| buZz | latex: wth is 'rtkit' ? | 00:37 |
|---|---|---|
| buZz | latex: i followed the debian wiki page i gave you before | 00:37 |
| rwp | buZz, rtkit is a D-Bus thing that can change the scheduling policy of processes dynamically based upon dbus requests. | 01:34 |
| buZz | ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ i do have it installed seemingly | 01:35 |
| buZz | but didnt notice anything | 01:35 |
| rwp | I rather suspect that neither you nor I will be doing things that will cause it to be in action. | 01:35 |
| buZz | to start pipewire > i logged into X as my user, open a terminal , pipewire >> pw.log & ; pipewire-pulse >> pw.log & ; wireplumber >> pw.log & | 01:36 |
| buZz | and close terminal :) | 01:36 |
| buZz | i couldnt find any devuan script to start it, gentoo wiki mentioned 'just start em by hand' when lacking systemd | 01:36 |
| rwp | Sounds reasonable enough. I have not used pipewire myself and have no experience with it. I have had the unfortunate experience with pulseaudio and anything must be better. | 01:42 |
| buZz | alright | 02:18 |
| buZz | i used jack a lot before, pulse briefly, they are all fine but dont really mix | 02:18 |
| buZz | alsa obv is fine but again doesnt really mix with the others | 02:18 |
| buZz | so pipewire is amazing to me, in that it can bundle all 3 interfaces and just use kernel's alsadriver to output it | 02:19 |
| buZz | so you get native alsa inputs, native alsa outputs, but with all convenience of pulse/jack in routing and volume-per-application etc | 02:20 |
| buZz | and all sound sources and sinks are visible in all interfaces, alsa/pulse/jack , plus native pipewire too | 02:20 |
| rwp | Everything I have heard about pipewire is that it does a good job at these things. The author was experienced from jack prior to pipewire. | 02:21 |
| grayrock | hm, i wonder if that works with rosegarden/fluidsynth/jack. | 02:22 |
| onefang | ALSA + JACK works fine for me and my way too many audio interfaces. | 02:24 |
| jack | How do I get proper flatpak support in daedalus | 02:28 |
| jack | i installed flatpak, and some apps off flathub, but none of them show up in the system menu, or are runnable from the command line. | 02:29 |
| rwp | jack, I know nothing other than what I read here: https://www.flatpak.org/setup/Debian | 02:30 |
| jack | even when I navigate to /var/lib/flatpak | 02:30 |
| jack | Cool. Will try that. | 02:30 |
| jack | thank you! | 02:30 |
| rwp | In order for things to show up in the menu there must be a .freedesktop file in one of the expected directories. And on the command line would need PATH adjusted to include where the executable was installed. | 02:31 |
| jack | oh also: Had to do t he nouveau.nomodeset=0 to boot this laptop. That was in rc2. | 02:31 |
| jack | fresh install. | 02:31 |
| rwp | The #4 where it says "To complete setup, restart your system." makes me question what it is doing. Why? Is it modifying a user's ~/.profile? Something like that would be unneighborly. | 02:32 |
| jack | Yeah, not sure. | 02:33 |
| jack | trying now without reboot. :) | 02:33 |
| jack | I agree though: All reboot should be for windows normies. | 02:33 |
| jack | Unless your updating the kernel or something. | 02:33 |
| jack | Getting nvidia drivers installed was a real bear. | 02:34 |
| jack | tons of missing dependencies. | 02:34 |
| rwp | You installed the nonfree nvidia driver? That explains needing nouveau.nomodeset=0 I guess. | 02:34 |
| jack | no i needed that to boot at all before i installed anything. | 02:34 |
| rwp | Which graphics adapter do you have? So that others will know to avoid it? | 02:35 |
| jack | laptop 1650ti | 02:35 |
| jack | one of the most popular options. | 02:35 |
| jack | I think we need to fix devuan. | 02:35 |
| jack | yeah, the app I just installed still isn't showing up. I'll try a reboot. BRB | 02:36 |
| rwp | Well... The nouveau driver is part of the Linux kernel. And all of the distros are using that kernel. | 02:36 |
| jack | We should burn it with fire. | 02:36 |
| jack | Yep, after reboot the flatapps show up. | 02:40 |
| jack | But I had to manually edit grub during boot again with nomodeset. | 02:40 |
| rwp | In order to really fix things it would be a Linux kernel fix rather than a Devuan fix. And then all of the distros will get it. | 02:40 |
| rwp | Are you editing /etc/default/grub adding it to GRUB_CMDLINE_LINUX and then running update-grub? | 02:41 |
| jack | Yep. | 02:41 |
| jack | Still failed | 02:41 |
| rwp | Notes: Options in Options in GRUB_CMDLINE_LINUX are always effective. Options in GRUB_CMDLINE_LINUX_DEFAULT are effective ONLY during normal boot (NOT during recovery mode). | 02:41 |
| rwp | If you edited that file and ran update-grub then the results should be compiled into /boot/grub/grub.cfg and you should see them there. Do you? Sounds like something failed during update-grub action. | 02:42 |
| rwp | Is nouveau.nomodeset=0 still needed with the proprietary nvidia driver? I would think the "nouveau." namespace would need to be removed leaving simply "nomodeset=0" in that case. | 02:44 |
| jack | yes. | 02:45 |
| rwp | I have no mental model of operation under which all of those things exist at the same time. Hmm... The sums do not add up. | 02:46 |
| jack | I just manually edited grub.cfg. | 02:46 |
| jack | That should work. LOL | 02:46 |
| jack | Will test in a bit. | 02:47 |
| rwp | I am good with hacking the grub.cfg file manually as a debug strategy as long as you know update-grub wipes it out. | 02:47 |
| rwp | Or at least update-grub is *supposed* to wipe it out. If that is not working then that's something to debug. | 02:48 |
| jack | I ran it. Not sure why .cfg isn't changed. | 02:48 |
| rwp | And if the only thing happening so far is installing the proprietary nvidia driver then I suspect it immediately as one of the usual suspects of system problems. | 02:48 |
| jack | No, it failed before I installed it. | 02:48 |
| jack | Fresh install rc2 | 02:49 |
| jack | This would be a release blocker imho | 02:49 |
| rwp | On a pristine installation? That is too simple to fail! | 02:49 |
| jack | Yeah, but nevertheless: That is what ocurred. | 02:49 |
| rwp | Agreed. That would be a release critical bug for the installer. | 02:49 |
| jack | Why I'm reporting it here. | 02:49 |
| jack | This is pretty generic hardware. | 02:49 |
| onefang | release critical bug? What did I miss? | 02:50 |
| rwp | I'll mention fsmithred here for noticing this too. | 02:50 |
| jack | this system won't boot without nouveau.nomodeset=0 manually added to the grub on boot. | 02:50 |
| onefang | I had to reboot, so missed the beginning. | 02:50 |
| rwp | onefang, jack says that on a pristine installation of rc2 that update-grub did not propagate a needed option from /etc/default/grub into the /boot/grub/grub.cfg file. | 02:51 |
| jack | Also: update-grub is not keeping the changes in grub.cfg | 02:51 |
| rwp | update-grub won't keep changes there as that is the compilation target from /etc/default/grub and the other templates and overwrites it when run. | 02:51 |
| onefang | update-grub recreates /boot/grub/grub.cf from it's config files in /etc | 02:51 |
| jack | Also: When installing flatpak, it should really recommend the other items on: | 02:51 |
| jack | https://www.flatpak.org/setup/Debian | 02:52 |
| jack | You can't really use flatpak without the gnome plugin | 02:52 |
| jack | Additionally: None of that should require a reboot. | 02:53 |
| jack | This is all on the very latest daedalus ISO | 02:53 |
| jack | fresh install, new hard drive. | 02:53 |
| rwp | When you say "When installing flatpak, it should really recommend the other items" to what specifically are you referring to? Because https://www.flatpak.org/setup/Debian does recommend that. | 02:54 |
| rwp | bbiab | 02:56 |
| jack | i installed flatpak from the console. | 02:59 |
| jack | it did not do the "recommend gnome plugin" bit. | 02:59 |
| jack | So it was broken out of the box. | 03:00 |
| jack | Also pressing the Repos button in synaptic doesn't work. | 03:05 |
| jack | Settings -> Repositories. | 03:06 |
| buZz | grayrock: very high odds of yes | 03:24 |
| buZz | i used it with fluidsynth and zynaddsubfx | 03:25 |
| rwp | jack, I don't know what more can be done about the flatpack package. It can't Depend upon gnome-software-plugin-flatpak because most people don't run GNOME and that would then require it for everyone. And if it Recommends gnome-software-plugin-flatpak then for all of the people who don't disable Recommends it has the same effect. So it can't really do that either. | 04:53 |
| rwp | Also, We don't really have GNOME in Devuan but "GNOME Flashback" which is another fork of GNOME similar to Mate but less well debugged. Sure it's available. But I recommend Mate over GNOME Flashback. Mate is more mainstream well used and much better tested. | 04:54 |
| rwp | Xb | 04:55 |
| rwp | Oops. Keyboard failure. My USB became dislodged and I didn't reload my keybindings. | 04:56 |
| mason | rwp: I've gotten around that recently by finally figuring out how Debian gets away without traditional keymaps. | 04:57 |
| mason | rwp: Turns out, it treats X keymaps as native, and on boot converts them to console keymaps. | 04:57 |
| mason | So I took my console keymap, respun it as an X keymap, and now I can swap keyboards without losing my map. | 04:58 |
| mason | The sources are in /usr/share/X11/xkb/symbols/ and are specified in /etc/default/keyboard, in XKBLAYOUT | 04:59 |
| mason | I'd been wondering about it for years, so finally a few months back I dug in. Was worth it. | 04:59 |
| rwp | This was my X keymap. I change capslock into a control key. That was me trying to C-x b switch buffers in emacs. | 05:01 |
| mason | rwp: That should re-apply on reconnect then. | 05:01 |
| rwp | I do it as an xmodmap and nothing triggers it to apply on connection. That's the part I should figure out. | 05:01 |
| mason | rwp: Do you have this in there? XKBOPTIONS="ctrl:nocaps,compose:lwin" | 05:01 |
| mason | rwp: That's what I'm saying. No more xmodmap. | 05:02 |
| rwp | I do not. | 05:02 |
| mason | rwp: That'll map your caps lock to control, and I also set my code key (windows) to compose. | 05:02 |
| rwp | I'll try it! Thanks for poking me that direction. | 05:02 |
| mason | Then the rest of the layout happens in my file, which I base on /usr/share/X11/xkb/symbols/us with some changes, then calling it /usr/share/X11/xkb/symbols/us-bliss | 05:03 |
| mason | rwp: I've been mucking with keyboards the last year or so and it got fairly frustrating having to rerun xmodmap all the time. | 05:03 |
| rwp | Normally I do "setxkbmap -option terminate:ctrl_alt_bksp -option compose:menu" and then "xmodmap .xmodmap" immediately following. | 05:03 |
| mason | Yeah, you can have it all happen automagically, and I bet you'll like it as much as I did. | 05:04 |
| rwp | I have edited the files and made those changes. But have something running that I don't want to disrupt to restart X. I'll try it and let you know. Thanks! | 05:06 |
| mason | Enjoy. Ping me when you've given it a try. | 05:07 |
| jack | rwp, : Yeah, I'm using MATE | 11:28 |
| jack | Not sure what to say. but the current implementation is sub-optimal. | 11:28 |
| jack | Also: Wine32 is missing from the repos. | 13:27 |
| jack | Vital for wine users. | 13:27 |
| brocashelm | jack: have you enabled 32-bit architecture? | 13:28 |
| brocashelm | sudo dpkg --add-architecture i386 | 13:28 |
| brocashelm | then try searching wine32 again | 13:29 |
| jack | Yes I did that. wine32 didn't show up in synaptic. | 13:39 |
| jack | Then I installed libc6, and downloaded wine32 .deb from packages.org | 13:39 |
| jack | Errr packages.debian.org | 13:40 |
| jack | Also nvtop is missing in the repos. | 13:57 |
| rrq | https://pkginfo.devuan.org/cgi-bin/policy-query.html?c=package&q=*nvtop* | 13:58 |
| jack | Whew, hosed the whole system, had to manually edit my DNS nameservers from a rescue boot. | 14:56 |
| jack | Now I'm rebuilding mate. | 14:56 |
| jack | I have to manually startx now after reboot, how do I fix that? | 14:56 |
| FatPhil | jack: are you using a display manager? | 15:10 |
| jack | Yeah, errr... I was, but I think I hosed it. | 15:12 |
| jack | I saw an error there at one point. | 15:12 |
| jack | Where's that setting at? | 15:12 |
| FatPhil | if you have something like xdm installed, then that starts as an rc script - check what's started in your runlevel under /etc/rc... | 15:16 |
| jack | ok, will do. I think mate uses lightdm by default.... | 15:21 |
| FatPhil | /sbin/runlevel will tell you the (previous and) current runlevel, let's say it's 5. there should be a symlink in /etc/rc5.d/ pointing to /etc/init.d/lightdm , if the symlink has the name S..lightdm, then it should be started, but if it's called K..lightdm then it's stopped | 15:26 |
| FatPhil | here, ".." stands for a number which tells init what order to run things in | 15:26 |
| onefang | sysv-rc-conf makes that sort of thing easy. | 15:26 |
| FatPhil | ah, I don't have that installed, but if you know what you're looking for, it's just a simple ls | 15:28 |
| FatPhil | until you need to change something, of course, which is unnecessarily hairy without a helper tool. | 15:31 |
| mason | jack: From last night, after you added the new architecture, did you say "apt update" before looking again"? | 16:20 |
| nemo | heh. continuuing saga of the user running devuan... they decided to install gnome desktop in their VM | 19:13 |
| nemo | which pulled in wayland | 19:14 |
| nemo | aaand seems to have totally locked up the VM's meagre GPU resources | 19:14 |
| nemo | switching them to MATE now | 19:14 |
| nemo | wow. gnome-shell and gnome-* pulls in a crazy number of deps. even an apache module? wut? | 19:24 |
| scorpion2185[m] | can you convert debian 12 to devuan 12 runit? | 19:41 |
| rwp | scorpion2185[m], Debian? I don't think so. Debian is all about systemd. But you can convert Debian to Devuan first. Then convert Devuan to runit. Devuan has init freedom. | 19:43 |
| mason | scorpion2185[m]: I'm going to disagree. You can swap around freely. Just takes the right ordering. | 19:45 |
| rwp | Oh! Sorry. I read that second devuan 12 as "devuan" now. It was the 12 that snagged me. It would be Devuan 5 for Devuan. | 19:45 |
| mason | Hah, and I also confused that, and read it as Debian to Debian-runit. | 19:46 |
| rwp | I had read that as debian 12 systemd to debian 12 runit. My bad! | 19:46 |
| mason | But yeah, you can swap around just about anything. | 19:46 |
| scorpion2185[m] | i mean debian to devuan/runit | 19:47 |
| mason | scorpion2185[m]: If it were me I'd switch to runit first, and then migrate to Devuan. | 19:47 |
| rwp | Yes. You can do that. Works. | 19:47 |
| scorpion2185[m] | is there some guide? also it has FDE | 19:48 |
| rwp | Note that in Debian/Devuan/Ubuntu/Mint/Trisquel (the entire family) there are few native runit scripts and runit mostly runs the sysvinit scripts in compatibility mode. Which works okay no problem. | 19:48 |
| fsmithred | make sure you get the runit-services package for additional run scripts. | 19:49 |
| rwp | scorpion2185[m], Look at the migration guides here: https://www.devuan.org/os/install | 19:49 |
| mason | I see some potentially useful stuff here: https://lecorbeausvault.wordpress.com/2022/02/07/debian-switching-init-system-easily-openrc-sysvinit-runit/ | 19:49 |
| scorpion2185[m] | no guide for bookworm yet there | 19:51 |
| rwp | I think the Buster to Beowulf is probably still useful though. | 19:52 |
| rwp | Sorry I meant Bullseye to Chimaera. https://www.devuan.org/os/documentation/install-guides/chimaera/bullseye-to-chimaera | 19:53 |
| scorpion2185[m] | why not bullseye to to chimaera? | 19:53 |
| fsmithred | I think tito's migration script has been updated. I'll find a link. | 19:53 |
| rwp | I hate that all of those are all starting with a 'b' and I need a cheat sheet to keep them straight! | 19:53 |
| nemo | heh. y'all thoroughly confused me with the exchange between :45 to :47 but I'm glad you know what you're doing. so what *would* be the best procedure for going from Debian to Devuan ? | 19:53 |
| nemo | not that I have any Debian left, but kinda curious | 19:54 |
| rwp | nemo, There is disagreement about the init order so take this at face value but I would follow https://www.devuan.org/os/documentation/install-guides/chimaera/bullseye-to-chimaera for Debian to Devuan. | 19:54 |
| rwp | And then afterward I would convert to runit. And install runit-services as suggested by fsmithred. | 19:55 |
| fsmithred | https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20230625.205150.61a62b84.en.html | 19:55 |
| rwp | I am all for scripting things and do it myself a lot but perhaps that isn't the best general purpose documentation. :-( | 19:58 |
| scorpion2185[m] | is that script good with FDE? | 20:00 |
| nemo | reading that guide, it all seems pretty reasonable and straightforward | 20:00 |
| scorpion2185[m] | but it installs a DE, can I avoid that? WM user there | 20:01 |
| fsmithred | scorpion2185[m], at the moment, I can't think of anything that would change betweek debian and devuan with regard to FDE | 20:01 |
| rwp | nemo, It's not too difficult of a process. Have converted many systems that way. | 20:01 |
| fsmithred | we don't fork cryptsetup or grub | 20:01 |
| fsmithred | maybe just look over the script to see if there are any specific issues. | 20:02 |
| rwp | Note that Debian split cryptsetup into cryptsetup and cryptsetup-initramfs and if you need it then you need to ensure that cryptsetup-initramfs is installed. I have been snagged by that twice now. And embarrassingly I knew the problem already on the second snag. | 20:03 |
| nemo | scorpion2185[m]: can't imagine that's actually necessary | 20:03 |
| nemo | scorpion2185[m]: although amusingly I ensure all the VMs at work have a desktop to reassure the admins used to ms windows | 20:03 |
| fsmithred | author says that server migrations are not supported, so I'm not sure what that means. | 20:03 |
| nemo | fsmithred: maybe worried about taking responsibility for weird edge cases? | 20:04 |
| rwp | Probably that headless remote no console access can be a problem if something goes wrong and you can't get on the console to fix it. | 20:04 |
| nemo | rwp: fortunately I've never had to work on a remote server without some form of console in years. yay for VMs ☺ | 20:04 |
| nemo | now if the *host* has problems, then ,yeah, time for a trip to the server room | 20:05 |
| fsmithred | nemo, maybe. My own observation is that any instructions don't work for all cases or for the same cases over time. | 20:05 |
| rwp | scorpion2185[m], Reacting to you comment, the end of that guide does say to install task-xfce-desktop (or ahem task-gnome-desktop) but that is not needed if you don't want it. I don't run a DE here either. | 20:06 |
| fsmithred | I can't recall right now if it was chimaera or beowulf, we had to edit the migration instructions a few times because they stopped working. | 20:06 |
| rwp | However you _might_ want to look at the dependencies that it would pull in and see if any of those are things you think you might need. "apt-get install -s task-xfce-desktop" simulated only | 20:06 |
| scorpion2185[m] | i said WM not VM, window manager no DE | 20:07 |
| nemo | scorpion2185[m]: what he's saying is still helpful IMO | 20:07 |
| scorpion2185[m] | sure | 20:08 |
| nemo | scorpion2185[m]: he's suggesting you pretend to do the DE thing, just to see if it is pulling in anything your WM might need | 20:08 |
| fsmithred | in general it's easier to migrate without a DE. | 20:08 |
| nemo | ok | 20:08 |
| nemo | https://pkgmaster.devuan.org/bannedpackages.txt ← this isn't up to date right? (the tomcat on banned list seems odd... well... I mean, tomcat10 is definitely allowed, no idea why 9 would be banned) | 20:08 |
| fsmithred | nemo, a package can be banned in one release but not in another. | 20:09 |
| nemo | fsmithred: ok. I was just puzzled why 9 would be banned but not 10 | 20:10 |
| rwp | Likely something got fixed in 10 and it no longer needed to be banned. | 20:11 |
| rwp | There are people working in Debian to make it a more inclusive place. It's just a slow uphill battle there. | 20:11 |
| fsmithred | looks like tomcat9 was banned in beowulf. I see tomcat9 packages in chimaera. | 20:11 |
| nemo | rwp: interesting. and the ban was only for beowulf-security. wild | 20:12 |
| nemo | so rare for a security patch to severely break things | 20:12 |
| nemo | they kinda try avoiding doing that ☺ | 20:12 |
| fsmithred | I can't explain that part. It might have to do with when the package first got forked. | 20:12 |
| rwp | I am sure that if we looked into the specific details that it would make sense for it to be banned. | 20:12 |
| fsmithred | pretty sure it was a systemd requirement | 20:13 |
| rwp | scorpion2185[m], As a general comment people migrating a laptop which connects to the network with WiFi that was using WICD must be migrated to something other than the now orphaned and moribund wicd which depended upon python2 and so has fallen into disrepair. That might be the main reason why the task-xfce-desktop is suggested. Because that will pull in a wifi widget. | 20:14 |
| fsmithred | good call. | 20:15 |
| fsmithred | if the wicd metapackage is installed, you will automatically get network-manager | 20:15 |
| rwp | Most people who used to use wicd have converged on using connman as the new heir apparent. Those who previously used network-manage continue to use network-manager. It's your choice. | 20:15 |
| rwp | And then there are oddballs like me who have gone my own path. Noting that not all who wander are lost. | 20:16 |
| rwp | I find that connman works fine but does seem a little odd in user interface to me. I miss the simpler wicd interface. I can see people choosing network-manager for UI reasons. (Though NM has screwed me over many times downing a network connection on upgrade and never bringing it online again.) | 20:18 |
| rwp | bbiab | 20:19 |
| fluffywolf | I use wicd. last time I used network-manager I utterly despised it. I'm figuring wicd should just keep working... | 20:32 |
| hagbard | I just edit my wpa_supplicant.conf if needed, or use wpa_gui if i just want to connect once. | 20:35 |
| latex | buZz: thanks it sorta worked | 20:50 |
| jack | So how do I get the network notification back in my system tray? I think I've fixed everything else... LOL | 22:40 |
| rph751 | I'm trying to register on git.devuan.org, but it does not send me a confirmation email. How do I proceed ? | 23:26 |
| djph | check your spambox | 23:56 |
| djph | ? | 23:56 |
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