot to it soon | 02:19 |
| gnarface | don't forget to install grub and a kernel package in the chroot | 02:20 |
| gnarface | it probably won't have gotten those automatically | 02:20 |
| darwin | i have GRUB2 in my main OS thought I prefer LILO (but stopped working on my current hardware after a while) | 02:20 |
| gnarface | oh well i mean any bootloader and any kernel package | 02:20 |
| gnarface | i think it'll get an init system by default | 02:21 |
| darwin | debootstrap that I modified to install Chimaera installed a kernel | 02:21 |
| darwin | or maybe not, but some related stuff | 02:21 |
| gnarface | hmm, interesting... | 02:21 |
| darwin | it just installed headers and other stuff | 02:22 |
| gnarface | look for a package starting with "linux-image-" | 02:22 |
| gnarface | the kernel headers are in linux-headers-* and the kernels themselves are in linux-image-* | 02:22 |
| gnarface | it's possible package you added will pull these in automatically but with a minimal install it's been my experience that nothing does | 02:23 |
| gnarface | and likewise nothing on a minimal install will grab a bootloader for you by default | 02:23 |
| darwin | i'm not sure how to add backports to apt configuration... the Debian documentation seems to be significantly different from how Devuan does it... | 02:31 |
| gnarface | really? you should just add it to the /etc/apt/sources.list then run "apt-get update" | 02:32 |
| gnarface | it shouldn't be different except some field values | 02:32 |
| gnarface | deb http://deb.devuan.org/merged chimaera-backports main contrib non-free | 02:33 |
| gnarface | the line should look like this ^ | 02:33 |
| darwin | thanks. I had but daedalus-backports but that was probably wrong | 02:33 |
| gnarface | then after you run "apt-get update" you just run "apt-get -t chimaera-backports install [something]" | 02:34 |
| gnarface | and afterwards i'd recommend commenting it out and re-running "apt-get update" just to prevent the rare incident of accidentally getting something from backports you didn't want or expecct | 02:34 |
| darwin | yes | 02:34 |
| gnarface | and like i said, daedalus-backports is probably not even populated yet since daedalus is still in testing | 02:35 |
| gnarface | but the chimaera-backports versions should mostly be similar to regular daedalus | 02:35 |
| darwin | this is what apt said: W: Skipping acquire of configured file 'chimaera-backports/binary-amd64/Packages' as repository 'http://deb.devuan.org/merged chimaera InRelease' doesn't have the component 'chimaera-backports' (component misspelt in sources.list?) | 02:35 |
| darwin | i have the line exactly as you said | 02:35 |
| gnarface | hmm | 02:36 |
| gnarface | you debootstrapped chimaera and you're running this chrooted into that install right? | 02:36 |
| darwin | yes | 02:36 |
| gnarface | that's weird | 02:37 |
| gnarface | are you running a caching proxy for apt or anything like that? | 02:37 |
| darwin | i don't know what that is | 02:37 |
| gnarface | ? | 02:37 |
| gnarface | a local mirror? | 02:38 |
| darwin | no | 02:38 |
| gnarface | apt-cacher? | 02:38 |
| gnarface | apt-cacher-ng? | 02:38 |
| gnarface | squid? | 02:38 |
| darwin | i don't know what those are either | 02:38 |
| gnarface | run it again | 02:38 |
| gnarface | make sure it gives the same exact error twice in a row | 02:39 |
| darwin | i ran 'apt update' and got the same error. Actually two lines, the second being similar | 02:39 |
| darwin | second line: W: Skipping acquire of configured file 'chimaera-backports/i18n/Translation-en' as repository 'http://deb.devuan.org/merged chimaera InRelease' doesn't have the component 'chimaera-backports' (component misspelt in sources.list?) | 02:39 |
| darwin | i don't think I have a locale so far | 02:40 |
| darwin | i.e., $LOCALE, etc. is blank | 02:40 |
| gnarface | i can't imagine why that would be the problem but you can install the package "locales" | 02:40 |
| darwin | if that's necessary or will fix this | 02:40 |
| gnarface | well either way you're gonna want it so it shouldn't hurt to add | 02:41 |
| darwin | when I chroot in it says: bash: warning: setlocale: LC_ALL: cannot change locale (en_US.UTF-8) | 02:41 |
| gnarface | and you'll probably want tzdata too, tangentially related | 02:41 |
| darwin | yes; thanks | 02:42 |
| gnarface | after installing each of those, if no debconf pops up, run "dpkg-reconfigure locales" and "dpkg-reconfigure tzdata" respectively | 02:42 |
| gnarface | and if you do actually intend to use UTF-8 you'll probably need to install some fonts | 02:42 |
| gnarface | this search will return a list of most the font packages: apt-cache search '^ttf-|^fonts-' | 02:43 |
| darwin | i don't need it but some/many command-line programs are allowing it now so the oldest GNU/Linux set pure (non-X/etc.) console/terminals to UTF-8 | 02:44 |
| gnarface | well that error you mentioned while entering the chroot suggested to me your host system is set to a UTF-8 default | 02:44 |
| darwin | it is on $LC_ALL, but not $LOCALE | 02:45 |
| gnarface | "dpkg-reconfigure locales" should fix up the environment but you may have to log out and back in again | 02:45 |
| gnarface | you can run "locale" to get a dump of the relevant variables, compare the host system to inside the chroot | 02:46 |
| gnarface | here's what the normal output should look like for UTF-8 https://paste.debian.net/1282213/ | 02:46 |
| gnarface | if you don't want to use UTF-8, set it to ISO-8859-1 (aka Latin-1) | 02:47 |
| gnarface | if you just leave it unset, some stuff breaks. | 02:47 |
| gnarface | it shouldn't, but that's the way things are | 02:48 |
| darwin | this fixed the locale error when chrooting in | 02:49 |
| darwin | so it's best to set all the locale variables to my locale? There are between five and 10 those variables but I didn't know this would happen | 02:51 |
| gnarface | in my experience it's best to let "dpkg-reconfigure locales" set them for you | 02:52 |
| gnarface | as you can see from that paste.debian.net link i just posted, there's 15 variables listed and they're all set to the same thing except 2 that are blank | 02:53 |
| gnarface | i don't know why that is exactly, but i know that's the way they did it so that's the way most well behaved stuff expects it | 02:53 |
| darwin | i see | 02:53 |
| gnarface | the only people who mess with those are usually trying to patch around something else that's misbehaving | 02:54 |
| darwin | well there are at least 16 because $LOCALE is another unlisted there | 02:54 |
| gnarface | i don't remember the details of those scenarios but if you stick around someone may be able to recall more specifics | 02:54 |
| gnarface | $LOCALE isn't set here, so maybe it's non-standard or just part of something that isn't stock | 02:55 |
| darwin | this page fixed my apt issue: http://www.devuan.org/os/documentation/install-guides/chimaera/upgrade-to-chimaera | 02:56 |
| darwin | it was supposed to be a separate line I guess | 02:56 |
| gnarface | you added it inline with the others? | 02:57 |
| gnarface | yea those entries are all supposed to be on their own lines in sources.list | 02:57 |
| gnarface | and make sure you have chimaera-updates and chimaera-security enabled too like in that example. i forgot to mention that but it should be assumed. | 02:57 |
| gnarface | backports you only want to enable while you're using it specifically, but the other 3 you want enabled all the time | 02:58 |
| gnarface | and it's supposed to be safe to leave backports on too, and many people here will tell you that, but i've found specific bugs related to nvidia driver packages in the past that can cause you to mistakenly pull in ALL of backports, and everyone agrees that's bad. | 02:58 |
| darwin | i'm looking through the kernels now and wondering if there's a lowlatency kernel (or even no-latency, though I wouldn't use this on an OS connected to Internet) | 02:59 |
| gnarface | they're all the same kernel packages as debian. i think you're thinking of the "realtime" kernels for audio production... that's the ones with "-rt-" in the package name | 03:00 |
| gnarface | what i've been told is that their strength is consistent latency | 03:00 |
| gnarface | for when you need real precision | 03:00 |
| gnarface | most normal uses should not need that | 03:00 |
| darwin | i don't think I want real-time, just low-latency | 03:01 |
| gnarface | the only other thing i can think of related to that would require a kernel rebuild to set CONFIG_HZ to something higher than default | 03:01 |
| darwin | i see | 03:01 |
| gnarface | it defaults to with the stock kernels 250, but can be set to 300 or 1000, to reduce apparent UI latency at some cost of CPU overhead | 03:02 |
| darwin | are the real-time ones safe to use when connected to Internet? | 03:03 |
| gnarface | i would assume they're as safe as the others but i never thought to question that | 03:03 |
| darwin | if it means same as no-latency they may not be | 03:04 |
| gnarface | my primary reason to avoid the -rt- kernels is just that they sometimes break certain video games | 03:04 |
| darwin | some Debian derivatives have what they call lowlatency kernels but I haven't seen those ones offer rt ones... | 03:04 |
| gnarface | but if you're doing certain NTSC specific streaming tasks, note you might need a minimum of 300 for CONFIG_HZ | 03:05 |
| darwin | i do have a use for them, even audio. Also this isn't going to be a server but probably not 'streaming' either | 03:05 |
| darwin | just using a lot of stuff in X at once including audio and other production | 03:05 |
| gnarface | well, in theory you could just rob the config from one of those other debian derivatives and merge it with a stock debian one | 03:05 |
| darwin | i see | 03:05 |
| gnarface | aiui the primary reason they don't put CONFIG_HZ at 1000 by default in debian is that there's a tradeoff for server throughput | 03:06 |
| gnarface | as in, it "feels" faster to the user, but is actually not able to get as much work done | 03:07 |
| darwin | there are some other kernel changes/configurations usually made for desktop also | 03:07 |
| gnarface | kernel builds aren't too hard usually with the debian tools | 03:07 |
| gnarface | i can walk you through using them if you want to try it sometime | 03:08 |
| gnarface | i'd recommend you focus on booting with the stock default kernel first though | 03:08 |
| gnarface | it's easy to swap kernels afterwards | 03:08 |
| darwin | okay | 03:08 |
| darwin | i'm 99.999% sure I'm going to boot in today or tomorrow if possible, because my OpenCL display/video/graphics drivers are too old on my main GNU/Linux but you said Devuan has the latest stable AMD graphics drivers available in non-free... though I heard ROCm (Free/Libre and mostly same code) is an alternative now also though some people had more trouble configuring it | 03:10 |
| gnarface | i haven't heard of that one | 03:10 |
| gnarface | the amdgpu packages in the repos have been mostly problem free for me though | 03:11 |
| darwin | AMD started Radeon Open Compute (ROCm) a few years ago which is what they called the 'Open Source' version of mostly the same code | 03:11 |
| gnarface | (way better than nvidia ever was, that's for sure) | 03:11 |
| darwin | yes | 03:11 |
| darwin | would you suggest stay with the default kernel version or is it safe to also install the latest stable? On my main OS I'm using Linux kernel 6.1.31 with few/no problems | 03:12 |
| darwin | on the Debian-based GUI operating systems I administer for users I installed about three different versions of Linux kernel 5 in case one doesn't work right (which was the case in the past) | 03:12 |
| gnarface | you mean with chimaera? i think chimaera-backports has a 6.1 kernel already, so you can install that one easily after you have it booting with the stock 5.x one | 03:13 |
| darwin | yes | 03:13 |
| gnarface | when upstream has a newer version out and it's not in debian yet there's usually a good reason for it | 03:14 |
| gnarface | (usually random crashes) | 03:14 |
| gnarface | you can do whatever you want with your own install but after years of experience i just see a lot of risk involved in chasing version fetishes | 03:15 |
| gnarface | whatever you do, make a backup first | 03:16 |
| darwin | i usually run current OS on my desktop and stable on laptop so I can try new software, report bugs, but still have something stable if it crashes | 03:16 |
| darwin | so I am also willing to test whatever the current/development/experimental/testing version of Devuan is after I boot stable | 03:17 |
| darwin | i have multiple backusp | 03:17 |
| darwin | backups | 03:17 |
| gnarface | devuan testing is currently daedalus, and unstable, the sid equivalent, is ceres | 03:18 |
| gnarface | we don't have an experimental | 03:18 |
| darwin | i'll probably use daedalus... unless ceres isn't always too unstable? | 03:18 |
| darwin | those GUI Debian-based OS usually have entire sets of kernel packages you can install, but it looks like I'll be installing them all individually here, which is fine | 03:18 |
| gnarface | the stability risk with ceres is pretty much identical to sid. right now, daedalus is a good choice because it will be stable soon. after that, ceres will go to shit for several months, most likely | 03:19 |
| gnarface | (going by historical events) | 03:19 |
| darwin | that is odd... one would think by the time testing became stable, unstable would start to become more like testing... | 03:20 |
| gnarface | it is right now | 03:20 |
| gnarface | but after testing goes stable they'll diverge | 03:20 |
| gnarface | and new risky changes will start going into unstable while testing gets left behind | 03:21 |
| darwin | is it possible to downgrade, even if it might be difficult? | 03:21 |
| gnarface | none of that is different from debian | 03:21 |
| gnarface | it is technically possible to downgrade but it's what debian would call an "officially supported action" so you might run into unfixable problems doing it. people have though, and succeeded, but not all the packages can always be guaranteed to cleanup after themselves right when going in reverse like that. | 03:22 |
| darwin | you mean officially unsupported then? | 03:22 |
| darwin | or is 'officially supported' not what it sounds like? | 03:23 |
| gnarface | sorry, yes i meant to type that it's not a officially supported action | 03:23 |
| darwin | i see Debian may have added back in other initialization systems... does that mean Devuan might merge back in, or there's no good reason to do so, or developers still somewhat work with Debian anyway? | 03:25 |
| gnarface | in general i'd recommend against it except in isolated one or two-package situations when none of those packages are involved with the package management itself | 03:25 |
| darwin | after I installed some kernels I get all these messages about missing open firmware. I wish I could afford powerful open hardware (Talos) but can't so I'm running powerful partly-closed hardware | 03:26 |
| gnarface | i wouldn't hold my breath on devuan and debian re-merging. most accounts of actually trying to use other init systems on debian report you have a crippled windowless debian at best | 03:26 |
| darwin | 'missing firmware' | 03:26 |
| darwin | i see | 03:26 |
| gnarface | show me the firmware errors | 03:26 |
| gnarface | they're most likely stuff from non-free | 03:26 |
| gnarface | probably ethernet bluetooth firmware | 03:26 |
| gnarface | ethernet or bluetooth firmware, or wifi | 03:27 |
| darwin | they scrolled off the screen now. Mostly it was what looked like RealTek ethernet stuff (maybe not bluetooth) | 03:27 |
| gnarface | run this as root: dmesg |grep -i firmware | 03:27 |
| gnarface | if it's realtek the package is called "firmware-realtek" | 03:27 |
| gnarface | you'll need to reboot after adding it | 03:27 |
| darwin | i got a few lines in that command | 03:27 |
| gnarface | put them on paste.debian.net and give me the link, or just /msg them to me | 03:28 |
| gnarface | or if it's obvious they're all realtek ones, just install that firmware-realtek package | 03:28 |
| gnarface | it's often needed for realtek gigabit ethernet as well as wifi devices | 03:29 |
| darwin | https://paste.debian.net/hidden/cf7fde24/ | 03:29 |
| gnarface | uh... none of these messages denote missing firmware | 03:29 |
| gnarface | it would be something like error: missing firmware rtl439834988493.bin | 03:30 |
| darwin | i think i saw messages like that... I guess I can uninstall and reinstall a kernel to see the messages again | 03:30 |
| gnarface | wait, try this: dmesg |grep -i error | 03:30 |
| gnarface | oh, one of those messages reminds me though, you'll want to install acpid too | 03:31 |
| gnarface | for power management | 03:31 |
| darwin | yes | 03:31 |
| darwin | these are the errors I got after reinstalling the kernel: http://paste.debian.net/hidden/aef9efd5/ | 03:32 |
| darwin | looks like it's all only realtek | 03:32 |
| gnarface | yea, looks like realtek to me | 03:32 |
| gnarface | firmware-realtek from non-free | 03:32 |
| gnarface | probably your onboard gigabit ethernet. the realtek ones will work fine up to 100mbit without the firmware | 03:33 |
| darwin | i think it's in a card I added, and that my onboard one is Intel | 03:33 |
| gnarface | oh, maybe so | 03:33 |
| darwin | but it might be both | 03:34 |
| gnarface | i can't tell from this | 03:34 |
| darwin | will I have to install any/all these packages: kernel generic, huge, modules, headers, source? | 03:34 |
| gnarface | by headers i assume you mean "linux-headers-`uname -r`" ? | 03:35 |
| darwin | kernel packages for whatever version, yes | 03:35 |
| darwin | looks like maybe there's just image instead of huge & generic, and also kbuild (for building?) | 03:36 |
| gnarface | yea, probably | 03:36 |
| gnarface | for normal operation you would only need the linux-headers corresponding to your running linux-image package, and even then only if one of your drivers requires dkms | 03:38 |
| gnarface | the nvidia drivers require dkms, i don't think the amdgpu ones do but not sure if that's the case for every kernel version | 03:38 |
| gnarface | but otherwise you'd only need kernel headers and source if you're building custom stuff | 03:39 |
| darwin | sometimes amdgpu wouldn't display unless you install dkms | 03:41 |
| darwin | even though theoretically it's not supposed to because I was only using it for OpenCL and the kernel driver works fine as it is | 03:42 |
| darwin | the default driver I guess not from AMD | 03:42 |
| darwin | i'm used to a GNU/Linux installing everything various types of users need, so is there a description page what else I might need that isn't automatically installed? I'm not talking about stuff like X (that's obvious) but other things like firmware and acpid, etc. I found I had to install several text processors/editors, network/mail utilities I counted on always being installed | 03:45 |
| darwin | i guess I should look at a Devuan or Debian manual section for initial installation/setup | 03:47 |
| gnarface | the default amdgpu driver without the "amdgpu" package i believe is similar to the realtek ethernet drivers; it is an open-source component with partially crippled feature support until you add the firmware | 03:53 |
| gnarface | as for finding stuff you might need that isn't on by default, check out these packages: apt-cache search '^task-' | 03:54 |
| darwin | thanks | 03:54 |
| gnarface | some of these correspond to the selections from the tasksel section of the installer | 03:55 |
| gnarface | but i guess you wouldn't have seen that with a debootstrap install | 03:55 |
| darwin | yeah; maybe I should redo it though | 03:56 |
| darwin | just I was supposed to boot a live ISO to see what went wrong with the display/video/graphics driver the other day, then found this would supposedly be easier | 03:56 |
| gnarface | well this gives you a lot more control over what ends up installed than the live iso would | 03:57 |
| gnarface | not sure i'd consider it easier though | 03:57 |
| darwin | quicker but maybe harder in the long run for a beginner to this OS | 03:57 |
| gnarface | yea, but it'll also save a lot of time in the future, learning to do it this way, because you don't have to download extra stuff you're not using | 03:58 |
| gnarface | how much time it can save depends a lot on how slow your network connection is of course | 03:58 |
| darwin | i don't mind having extra stuff, because I have a 1TB SSD/M2/NVME and sometimes just like to see what is there I could use if I want to | 03:59 |
| darwin | however I only allocated 30GB to this installation | 03:59 |
| darwin | i will probably have to increase it | 03:59 |
| gnarface | you think? that's quite a lot really | 03:59 |
| gnarface | a full desktop environment is probably only like 2-4 GB | 04:00 |
| darwin | yes | 04:00 |
| darwin | on Slackware I used most of a 120GB partition and maybe had to increase it recently to 130GB or something | 04:00 |
| gnarface | indeed | 04:00 |
| gnarface | hmm | 04:00 |
| gnarface | i'm trying to figure out which of these task packages corresponds to "standard system utilities" from the regular installer but i'm not seeing it | 04:01 |
| darwin | i'm not sure what task-spooler is--is that stuff like crond & atd? | 04:01 |
| darwin | looks like it might be task-english and task-desktop and some other stuff like task-ssh-server if you consider that standard (I do for doing stuff on a LAN) | 04:02 |
| darwin | though I prefer rsh | 04:02 |
| gnarface | i forget how to find packages in these | 04:02 |
| gnarface | fsmithred: do you remember how to list packages installed by the "task-*" packages? | 04:04 |
| darwin | of course my main OS has KDE but I'll save a few GB because won't be installing that (just konsole xterm, dolphin file manager, kate text editor from it) becuase KDE in recent decades is a mess | 04:04 |
| gnarface | i just remember that in the regular netinstall's tasksel phase, you can check "standard system utilities" and it includes stuff like "less" | 04:04 |
| darwin | i see | 04:04 |
| gnarface | and it doesn't take much space total | 04:04 |
| onefang | List the dependencies to find out what it will install. | 04:05 |
| darwin | i may have missed that one... unless it's task-desktop meaning pure terminals | 04:05 |
| gnarface | onefang: but task-spooler only lists libc6 as a dependency | 04:06 |
| darwin | task-spooler is a task scheduler set which I assume means atd, crond, etc. | 04:07 |
| gnarface | yea, that seems logical i just wish i remembered how to be sure | 04:07 |
| onefang | Task spooler is a Unix batch system where the tasks spooled run one | 04:07 |
| onefang | after the other. Each user in each system has his own job queue. The tasks are | 04:07 |
| onefang | run in the correct context (that of enqueue) from any shell/process, and its | 04:07 |
| onefang | output/results can be easily watched. It is very useful when you know that | 04:07 |
| onefang | your commands depend on a lot of RAM, a lot of disk use, give a lot of | 04:07 |
| onefang | output, or for whatever reason it's better not to run them at the same time. | 04:07 |
| onefang | So it's not one of the usual task- things, it's merely one package. | 04:08 |
| gnarface | hmm | 04:08 |
| darwin | maybe it's task-console-productivity | 04:08 |
| onefang | "personal job scheduler" | 04:08 |
| gnarface | ah, yea if i run "apt-cache depends task-desktop" it's got much more listed | 04:08 |
| gnarface | darwin: no, that's not it. i recall that one is definitely not it and has a lot more in it than the one i'm thinking of, but now i'm suspecting that tasksel may fudge that selection and not actually use a task-* package for it | 04:09 |
| darwin | oh... | 04:10 |
| darwin | i think I will need it so if I can't find it I'm going to try to reinstall with the live or (assuming I can get drivers fixed) full desktop ISO | 04:10 |
| darwin | there should be a live full desktop one | 04:10 |
| gnarface | darwin: i frequently do pseudo-minimal installs with the netinstaller in expert mode, and just select the "standard system utilities" from tasksel and nothing else | 04:11 |
| gnarface | and if i forget that checkbox i have to install less manually | 04:11 |
| gnarface | and i notice the first time i open a man page | 04:11 |
| gnarface | because without it you can only scroll in one direction and search is limited | 04:12 |
| darwin | i prefer most | 04:12 |
| gnarface | you might like the netinstall | 04:12 |
| gnarface | but the live iso is good for testing hardware compatibility up front | 04:13 |
| gnarface | the netinstall can't really do that for you | 04:13 |
| gnarface | so you might want to actually boot the live iso once then actually install with the netinstall | 04:13 |
| gnarface | but that said, this chroot method works too | 04:14 |
| gnarface | it's really a minor issue if you are missing something. there's almost nothing that can't be as easily added after the install | 04:14 |
| onefang | That's what you do with debootstrap and friends, install the bare minimum, then install everything else manually, or with a script. I think our installer is a wrapper around debootstrap. | 04:15 |
| darwin | Errors were encountered while processing: tin | 04:26 |
| darwin | (installing task-console-productivity) | 04:26 |
| gnarface | interesting | 04:27 |
| gnarface | does it say what error, exactly? | 04:27 |
| gnarface | ugh, nevermind | 04:28 |
| gnarface | just install everything you want from task-console-productivity without tin | 04:28 |
| gnarface | Description: Full-screen easy to use Usenet newsreader | 04:28 |
| gnarface | i'm betting you'll never use that | 04:28 |
| darwin | i prefer slrn | 04:29 |
| darwin | does this mean it stopped on tin or went on after that? | 04:30 |
| gnarface | stopped on tin, i think | 04:30 |
| gnarface | not sure | 04:30 |
| gnarface | but it won't hurt to re-request install of an already installed package if you just want to go down the list | 04:30 |
| gnarface | i'm curious about the actual error it's choking on but it's academic | 04:31 |
| gnarface | maybe worth trying it once more in case it's just something with that one repo in the round-robin | 04:31 |
| gnarface | but it's probably not a mission critical package | 04:31 |
| gnarface | darwin: what actual error do you get if you just try to install tin directly? | 04:37 |
| user007 | hi, is there an Openai whisper channel on irc? | 05:00 |
| gnarface | user007: dunno, but that question is appropriate for #devaun-offtopic | 05:01 |
| gnarface | user007: sorry i meant #devuan-offtopic | 05:01 |
| darwin | i don't care about tin right now; I finally booted the Devuan live ISO to see what went wrong with display in the Devuan full desktop installer... I got a GUI and terminals, so how do I test what went wrong? | 05:45 |
| darwin | the live ISO didn't let me select tasks :( Is there a manual I should read about installing and doing that? | 05:57 |
| darwin | can I run the full desktop installer in command-line mode only so it doesn't switch to some other graphical mode? | 06:39 |
| brocashelm | refractainstaller (command) should work | 06:49 |
| gnarface | note that's not the same thing as the regular installer but it is what the live iso is made of | 06:49 |
| gnarface | darwin: you had said back then that the ncurses mode was the one that got corrupted for you, right? not the x11 mode? | 06:50 |
| gnarface | darwin: there should have been a ncurses mode (probably labeled something like text expert mode) and i've never seen it screw up on previous releases. if it was the x11 mode though, that i've seen corrupt a lot, and could easily be explained by the installer kernel being older than the one on the live iso | 06:51 |
| darwin | yes | 06:57 |
| darwin | netinstall ISO had same problem | 06:58 |
| darwin | even expert mode | 06:58 |
| darwin | is there another install option on live ISO? I didn't have full configuration options like it shows in the manual and like you explained, selecting tasks... | 06:58 |
| gnarface | very weird, i'd like to see some screenshots or pictures of what you described if possible, maybe i could guess at something... | 06:59 |
| darwin | ok | 06:59 |
| darwin | can I post it on LinuxQuestions.org ? | 06:59 |
| gnarface | yea, you're right that the live iso is relatively limited. it's made with refracta tools so you can use those from the command-line if you wish, personally i think at that point you might as well just chroot from the live iso though | 07:00 |
| gnarface | but that's how i learned | 07:00 |
| gnarface | uh... yea post it there, i'll look | 07:00 |
| gnarface | as long as it's public, i don't have a user there | 07:01 |
| darwin | ok, I took a photo | 07:03 |
| darwin | what would I type in the live ISO shell to install the normal way? | 07:03 |
| gnarface | i don't think the traditional installer can be run that way | 07:05 |
| gnarface | i think someone did mention something about mounting the iso itself and copying the installer's whole partition onto a harddrive boot partition but i think you still need to boot it | 07:05 |
| darwin | i could do that but won't I run into same issue? | 07:06 |
| gnarface | yea probably | 07:06 |
| darwin | then I guess my options are debootstrap or wait for new ISOs | 07:06 |
| gnarface | i can't imagine what that would be in text mode though but that's why i asked for the picture | 07:06 |
| gnarface | well theoretically you can build your own iso with a newer kernel, and the amdgpu firmware... whatever it is between the two of those things it'll probably fix it, since the live iso is working for you | 07:07 |
| gnarface | but it's a lot of work to go through unless you really want the experience | 07:07 |
| gnarface | i believe the traditional installer is itself also available as a package which you can use to make isos, but i don't know much more about it than that | 07:08 |
| gnarface | i would have to read the docs that come with it | 07:09 |
| gnarface | i think though, from its reputation, if you just want a custom installer and don't care much about the interface, the refracta tools are a easier choice | 07:10 |
| gnarface | (the traditional installer has a reputation for being a pain in the ass to update) | 07:10 |
| darwin | http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/showthread.php?p=6435109#post6435109 | 07:15 |
| gnarface | yep, that's weird. if it was a CRT i would guesss it's got the resolution or refresh rate wrong, but a LCD should refuse invalid settings | 07:18 |
| gnarface | you said it was a new prett new amd card right? someone who knows the installer would probably know what kernel it's using | 07:18 |
| gnarface | *pretty new | 07:19 |
| darwin | it's not that new anymore | 07:19 |
| gnarface | yea but that installer kernel might be REALLY old | 07:19 |
| darwin | it's a RX 6900 XT, already several years old; newest is RX 7900 XTX | 07:19 |
| gnarface | hmm | 07:20 |
| gnarface | and that is a picture of it in ncurses mode not x11 mode, right? | 07:21 |
| darwin | yes | 07:22 |
| darwin | i didn't even see an X mode | 07:23 |
| darwin | i just selected 'INSTALL' and it looks like plain text if I go to expert install but is still messed up | 07:23 |
| darwin | i'd like to mount the full desktop installer ISO and just update the kernel and remake it | 07:23 |
| gnarface | try the package | 07:23 |
| gnarface | or actually, hmm... there might be scripts that make this easier somewhere on git.devuan.org | 07:24 |
| gnarface | if you build the one in the repo you might get debian | 07:24 |
| gnarface | ah yes, i'm guessing you actually want this: https://git.devuan.org/devuan/installer-iso | 07:24 |
| gnarface | darwin: ^ | 07:25 |
| gnarface | this might make it really easy actually | 07:25 |
| darwin | ok | 07:25 |
| darwin | can I use this git thing in a non-Debian-based GNU/Linux or I have to use it in one? | 07:28 |
| gnarface | uh... i don't know | 07:29 |
| gnarface | someone around here knows but they're probably asleep right now | 07:29 |
| gnarface | i'd ask fsmithred | 07:29 |
| darwin | it looks like it may be usable on any but I'll need instructions to use newer kernel | 07:31 |
| darwin | and I already have the full desktop ISO; I'd rather this git thing use that than download it all again | 07:35 |
| gnarface | i don't know whether that's feasible or not | 07:40 |
| darwin | is there Devuan mailing-list/newsgroup/forum? | 07:53 |
| gnarface | darwin: there is a forum | 07:54 |
| gnarface | it's in the channel /topic | 07:54 |
| n4dir | In Xorg log files i got messages from systemd-logind, but nothing like that is installed, nor is it to be found with locate | 21:28 |
| gnarface | if n4dir comes back, someone tell them to check for elogind | 23:37 |
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