| LjL | and anyway, Hungary bought Sputnik and the EU got mad and threatened | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| Arsanerit | ubLIX: Angry maybe, but that doesn't kill anyone. | 00:00 |
| Arsanerit | Didn't Italy also order Sputnik-V? | 00:00 |
| LjL | no | 00:00 |
| LjL | one production factory here disclosed that they may be licensed to produce it | 00:00 |
| LjL | but italy has not publicly committed to buying any afaik | 00:00 |
| Arsanerit | I think Bavaria ordered Sputnik-V which somewhat annoyed Berlin. | 00:00 |
| LjL | it's been talked about, for sure | 00:00 |
| Arsanerit | Or maybe they just went into talks about buying it. | 00:01 |
| LjL | yeah some *regions* in italy have tried to buy their own vaccines, but i think the central government stopped them | 00:01 |
| de-facto | buying things is not the whole problem, producing them in enough quantity actually is | 00:01 |
| de-facto | and with things like US defense act in place some ingredients may be hard to get hold of | 00:02 |
| Arsanerit | They did buy enough, but they didn't buy into production capacity when they should have, like the USA did. | 00:02 |
| Arsanerit | Would it still be useful to do so today? | 00:02 |
| de-facto | so why dont they invest everything into making an independent production chain? | 00:02 |
| Arsanerit | de-facto: Because the EU believes in "free market" solutions. | 00:02 |
| de-facto | companies that try like e.g. CureVac dont have enough money | 00:02 |
| Arsanerit | Goodnight. | 00:03 |
| de-facto | ng8 | 00:03 |
| de-facto | gn8 | 00:03 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID19 Vaccine Tracker: Shannon McKearnan: AnGes: AG0302-COVID19 → https://is.gd/vxnUZO | 00:04 |
| de-facto | yes of course it would be very useful to establish an independent production capacity | 00:04 |
| de-facto | its not like there would be oversaturated supply in covid vaccines be expected anytime soon | 00:04 |
| de-facto | all the poorer countries in the south dont have access to vaccines | 00:05 |
| de-facto | not even covax could ensure that | 00:05 |
| de-facto | but big pharma sits on their patents that mostly emerged from research funded by public money | 00:06 |
| de-facto | well maybe except for AZ? not sure | 00:09 |
| de-facto | imho there should be an commission searching for unused production capabilities and make sure they get used for producing vaccines, if patents are in the way they should be nullified | 00:11 |
| de-facto | btw that is lawful, just not in the interest of the profiteers | 00:12 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Lancet (Online): [Viewpoint] Problems with traffic light approaches to public health emergencies of international concern: The declaration of a Public Health Emergency of International Concern (PHEIC) is a key mechanism within the 2005 International Health Regulations (IHR) and the governance of global health security. The declaration is [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/xfbcGJ | 00:34 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: US oil output climbs toward level not seen since pandemic’s start → https://is.gd/yANmFv | 00:55 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Europe passed the grim milestone of one million coronavirus deaths on Monday, as the World Health Organization warned that infections are rising exponentially despite widespread efforts aimed at stopping them → https://is.gd/h172YH | 01:05 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Johnson & Johnson's one-dose COVID-19 vaccine won't be coming to Australia due to AstraZeneca similarities. → https://is.gd/0VCfRW | 01:26 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Canada is not opening tourism yet but considers Canada-US vaccine passport → https://is.gd/vau9Ig | 01:46 |
| Brainstorm | New from BBC Health: (news): Covid vaccine: All over-50s and high risk groups offered first dose → https://is.gd/m5g9Sj | 02:48 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: British variant of COVID-19 not as severe as feared: Study → https://is.gd/wJ4wLL | 04:10 |
| finely[m] | <de-facto "so why dont they invest everythi"> The people running government departments used to (or will soon) work at the pharma companies (revolving door corruption). When the pliant politicians are voted out they get employed on the pharma companies boards of directors. And pharma gives millions in 'donations' to political parties. | 04:39 |
| finely[m] | <de-facto "well maybe except for AZ? not su"> Nope. Oxford university was going the give away their vaccine intellectual property before the Gates foundation pressured them to sell it. | 04:41 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: World Bank, Gavi urge countries with excess COVID-19 vaccines to release them → https://is.gd/5lGwKd | 04:41 |
| LjL | “Our data, within the context and limitations of a real-world study, provide initial reassurance that severity in hospitalised patients with B.1.1.7 is not markedly different from severity in those without,” the researchers said in the study. | 05:00 |
| LjL | yeah, okay, but how many get hospitalized in the first place? | 05:01 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Foreign interference in Canada hitting Cold War levels thanks to COVID-19, says spy agency → https://is.gd/KooQrT | 05:12 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: Ireland is latest country to restrict use of AstraZeneca vaccine → https://is.gd/rSeHHY | 05:23 |
| ji | Cases are increasing but atleast no one is panicking | 05:24 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: Britain rejoices and asks: are lockdowns finally finished? → https://is.gd/rpCqzQ | 05:33 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express (Health): Fitness: Preity Zinta shares the ‘best kind of therapy’ to deal with pandemic stress, lockdowns → https://is.gd/1P9f0T | 05:44 |
| Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test): China_Flu: CDC chief urges Michigan to 'close things down' amid spike → https://is.gd/LmEV4V | 06:15 |
| Brainstorm | New from EurekAlert!: Five research-backed steps to a pro-vaccination social media campaign: What can vaccine proponents, clinicians and public health communicators learn from "anti-vaxxers?" A lot, according to new guidance for pro-vaccination social media events written by University of Pittsburgh health scientists. The five-part guidelines, [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/44vwg8 | 06:25 |
| Brainstorm | New from EurekAlert!: 1 in 4 parents give youth sports low rankings for enforcement of COVID-19 guidelines: While the majority of parents give their child's sports organization high marks for communication about safety protocols, one in four rate their sports league as fair or poor for consistent enforcement of COVID-19 precautions, a new national poll finds. → https://is.gd/L9KRZO | 06:46 |
| Brainstorm | New from BBC Health: Covid-19: England gets third jab as Moderna rollout begins: It offers an alternative to the AstraZeneca jab for under-30s, after very rare blood clot concerns. → https://is.gd/OZoXke | 07:37 |
| Brainstorm | New from EuroNews: How a court ruling lays the ground for mandatory COVID-19 vaccination: A recent ruling by the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) has set a precedent that European countries could use to make COVID-19 vaccines compulsory. #BrusselsBureau → https://is.gd/3HtXkG | 08:19 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: India: COVID-19 pandemic ‘a long way from over’, says WHO chief → https://is.gd/ZMN4S2 | 08:51 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Daily Discussion Thread | April 13, 2021: Please refer to our Wiki for more information on COVID-19 and our sub. You can find answers to frequently asked questions in our FAQ , where there is valuable information such as our: → https://is.gd/Y7zeBn | 09:01 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express (Health): Health: From dry mouth to hearing loss: Some lesser-known COVID symptoms to watch out for → https://is.gd/5XcCX6 | 09:12 |
| DunceCotus | covered for covid | 09:42 |
| DunceCotus | home for the halides | 09:42 |
| Brainstorm | New from BBC Health: Covid: Over-45s invited to book vaccine: People over 45 can now book a Covid jab via the NHS website, as the vaccination programme enters a new phase. → https://is.gd/1qHpmX | 10:03 |
| DunceCotus | age-rationing: covid style | 10:04 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: CDC chief urges Michigan to 'close things down' amid spike: The director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention said Monday that Michigan should "close things down" to help address the country's worst coronavirus outbreak, days after Gov. Gretchen Whitmer instead urged people to voluntarily restrict certain activities. → https://is.gd/K0VpJK | 10:13 |
| DunceCotus | close all the things | 10:15 |
| mobidrop | how are the states that opened up doing in the US? | 10:16 |
| mobidrop | like Texas | 10:16 |
| DunceCotus | hilariously | 10:17 |
| DunceCotus | no, tbh I don't know. Don't follow what's happening in the US | 10:18 |
| DunceCotus | I used to. But those were in the dark days of pre-vid | 10:21 |
| Brainstorm | New from StatNews: PhRMA’s new message to Washington: Don’t take us for granted: EXCLUSIVE: The drug lobby has a new campaign that is, in part, a reminder of the work it has done on Covid — and also an unprecedented willingness to compromise… → https://is.gd/lHh7qW | 10:44 |
| DunceCotus | that's an odd way of writing pharma | 10:46 |
| mobidrop | lol big pharma | 10:52 |
| DunceCotus | big PhRMA | 10:53 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: Muslims open Ramadan with social distanced prayers, vaccines → https://is.gd/iCaD0R | 10:55 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Airborne plastic pollution ‘spiralling around the globe’, study finds → https://is.gd/E5lhhV | 11:36 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: Anger over Brazil’s rich trying to jump vaccine queue → https://is.gd/FLcms5 | 11:57 |
| Brainstorm | New from Virological.org: Latest posts: Issues with SARS-CoV-2 sequencing data: Updated analysis with data from 4 March 2021 Landen Gozashti 1 , Conor R. Walker 2,3 , Robert Lanfear 4 , Nick Goldman 2 , Nicola De Maio 2 and Russell Corbett-Detig 5 1 Department of Organismic & Evolutionary Biology and Museum of Comparative Zoology, Harvard University, [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/QMXP9A | 12:07 |
| Brainstorm | New from EMA: What's new: General: COVID-19: latest updates → https://is.gd/ejWHzQ | 12:17 |
| DunceCotus | covering the kids for covid | 12:21 |
| Brainstorm | New from EMA: What's new: Medicine: Human medicines European public assessment report (EPAR): Vaxzevria (previously COVID-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca), COVID-19 Vaccine (ChAdOx1-S [recombinant]), COVID-19 virus infection, Date of authorisation: 29/01/2021, Revision: 3, Status: Authorised → https://is.gd/rIyUV1 | 12:28 |
| Brainstorm | New from EMA: What's new: Document: Signal assessment report on embolic and thrombotic events (SMQ) with COVID-19 Vaccine (ChAdOx1-S [recombinant]) – Vaxzevria (previously COVID-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca) (Other viral vaccines) → https://is.gd/AkvsQy | 12:49 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Millions Flock To Hindu Festival Amid Coronavirus Spike → https://is.gd/vmtnWc | 13:09 |
| -RSSBot[LjLmatrix- Feed: Comunicato stampa del Consiglio dei Ministri n. 11 ( http://www.governo.it/it/articolo/comunicato-stampa-del-consiglio-dei-ministri-n-11/16601 ) | 13:15 | |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Kurds impose 10-day curfew in NE Syria amid coronavirus wave → https://is.gd/HxV61X | 13:20 |
| Brainstorm | New from StatNews: U.S. urges pause on use of Johnson & Johnson Covid-19 vaccine after rare blood clotting cases: Federal authorities are recommending states stop using Johnson & Johnson’s Covid-19 vaccine while an investigation is conducted into six rare but serious cases of clotting problems that were reported among… → https://is.gd/Wf0kyr | 13:31 |
| Brainstorm | New from WebMD: Breaking News: FDA Urges Pause of J&J COVID Vaccine: FDA said 6.8 million doses of the J&J vaccine have been administered and the agency is investigating six reported cases of a rare and severe blood clot occurring in patients who received the vaccine. → https://is.gd/m9wNvd | 13:41 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: COVID-19 has been much harder on those who already had anxiety and financial issues: The COVID-19 pandemic has resulted in massive shifts to seemingly every aspect of daily life. At the heart of these changes have been requirements to socially distance from others and stay at home. → https://is.gd/dcyX9b | 14:45 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Indian Express: World: Global Covid-19 wrap: UK meets target on jabs for over 50; Over lakh people vaccinated in Denmark in a day → https://is.gd/tH6Pex | 15:07 |
| Brainstorm | New from StatNews: Health: Researchers search for answers in puzzle of blood clots and Covid vaccines — and see some clues → https://is.gd/wCe5Vh | 15:18 |
| -RSSBot[LjLmatrix- Feed: Incontro del Presidente Draghi su energia e transizione ecologica ( http://www.governo.it/it/articolo/incontro-del-presidente-draghi-su-energia-e-transizione-ecologica/16602 ) | 15:20 | |
| Brainstorm | New from StatNews: STAT+: Pharmalittle: U.S. urges states to pause J&J Covid-19 shots; PhRMA’s new message says ‘Don’t take us for granted’: U.S. authorities recommended that states stop using the Johnson & Johnson Covid-19 vaccine while an investigation is conducted into six rare but serious cases of clotting problems in women. → https://is.gd/MU89dp | 15:28 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Will summer slow the spread of COVID-19? New research sheds light: At face value, it seems highly plausible that SARS-CoV-2—the virus that causes COVID-19—could behave seasonally, being more prevalent in winter and less so in summer. The four other coronaviruses that commonly circulate in humans behave in this way. We've [... want %more?] → https://is.gd/mvi1aC | 15:39 |
| Brainstorm | New from Derek Lowe: @angie_rasmussen: RT by @Dereklowe: For perspective, here are some numbers:1 in 1,000,000: J&J vaccine1 in 3,000: oral contraceptives1 in 5: hospitalized COVID-19 patientsAs someone who got the J&J vaccine 8 days ago, and who took oral contraceptives for 20 years, I’ll take these odds. → https://is.gd/5ge7Hm | 16:01 |
| Brainstorm | New from Politico: Communications: J&J delays European vaccine rollout over blood clotting concerns in US → https://is.gd/ZMJ2kO | 16:22 |
| pwr22 | Does anyone know if there's a difference in the spike protein that the mRNA and the astrazeneca vaccines target? | 16:47 |
| pwr22 | If not then why would we expect them to have differences with respect to whether certain strains resist them? | 16:48 |
| Haley[m] | prolly different "signatures" they target each | 16:48 |
| pwr22 | Do you mean subsets of spike protein? | 16:52 |
| pwr22 | My understanding of how these things work is that the virus vaccines literally have the spike, and the RNA get your sells to make the spike | 16:53 |
| Brainstorm | New from Derek Lowe: @kakape: RT by @Dereklowe: Is this a class effect, asks @HelenBranswell.“I hesitate to call it a class effect”, says Marks. “But I think it is plainly obvious to us already that what we're seeing with the Janssen vaccine looks very similar to what was being seen with the AstraZeneca vaccine." → https://is.gd/F8BoZH | 16:53 |
| pwr22 | but in either case it's up to your immune system to identify it as foreign, attack them and as part of that process produce anti-bodies and then propagate / remember the ones that actually bind the spike | 16:53 |
| pwr22 | So I would think that they probably all target a whole spike protein (since that's what we consider the distinguishing feature / the one we want to inhibit so they can't bind ACE2 and party on down in our lungs? | 16:54 |
| Brainstorm | New from ClinicalTrials.gov: (news): Safety and Efficacy of Hyperbaric Oxygen Therapy for Long COVID Syndrome → https://is.gd/45boQa | 17:04 |
| Brainstorm | New from ClinicalTrials.gov: (news): Effect of Hypertonic Saturated Saline Mouth Rinse on Covid-19 Virus in Vivo. → https://is.gd/Wbe7GG | 17:15 |
| rothandigo | Does anyone know what is actually causing the blood clots associated with the AZ and/or J&J vaccines? | 17:15 |
| pwr22 | <rothandigo "Does anyone know what is actuall"> My layman's understanding of the theory I've read about is that basically the vaccine causes you to make anti-bodies / immune system activation which binds to your own platelets which causes clotting to start and low platelets? I might be totally wrong and I also don't think we are actually sure of the mechanism yet | 17:19 |
| rothandigo | Thanks for the info. I finally managed to get the family to go get the vaccine this weekend (J&J) and then the story about blood clots breaks. | 17:32 |
| iz | yeah, from the percentages, it's not that big of a deal and might just be from other things (like birth control medicine) | 17:33 |
| iz | but just to be safe, they are pausing to check | 17:34 |
| rothandigo | Agreed. My wife is from Thailand and gets her news from what I can assume is a tabloid (I don't speak Thai that well). They lay the fear on pretty think though. Six cases in almost 7 million doses is pretty small. I guess it is better to be safe though. | 17:36 |
| Brainstorm | New from ClinicalTrials.gov: (news): Nebulized Heparin for COVID19-associated Acute Respiratory Failure → https://is.gd/ifFSGc | 17:37 |
| Brainstorm | New from WebMD: Newborns Won't Get COVID Through Infected Mom's Breast Milk: A new study offers more reassurance that mothers infected with SARS-CoV-2 can safely breastfeed their babies. → https://is.gd/BSw7Om | 17:47 |
| de-facto | .title https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0413-JJ-vaccine.html | 18:04 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From www.cdc.gov: Joint CDC and FDA Statement on Johnson & Johnson COVID-19 Vaccine | CDC Online Newsroom | CDC | 18:04 |
| de-facto | .title https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/joint-cdc-and-fda-statement-johnson-johnson-covid-19-vaccine | 18:05 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From www.fda.gov: Joint CDC and FDA Statement on Johnson & Johnson COVID-19 Vaccine | FDA | 18:05 |
| de-facto | pwr22, yes there are differences, namely the two artificial point mutations K986P, V987P on the Wuhan spike reference sequence contained in all three mRNA vaccines (BioNTech, Moderna, CureVac) but not contained in AstraZeneca | 18:07 |
| de-facto | they were developed by https://www.mclellanlab.org/lab-members | 18:09 |
| LjL | de-facto, you know, i looked in the logs yesterday, and didn't find that paper with the table again :( i'm dumb, i had already looked before, and eventually found it... that's when i should have added it to the page so i wouldn't have to search for it again. but aside from that table the paper didn't seem "key" so i didn't. still, a bookmark should be easy, i'm not very well organized | 18:11 |
| de-facto | the idea is to introduce two mutations that ensure the spike-glycoprotein produced by the mRNA recipe namely a proliine at position 986 and position 987 to stabilize it in the prefusion configuration, exactly as it would appear on the virion prior to fusion, hence provoke antibodies that would fit into that config | 18:11 |
| de-facto | LjL, have you read above, J&J seems to have similar issues to AZ | 18:12 |
| de-facto | i wonder if they also incude a tPA sequence or not | 18:13 |
| de-facto | they tested for it, but i did not understand which of their candidates became the final product | 18:13 |
| de-facto | i really wish publishing a full sequence of the vaccines would be mandatory | 18:14 |
| de-facto | so J&J is on pause until further notice i guess? | 18:16 |
| de-facto | at least in US | 18:16 |
| LjL | de-facto, yes, i'm aware about the J&J issues and suspension | 18:22 |
| LjL | de-facto, and Australia has said they aren't even going to get any of it, "too similar to AZ" | 18:23 |
| LjL | https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-04-13/johnson-johnson-covid-19-vaccine-australia/100064454 | 18:23 |
| de-facto | yup have read it | 18:26 |
| de-facto | idk imho they should investigate the cause of this and pronto | 18:27 |
| de-facto | we need any vaccines that are available, especially those that are temperature stable etc | 18:27 |
| de-facto | btw how many did receive sputnik yet? | 18:28 |
| de-facto | should we expect a signal from the potential assumption that it may be related to adenovirus vectors in general, or if there is absence of such a signal, can the difference give us a hint for the cause ? | 18:29 |
| de-facto | (idk if we even have enough and reliable enough data with sputnik) | 18:30 |
| de-facto | nor do we have the sequences for comparison | 18:30 |
| de-facto | grmbl | 18:30 |
| de-facto | why are they not published? for anyone that might do harm to the manufacturer by stealing it it would be EASY to reverse engineer it anyhow | 18:31 |
| bin_bash | welp i called it. J&J rollout being paused in the US :/ | 18:45 |
| DunceCotus | covid nineteen eighty four | 18:50 |
| Brainstorm | New from StatNews: STAT+: PhRMA chief talks strategy — and he’s surprisingly optimistic about drug pricing reform: The head of the drug industry lobbying powerhouse PhRMA has a bold prediction: Democrats might control Washington, but Covid-19 has given pharma the advantage in the debate over drug pricing. → https://is.gd/mqlc9R | 18:51 |
| DunceCotus | drug me up a cure some | 18:54 |
| DunceCotus | Ad AstraZenica | 19:00 |
| DunceCotus | covfefe cough fee | 19:01 |
| de-facto | Gesundheit! | 19:07 |
| DunceCotus | covid may be just the kick in the bum that biosciences needed | 19:10 |
| -RSSBot[LjLmatrix- Feed: Convocazione del Consiglio dei Ministri n. 12 ( http://www.governo.it/it/articolo/convocazione-del-consiglio-dei-ministri-n-12/16604 ) | 19:10 | |
| -RSSBot[LjLmatrix- Feed: Consiglio dei Ministri n. 12 ( http://www.governo.it/it/articolo/consiglio-dei-ministri-n-12/16605 ) | 19:10 | |
| DunceCotus | and will likely accelerate research into human genetic engineering | 19:10 |
| DunceCotus | perhaps this is simply the hubris of modernity | 19:11 |
| DunceCotus | but I think for all our bumbling, we are making some in-roads in having proper wield of knowledge | 19:11 |
| de-facto | yes indeed, it might be the start of a new age of medicine and bioproducts | 19:12 |
| DunceCotus | 50% more effective!* | 19:12 |
| DunceCotus | * from a starting 0.18% effectiveness | 19:12 |
| DunceCotus | de-facto: whenever products, commodities, profit, is involved, I bristle a bit | 19:13 |
| DunceCotus | particularly with respect to medicine | 19:13 |
| DunceCotus | what's really holding medicine back is the way our system is structured | 19:13 |
| de-facto | well yeah there is always the question: how profitable is a cure compared to a longterm treatment | 19:13 |
| DunceCotus | right | 19:14 |
| DunceCotus | cures are never profitable | 19:14 |
| de-facto | but on the other hand if developing an effective cure is the goal, it also could mean an edge over competitors on technology development | 19:14 |
| DunceCotus | for most diseases the goal is to 'manage the symptoms' | 19:14 |
| DunceCotus | this is in part due to profit but also due to limitations in theory (in part also due to profit) | 19:15 |
| de-facto | it depends, cancer for example is not infectious, so curing it might be very profitable | 19:15 |
| de-facto | making a pathogen extinct on the other hand... well if its not present then no cures are needed anymore | 19:15 |
| pwr22 | <rothandigo "Thanks for the info. I finally m"> Oh snap, I got the AZ vaccine on the morning when the news of the clots in Norway (I think?) broke in the afternoon | 19:16 |
| DunceCotus | de-facto: well there might be initial profit for a cancer cure, but once the cure is out there people are going to replicate the methods | 19:16 |
| DunceCotus | even if they have to do it garage style | 19:16 |
| DunceCotus | unless its like the Colonel's 11 secret herbs and spices | 19:17 |
| de-facto | its not that easy, cancer got much variability in its appearance | 19:17 |
| DunceCotus | a trade secret.. in the medical trade | 19:17 |
| pwr22 | de-facto: thanks very much for the in depth explanations. So the AZ vaccine would likely elicit antibodies that would bind with the spike protein after it's fused with an ACE2 receptor? | 19:17 |
| de-facto | well maybe but of what use would that be? | 19:17 |
| pwr22 | Yeah exactly, I mean I was thinking of "why is are the RNA changes made" | 19:18 |
| de-facto | the goal is to bind as many of the antibodies as possible to the prefusion configuration to prevent the fusion | 19:18 |
| DunceCotus | de-facto: its not that easy cause its not profitable to make it easy | 19:18 |
| pwr22 | And "can these somehow prevent the clottling" | 19:18 |
| de-facto | no idea if that is related, i dont think so | 19:18 |
| pwr22 | Like, does the post-fusion config look sufficiently like a platelet? | 19:19 |
| de-facto | hmm i dont think so | 19:19 |
| pwr22 | And also maybe for a full adenovirus with a spike then it's stable enough | 19:19 |
| de-facto | and afaik JJ might have the prefusion stabilization (not sure though) | 19:19 |
| pwr22 | but for freefloating spikes spat out from the RNA vaccines it might be less stable? | 19:19 |
| de-facto | it does not work like that | 19:20 |
| pwr22 | Oh? | 19:20 |
| DunceCotus | the pleomorphism of viruses and other micro-biota should be studied more | 19:20 |
| de-facto | think of the DNA plasmids in replication-deficient Adenovirus vectors or the mRNA inside the LipidNanoParticles as recipe, its the information, an instruction to tell a cell that gets "infected" with the vaccine to start producing the SARS-CoV-2 spike-glycoprotein | 19:21 |
| pwr22 | Ah, I thought the adenovirus didn't really replicate and the immune response was just down to the virons you get in the shot? | 19:22 |
| de-facto | so the antigen itself (the counterpart to the antibodies) is not present in the vaccine at all, rather the vaccine contains the instruction, like a computer code, how to produce the antigen | 19:22 |
| Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test): Tuesday 13 April 2021 Update: submitted by /u/HippolasCage to r/CoronavirusUK → https://is.gd/iAQpyL | 19:22 |
| de-facto | then the cell produces the antigen (the s-protein) and since its a membrane protein it will be exposed on the cellular surface (in a similar way as it might be presented on a virion surface) | 19:23 |
| pwr22 | Your immune system develops lots of potential antibodies itself after it see the pathogen right and then successful ones get promoted in terms of production? | 19:23 |
| de-facto | the immune system recognizes that and reacts to the presence of that "alien" antigen on the cells surface with producing antibodies and cellular immunity etc | 19:23 |
| pwr22 | *sees the antigens on the pathogen - I think maybe after it breaks it down? | 19:23 |
| de-facto | the more of those s-proteins are preserves in the "dangerous" prefusion configuration the better, because then antibodies would be produced to mitigate the unwanted effect: the fusion of virions with a cell (in case of later exposure to the real pathogen) | 19:24 |
| DunceCotus | the modern medical obsession with entropy is what is causing the great stagnation that lead us to the covid pandemic scare | 19:24 |
| pwr22 | Ah, so even the AZ virus doesn't actually have the spike added to it's surface, just the genetic material for it, I see | 19:24 |
| de-facto | pwr22, yes there are such self optimizing mechanisms in the germs centers, there are cells holding parts of the antigen and the best fitting antibodies to that somehow get promoted | 19:25 |
| de-facto | indeed the immune response answers with a whole variety of antibodies, some fit better others less well | 19:25 |
| pwr22 | de-facto: thanks for clearing that up, very interesting. I was misunderstanding how the viral vectors work | 19:26 |
| pwr22 | Kind of thought they worked the same way an attenuated virus would, that the antigens are already present on the virons in the solution | 19:26 |
| DunceCotus | feral fictors | 19:26 |
| de-facto | and that is a very important thing: think of the pathogen experiencing random mutations, some of which might have potential for evasion to the current "best binding" antibody: now maybe another antibody that did not bind do well before might be able to bind to the new and mutated version, hence *prevent* such a mutant from successful evasion | 19:27 |
| pwr22 | So yeah, that is interesting, I wonder why AZ didn't add the stabilisation | 19:27 |
| DunceCotus | clot-sure marketeering | 19:27 |
| de-facto | the initial contamination with the pathogen are only a few virions, hence probably all from the same "mutation" or "variant" | 19:28 |
| de-facto | but with ongoing replication in the body they spread into a variety of a phylogenetic tree, a quasispecies | 19:28 |
| de-facto | the longer the infection is ongoing the more that variety spreads | 19:28 |
| pwr22 | Yeah, makes sense | 19:29 |
| de-facto | hence its important that the immune system is able to always surround that spreading variability of the pathogens phylogenetic tree by a even greater variability of antibodies | 19:29 |
| de-facto | its like a feedback loop, a race condition, pathogen reproduction (hence also spread by mutation) versus immune reaction and replication inhibition | 19:30 |
| de-facto | anything that might give the immune system an edge in such an exponential race against time will be of great value, especially in the very early stages (e.g. directly after getting infected) the effects of any influence will be the most significant | 19:31 |
| de-facto | thats why they always say antivirals must be given as early as possible to have a significant effect | 19:32 |
| Brainstorm | New from Scientific American: How Could a COVID Vaccine Cause Blood Clots?: Researchers are searching for possible links between unusual clotting and the Oxford-AstraZeneca coronavirus vaccine -- Read more on ScientificAmerican.com → https://is.gd/jCYBmn | 19:32 |
| de-facto | pwr22, btw if you are interested the people that developed those two point mutations for prefusion stabilization developed 4 additional point mutations to make it even more efficient | 19:33 |
| de-facto | .title https://science.sciencemag.org/content/369/6510/1501 | 19:33 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From science.sciencemag.org: Structure-based design of prefusion-stabilized SARS-CoV-2 spikes | Science | 19:33 |
| pwr22 | nice | 19:34 |
| de-facto | cool thing is they make it possible to easily buy that DNA plasmid https://www.addgene.org/154754/ | 19:34 |
| de-facto | .title | 19:34 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From www.addgene.org: Addgene: SARS-CoV-2 S HexaPro | 19:34 |
| de-facto | Mutation: Ectodomain only (AAs 1-1208); 682-685 (furin site) replaced with 'GSAS'; F817P, A892P, A899P, A942P, K986P, V987P | 19:34 |
| de-facto | "SARS-CoV-2 S HexaPro was a gift from Jason McLellan (Addgene plasmid # 154754 ; http://n2t.net/addgene:154754 ; RRID:Addgene_154754)" | 19:35 |
| de-facto | isnt that cool? | 19:35 |
| * pwr22 goes to make his own vaccine based on a youtube video.... | 19:36 | |
| de-facto | actually there are people doing that | 19:36 |
| de-facto | with the antigen itself | 19:36 |
| de-facto | but without trials no approval, so its a gamble then | 19:37 |
| pwr22 | 😀 | 19:37 |
| pwr22 | Yeah, seems a bit sketchy | 19:37 |
| de-facto | actually its quite easy, one can just order the antigen (the s-protein) and mix it with an adjuvant then sniff it or such | 19:38 |
| de-facto | if thats effective? who knows | 19:38 |
| de-facto | if thats dangerous? if its "just" the antigen, maybe not a much as it could be with some more advanced technology such as viral vectors or mRNA or such | 19:39 |
| de-facto | .title https://radvac.org/white-paper/ | 19:40 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From radvac.org: White paper – RaDVaC | 19:40 |
| de-facto | to be honest i would rather want some with approval from proper trials | 19:40 |
| de-facto | but its an interesting paper from a scientific perspective, gives insights so thats pretty cool | 19:41 |
| pwr22 | Ah right, you can actually order the s-protein itself! I misunderstood you | 19:42 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: COVID-19 in our dust may help predict outbreaks, study finds: A study done in rooms where COVID-19 patients were isolated shows that the virus's RNA—part of the genetic material inside a virus—can persist up to a month in dust. → https://is.gd/JgLn9B | 19:43 |
| pwr22 | I got some lateral flow tests from the NHS the otherday | 19:43 |
| pwr22 | They are trying to get everyone to test themselves twice a week and submit the results | 19:43 |
| de-facto | that would be very helpful if it was done on a widespread enough basis | 19:44 |
| pwr22 | I thought lateral flow stuff was some sort of breath testing, but this kit still requires swabbing, transfer to a buffer and then popping it onto a little test strip thing | 19:45 |
| pwr22 | It's almost impossible to swab my own tonsils | 19:45 |
| pwr22 | Without hitting my tongue I mean | 19:45 |
| de-facto | lateral flow is in the surface of that test strip there | 19:45 |
| pwr22 | It doesn't really go low enough whatever I do | 19:46 |
| pwr22 | Ah ok | 19:46 |
| de-facto | it "soaks" the liquid through the strip | 19:46 |
| de-facto | then binds antibodies to potential antigens and marks the stripes accordingly | 19:47 |
| de-facto | .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvXCISbrK9Q | 19:49 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From www.youtube.com: Prima di continuare su YouTube | 19:49 |
| de-facto | whut? | 19:49 |
| de-facto | ah italian disclaimer for Brainstorm lol | 19:50 |
| de-facto | youtube gets more and more annoying with time | 19:50 |
| de-facto | "My at-home SARS-CoV-2 antibody test result" by Vincent Racaniello | 19:50 |
| de-facto | at first he explains antibody test and then antigen test | 19:50 |
| de-facto | (antibody = immunity, antigen = virus= | 19:51 |
| de-facto | *(antibody = immunity, antigen = virus) | 19:51 |
| DunceCotus | antiGENE | 19:53 |
| de-facto | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antigen | 19:56 |
| de-facto | btw fun fact: temperaturer range is very important for such lateral flow tests | 19:59 |
| de-facto | to for an accurate test result the test MUST be done in an environment with accurate temperature range (according to its specifications) | 19:59 |
| de-facto | it has to do with the molecular binding and diffusion etc | 20:00 |
| pwr22 | Yeah youtube now stops my matrix servers previews from working | 20:00 |
| de-facto | yay | 20:00 |
| pwr22 | I think it said it has to be > 15 degrees and less than 30 or something | 20:00 |
| pwr22 | And that you need to let it warm up for 30 mins if it hasn't been stored in such a temp | 20:01 |
| Brainstorm | New from BBC Health: (news): Covid-19: US agencies call for pause in Johnson & Johnson vaccine → https://is.gd/k9hVGr | 20:04 |
| de-facto | yes it probably varies for each type of such a test (the exact specs for which it is certified), but its VERY important that the correct temp range is ensured | 20:04 |
| de-facto | without ensuring the correct reaction temp the test becomes unreliable | 20:05 |
| Brainstorm | New from WebMD: White House to Lift Restrictions on Abortion Pill Access: The American College of Obstetrics and Gynecologists has said the in-person requirement is medically unnecessary and puts patients and medical staff at risk during the pandemic. → https://is.gd/v1JYS3 | 20:15 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Canada waiting on J&J jabs despite US pause, first AstraZeneca clot found: Canada continues to expect its first shipment of Johnson & Johnson COVID-19 vaccines at month's end despite US and EU pauses over blood clot fears, officials said Tuesday, while also announcing a first Canadian clotting case linked to the AstraZeneca jab. → https://is.gd/X672Hh | 21:07 |
| finely[m] | No one is safe until everyone is safe. Long form journalism on why the worlds vaccine response gas been such a disaster: | 21:13 |
| finely[m] | https://newrepublic.com/article/162000/bill-gates-impeded-global-access-covid-vaccines | 21:13 |
| finely[m] | * No one is safe until everyone is safe. Long form journalism on why the worlds vaccine response has been such a disaster: | 21:14 |
| finely[m] | https://newrepublic.com/article/162000/bill-gates-impeded-global-access-covid-vaccines | 21:14 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: South Africa halts J&J vaccine jabs; Europe rollout delayed: South Africa suspended giving Johnson & Johnson vaccine shots Tuesday as a "precautionary measure" and the company delayed its European vaccine rollout following an FDA decision to pause the jabs while very rare blood clot cases are examined. → https://is.gd/Sehp7o | 21:18 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Dutch govt says it's too early to start easing the lockdown: The Dutch government on Tuesday presented a roadmap for relaxing coronavirus lockdown measures, but caretaker Prime Minister Mark Rutte stressed that it is still too early to ease restrictions. → https://is.gd/wa9EY5 | 21:28 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: US pauses J&J vaccine in blow to global immunization drive: US health authorities on Tuesday recommended pausing the Johnson & Johnson COVID shot over blood clot fears, with the company quickly announcing it would delay its European rollout, in a setback for global immunization campaigns. → https://is.gd/UbPVOR | 21:39 |
| Brainstorm | New from Politico: J&J vaccine suspension in US raises fears it’s the next AstraZeneca: So far, no EU countries said they would not use the vaccine — even if the company itself said it would pause the rollout. → https://is.gd/t2bAGu | 22:00 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: EXPLAINER: What's known about COVID vaccines and rare clots: A rare, rogue immune response is the main suspect as authorities investigate highly unusual blood clots following use of two similar COVID-19 vaccines from Johnson & Johnson and AstraZeneca. → https://is.gd/L5cOne | 22:10 |
| finely[m] | As I had assumed, the mRNA technology that underlies a number of vaccines was entirely public funded. The US government holds the patents. Publicly funded scientific research should be licenced without cost to any company. What we really need is a analogue of the GPL (for software) in patent law - if your technology uses an open licensed patent, then your technology becomes open licensed. | 22:32 |
| finely[m] | https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/21/world/vaccine-patents-us-eu.html?searchResultPosition=1 | 22:32 |
| de-facto | yes and mRNA printing machines on a distributed basis, that way new vaccine variants could be distributed in parallel very quickly | 22:36 |
| de-facto | .title https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-tesla-idUSKBN243168 | 22:39 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From www.reuters.com: Tesla to make molecule printers for German COVID-19 vaccine developer CureVac | Reuters | 22:39 |
| finely[m] | It looks likely that variants will requires to get a vaccine booster shot like the annual flu vaccine. mRNA seems like the technology we need for that to happen; especially with adenovirus based vaccines seeming to cause rare clotting disorders. | 22:41 |
| de-facto | .title https://www.tesmanian.com/blogs/tesmanian-blog/tesla-and-curevac-create-printer-to-produce-covid-19-vaccines-and-customized-drugs-for-diseases-such-as-cancer | 22:41 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From www.tesmanian.com: Tesla & CureVac Create Printer for COVID-19 Vaccines & Customized Drug | 22:41 |
| finely[m] | * It looks likely that variants will require us to get a vaccine booster shot like the annual flu vaccine. mRNA seems like the technology we need for that to happen; especially with adenovirus based vaccines seeming to cause rare clotting disorders. | 22:41 |
| de-facto | just imagine every pharmacy would have such a device or at least some in a city | 22:41 |
| de-facto | then order your meds on a website and get an email when its ready for usage ... a pipe dream? | 22:42 |
| finely[m] | It could easily happen. History hasnt been kind to the dreams of those wanting universal access to health care though. | 22:45 |
| de-facto | i think an innovative idea that may give a huge benefit to a majority can develop quite some momentum | 22:56 |
| finely[m] | Not if the monopolies and their professional propagandists gave anything to do with it. | 23:02 |
| finely[m] | * Not if the monopolies and their professional propagandists have anything to do with it. | 23:07 |
| de-facto | well or: if its possible and really a new technology, then those that refuse to implement it... will not the ones that make profit with it | 23:08 |
| finely[m] | But all the drugs will be encumbered by patents. I guess I could see a dystopian future were individuals are able to pirate drugs on their homebrew printers. | 23:14 |
| Brainstorm | New from Medical Xpress: Rare COVID-19 complication is putting kids in ICU: When Michelle Elkhoury's 4-year-old daughter spiked a low-grade fever in mid-March, she didn't panic. → https://is.gd/wlcSVd | 23:14 |
| de-facto | finely[m], well maybe not if individualized therapies will be a thing, a company gets send a sequence together with a diagnostic and then would offer to provide a unique treatment sequence for that individual case, that bought and printed out would only treat this one individual case in an optimal way | 23:18 |
| diofantoz | blod clots with the janssen vaccine | 23:31 |
| diofantoz | is it the same adjuvant? | 23:32 |
| diofantoz | as AZ | 23:33 |
| diofantoz | 0,00000344 or 3,4 in 10 millions | 23:38 |
| de-facto | no adjuvant in neither | 23:39 |
| diofantoz | AZ uses a chimpanzee adenovirus, johnson human | 23:41 |
| de-facto | https://www.janssenmd.com/janssen-covid19-vaccine/product-properties/ingredients/janssen-covid19-vaccine-ingredientsformulation | 23:42 |
| diofantoz | somewhat similar genetic makeup, if it matters | 23:42 |
| de-facto | Ad26.COV2.S (5 x 10^10 virus particles); Sodium chloride (2.19 mg); Citric acid monohydrate (0.14 mg); Trisodium Citrate Dihydrate (2.02 mg); Polysorbate 80 (0.16 mg); 2-hydroxypropyl-β-cyclodextrin (25.50 mg); Ethanol | 23:43 |
| de-facto | for Johnson&Johnson/Janssen | 23:43 |
| de-facto | Ad26.COV2.S (5 x 10^10 virus particles); Sodium chloride (2.19 mg); Citric acid monohydrate (0.14 mg); Trisodium Citrate Dihydrate (2.02 mg); Polysorbate 80 (0.16 mg); 2-hydroxypropyl-β-cyclodextrin (25.50 mg); Ethanol (2.04 mg) | 23:44 |
| de-facto | i cant see any adjuvant in there | 23:44 |
| de-facto | AstraZeneca https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/regulatory-approval-of-covid-19-vaccine-astrazeneca/information-for-uk-recipients-on-covid-19-vaccine-astrazeneca#what-covid-19-vaccine-astrazeneca-contains | 23:48 |
| de-facto | (ChAdOx1-S* recombinant) 5 × 10^10 viral particles; L-histidine; L-histidine hydrochloride monohydrate; magnesium chloride hexahydrate; polysorbate 80; ethanol; sucrose; sodium chloride; disodium edetate dihydrate; water for injections | 23:48 |
| de-facto | no adjuvant either | 23:48 |
| de-facto | as you said Ad26.COV2.S is a human adenovirus vector and ChAdOx1-S is a chimpanzee adenovirus vector, both replication deficient | 23:50 |
| de-facto | hence i want to compare the sequences of the DNA part containing the s-protein recipe | 23:51 |
| diofantoz | they have the gene for production of the spike protein | 23:51 |
| de-facto | i think AZ uses Wuhan style and JJJ uses Wuhan style with two point mutations stabilizing it in prefusion config | 23:51 |
| de-facto | (not sure though since i have not seen their sequences) | 23:52 |
| de-facto | AZ uses tPA sequence before it, JJJ not sure, maybe | 23:52 |
| diofantoz | nothing of the additives seem to suggest it being the cause | 23:53 |
| finely[m] | <de-facto "finely, well maybe not if indivi"> Why does it need to be a company if almost all basic science research is publicly funded? Why not an NGO? Why should we pay for anything above the cost of inputs and amortised machine manufacture/maintenance? | 23:53 |
| diofantoz | salt and ethanol are the two common ones from what i can see | 23:53 |
| diofantoz | but perhaps some reaction? | 23:54 |
| diofantoz | some ions are the same | 23:54 |
| de-facto | yeah but those are just for conservation and such things, nothing fancy | 23:55 |
| diofantoz | otherwise i suppose it's the inactive virus that is the cause | 23:55 |
| de-facto | its not inactive at all | 23:55 |
| de-facto | its alive and infectious | 23:55 |
| diofantoz | well | 23:55 |
| de-facto | well "alive" as in functional | 23:56 |
| diofantoz | the 'mild' virus | 23:56 |
| de-facto | but it cant replicate because they stole some essential parts of it | 23:56 |
| de-facto | hence it is a replication-deficient viral vector, a transport vehicle that can infect cells and make them produce stuff, but not copies of itself | 23:57 |
| de-facto | its grown in special cell lines that got implanted that essential thing they stole from the virus, so the virus only can replicate in those cell lines | 23:57 |
| diofantoz | my point is that the immune response must be individial then | 23:57 |
| de-facto | they grow it in big tanks 2k liters or such in those cell lines, then harvest it and purify it | 23:58 |
| diofantoz | but one thing seems to be in common, that the cases seems to be females | 23:58 |
| diofantoz | mostly? | 23:58 |
| de-facto | younger females are more likely to develop autoimmune conditions afaik | 23:58 |
| diofantoz | really? | 23:59 |
| de-facto | i think so yes | 23:59 |
| de-facto | younger as in not elderly | 23:59 |
| diofantoz | is this an autoimmune condition? | 23:59 |
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