| UsL | and https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=914897 | 00:07 |
|---|---|---|
| UsL | the audacity of julien there makes me want to punch him in the face. | 00:08 |
| UsL | disclaimer: that opinion is my own and does not reflect the devuan project in anyway. | 00:08 |
| xrogaan | Why is the merge necessary? I don't understand. | 00:15 |
| gnu_srs | xrogaan: This is forced upon us by the companies promoting that stuff. Make your pick of which companies ... | 00:59 |
| xrogaan | ibm? | 01:00 |
| golinux | It is a way to consolidate power and make options more difficult. | 01:00 |
| golinux | IOW more monolithic core structure. | 01:01 |
| mason | bgstack15: The trick is that it's going to involve a large number of packages. Sticking with Debian as upstream, it'll be effectively impossible to not follow them into UsrMerge. | 01:48 |
| mason | I'm still trying to make up my mind about it. It's a foolish annoyance, but it's less obnoxious than systemd or dbus. | 01:51 |
| mason | It comes with some breakage. | 01:51 |
| bgstack15 | I don't see a great reason for it, but I guess I don't see a great reason against it, other than, "Why break stuff?" | 01:59 |
| mason | That's pretty much it. It's arbitrary and it breaks things. | 02:01 |
| mason | bgstack15: Here's the dpkg maintainer's set of notes: https://wiki.debian.org/Teams/Dpkg/MergedUsr | 02:01 |
| mason | He's not happy with it. | 02:02 |
| mason | But yeah, it's not terrible in and of itself given that Linux systems no longer offer a statically-linked small root to build from, but it *is* change for change's sake. | 02:02 |
| mason | And it breaks things. | 02:02 |
| bgstack15 | And so what, the Technical Committee has already decreed that it shall be? | 02:03 |
| bgstack15 | Is there a way for the Debian community to ask for a change of the plan? | 02:03 |
| mason | bgstack15: A GR would be the only option at this point. | 02:08 |
| bgstack15 | Has there ever been a GR that was successful in changing the plan that the TC made? | 02:08 |
| mason | Good question. | 02:08 |
| mason | bgstack15: The full list of GRs and outcomes is here: https://www.debian.org/vote/ | 02:10 |
| mason | I think the closest they've come to it, after a perusal, was limiting CTTE terms hot on the heels of the 2014 fiasco. | 02:13 |
| golinux | Not with the last 3 that I've experienced. As with most elections it is a fig leaf of imaginary choice. | 02:13 |
| mason | It's appropriate that their example uses inverted pentagrams here, because the method is devilishly nonobvious: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schulze_method | 02:21 |
| xrogaan | Where can we review the discussion made by the TC? | 02:46 |
| golinux | xrogaan: https://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?t=120652&p=570371 | 02:52 |
| golinux | Combatting revisionist history | 02:52 |
| golinux | Mind blowing analysis. | 02:52 |
| xrogaan | for the usrmerge stuff, I mean. | 02:54 |
| xrogaan | I wanna know if the technical commity is a public exchange or behind closed door. | 02:54 |
| mason | xrogaan: There are discussions in a couple bugs. Let me find 'em. | 03:04 |
| mason | xrogaan: https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=914897 with a decision announced here: https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2019/03/msg00001.html | 03:07 |
| xrogaan | mason: ha, that one was linked earlier. | 03:10 |
| xrogaan | so it's systemd driven nonsense. | 03:12 |
| mason | xrogaan: This might be my tinfoil hat speaking, but it's more or less the same people. Don't fall into the trap of thinking they're going to limit themselves to systemd. | 03:13 |
| xrogaan | it's written publicly: https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/TheCaseForTheUsrMerge/ | 03:15 |
| xrogaan | > By making the same change in Linux we minimize the difference towards the primary Unix implementation, thus easing portability from Solaris. | 03:15 |
| xrogaan | (anybody gives a damn about solaris?) | 03:15 |
| mason | xrogaan: I do sort of, but what's funny there is that Solaris maintained the distinct /sbin. | 03:16 |
| mason | anyway | 03:17 |
| fsmithred | someone is playing the long game. Death by a thousand cuts. | 04:12 |
| Xenguy | Avoid bleeding | 04:13 |
| fsmithred | well yeah, first rule of kung fu is "Don't get hit." | 04:13 |
| Xenguy | Don't be there, hahah | 04:14 |
| Guest1 | why not merge efforts with debian to provide non-systemd packages for it? | 15:43 |
| brocashelm | what development could be made in devuan for foreign languages like japanese or spanish? besides documentation and translation? | 15:57 |
| rrq | well, on could remove the word "foreign" | 15:59 |
| brocashelm | yeah. ok | 16:01 |
| gnu_srs | Guest1: Unfortunately, Debian is very reluctant to cooperate with Devuan :( | 16:27 |
| brocashelm | it would be very suspect if they did | 16:30 |
| brocashelm | i think devuan's purpose transcends the systemd problem. people have lost faith in these corporations | 16:32 |
| yeti | sysvinit? NIH! eeeeeh wait... | 16:56 |
| yeti | :-Þ | 16:56 |
| yeti | lets boost systemd's success! until it becomes an own linux flavour and diverges from the right way enough to be seen as a totally different thing (like android) | 16:57 |
| yeti | then we might have peace again | 16:58 |
| brocashelm | gnu/linux -> gnome/systemd | 16:58 |
| brocashelm | it's perfect | 16:58 |
| Guest1 | i don't hate systemd so much, but i don't understand why debian is refusing contribution for init diversity | 17:02 |
| yeti | I won't even touch systemd with my hate! | 17:03 |
| yeti | it just is no what I want to run. | 17:04 |
| brocashelm | systemd is just really badly designed and making it mandatory was the tipping point | 17:05 |
| yeti | systemd, now usrmerge, ... what's next? complete mono userland to run everywhere? | 17:07 |
| yeti | APTstore? | 17:08 |
| yeti | :-Þ | 17:08 |
| brocashelm | maybe killing x11 for good and enforcing wayland | 17:09 |
| yeti | eeeek | 17:11 |
| yeti | please name it weyland! | 17:11 |
| bgstack15 | weighland | 17:18 |
| yeti | weyland yutani! | 17:19 |
| Guest1 | killing x11 in favor of arcan is a good idea | 17:19 |
| * CVE-2021-33910 yawns | 17:40 | |
| CVE-2021-33910 | Is systemd there, yet? | 17:40 |
| Beer | Stop trolling, please. | 17:40 |
| fsmithred | yeti, next is ethnic cleansing at the debian forum | 17:41 |
| brocashelm | i liked this review from dw: "Since Debian took up systemd the whole distro gets more and more like windows: increasingly intransparent, things happen in the background without user control, things break without good error logs, the system gets more and more nondeterministic. My change to Devuan is probably unavoidable." | 17:45 |
| brocashelm | so, it's always good to promote devuan whenever/wherever possible in places where debian/ubuntu users congregate | 17:45 |
| yeti | fsmithred: sent a crawler over FDN? | 17:46 |
| fsmithred | ? | 17:47 |
| yeti | if you miss stuff from the forum, mirrot it yourself? | 17:47 |
| fsmithred | oh, yeah | 17:47 |
| yeti | I wouldnt even know what to preserve | 17:48 |
| fsmithred | I was talking about members not posts, but yeah, I already thought of mirroring the site. | 17:48 |
| fsmithred | all of it is easiest | 17:48 |
| yeti | I just won't miss it if it would fade away | 17:48 |
| fsmithred | I already did it for debianuserforums.org before it closed and also the refracta forum before I closed it. | 17:48 |
| fsmithred | I use fdn like a wiki. Lots of good info there. | 17:49 |
| Beer | What's FDN? | 17:49 |
| fsmithred | forums.debian.net | 17:49 |
| fsmithred | THE debian forum | 17:50 |
| Beer | OK didn't know the acronym | 17:50 |
| Beer | thx | 17:50 |
| fsmithred | which used to be community-run but is not run by debian devs | 17:50 |
| fsmithred | not/now | 17:50 |
| brocashelm | THE debian forum seems pretty dead these days as it is | 17:50 |
| fsmithred | ? | 17:50 |
| brocashelm | i don't see a whole lot of activity | 17:50 |
| Beer | Well, as long as it's not systemd devs | 17:50 |
| Beer | (yet) | 17:51 |
| brocashelm | so maybe the population control already took its place | 17:51 |
| brocashelm | and few survivors are left | 17:51 |
| yeti | I just checked that my account still is alive... and probably that will be all my visits for this year | 17:51 |
| brocashelm | forums in general are dead/dying though | 17:52 |
| yeti | big ones | 17:52 |
| yeti | smaller ones from niche projects or niche topics still do well | 17:52 |
| brocashelm | hardly a big forum that hasn't already been sold out to a third party or something that continues to draw organic traffic | 17:52 |
| brocashelm | true | 17:52 |
| yeti | ppl arent adult enough to use wikis as forums :-/ | 17:53 |
| yeti | and high traffic forums end with lots of threads full of repeating arguments | 17:54 |
| yeti | because noone reads all posts | 17:54 |
| brocashelm | and social media styled exchanges | 17:54 |
| brocashelm | everyone wants a mobile theme | 17:54 |
| yeti | there should be a distilling process... a wiki page followed by posts that after consesus stabilises get worked into the top page | 17:55 |
| yeti | a wiki/forum hybrd | 17:55 |
| yeti | and all the competition with other blingbling services only fragments the communities | 17:56 |
| brocashelm | i prefer they are separated, but would nonetheless be interested in contributing to the wiki | 17:56 |
| yeti | life was easier when we only had email and usenet | 17:57 |
| yeti | :-Þ | 17:57 |
| Beer | #OKBoomer? | 17:57 |
| yeti | I wont comment on gender, age and body measures | 17:58 |
| Beer | I've started to read people getting called "StackOverflow generation" when they were requestion hand-on configurations. That's new to me | 17:58 |
| Beer | requesting* | 17:58 |
| Beer | Ever heard/read it before? | 17:58 |
| yeti | I left that hell | 17:58 |
| brocashelm | centralization is a bad thing | 17:58 |
| yeti | the voting system killed what SO was thought to be | 17:59 |
| yeti | or could have been? | 18:00 |
| yeti | when DDGing or stuff and stumbling over SO answers, I'm often shocked by the lack of quality | 18:01 |
| yeti | maybe the search engines tend to pick the worst ones? | 18:01 |
| Beer | As in any search, the searching tool results only reflects the user's savviness | 18:03 |
| Beer | Said otherwise: searching is hard, finding an answer requires the good keywords, and pivoting around synonyms... | 18:04 |
| Beer | THere are good answers on StackExchange as a whole... and there are crap ones | 18:04 |
| golinux | Why was all this drivel on #devian-dev? | 18:48 |
| golinux | #devuan-dev really | 18:49 |
| bgstack15 | This is still on-topic enough for this room. | 19:24 |
| bgstack15 | I have always preferred the look and feel of phpbb-type forums, rather than the Discourse stuff that does weird infinite scrolling and two-pane forum navigation pages. | 19:25 |
| brocashelm | same | 19:25 |
| brocashelm | i'm still interested in proposing the wiki subject soon | 19:27 |
| brocashelm | my idea is just have it installed somewhere where only we can access it, start "planting" articles, and then make it look nice with the deepsea theme before going live | 19:28 |
| golinux | We host all own own services | 19:31 |
| brocashelm | devuan has the upper hand in convincing more people to switch over from debian/ubuntu/mint, and a quality wiki would help that out. i'm more into that and doing the theme/icons than maintaining packages or getting into the really technical aspects of command lines | 19:31 |
| golinux | First we have to decide on a wiki. That's been stalled since last year. | 19:32 |
| golinux | Then set up so we can play with and test it and explore features. | 19:33 |
| brocashelm | i think we should have some sort of a vote on different areas like preferred software, layout, basic stuff to cover (and since devuan is not a rolling release distro, this is especially important as we have to consider people still on ascii for example), etc. | 19:33 |
| brocashelm | i like mediawiki the best, but some other wiki software could also work. we did discuss this last weekend | 19:34 |
| golinux | We've been discussing for years. | 19:34 |
| brocashelm | it just has to look very attractive and appealing to someone who's not very experienced with debian or gnu/linux. making it more user-friendly but without dumbing things down. articles with clearly written instructions that are easily accessible | 19:34 |
| golinux | Sounds good. | 19:35 |
| brocashelm | i think at some point, we just have to give it a shot and start working on the project | 19:35 |
| golinux | Aye . . . there's the rub . . . | 19:35 |
| golinux | Show us the wiki! :) | 19:36 |
| brocashelm | discussing things is good, but it shouldn't be stalled (and for years). it doesn't even have to be "perfect". if it only has 15 articles, at least make those articles easy to understand and offer all possible troubleshooting tips | 19:37 |
| brocashelm | plus, something exclusive like the refracta tools would be perfect for users to link back to | 19:37 |
| golinux | Setting up the backend permissions could be challenging | 19:37 |
| golinux | Will require some finesse | 19:38 |
| brocashelm | all the tips and tricks to getting the most out of refracta2usb, refractainstaller, and refractasnapshot for those who are interested in making their own operating systems based on devuan | 19:39 |
| brocashelm | yes, but it will be worth it if we can actively collaborate | 19:39 |
| brocashelm | even just 2-3 people collaborating is better than discussing for years and putting it off | 19:39 |
| brocashelm | development will be slow, but it will turn out to be something worthwhile once it's all nicely arranged | 19:40 |
| * golinux is experiencing deja vu | 19:42 | |
| yeti | look into fossil as wiki? being able to clone/run it locally may even be a selling point for not always online info keeping | 19:42 |
| golinux | Maybe y'all will have it figured out by the time I've had b'fast! | 19:43 |
| yeti | more like b'fast in a year :-P | 19:44 |
| yeti | dont hurry too much | 19:44 |
| brocashelm | and also things like categories to use (such as "free software", "non-free software", "desktop environments", "xfce", "image editors", "multimedia software", "dvd rippers", "software using gtk", "software using qt", etc.) | 19:45 |
| brocashelm | those can all be refined later on, but would make for very useful tagging | 19:45 |
| brocashelm | and i like the debian way of organizing software based on their licensing (free vs. non-free vs. contrib) | 19:46 |
| brocashelm | so the wiki should follow suit | 19:46 |
| brocashelm | the only thing i wonder is how to write articles for those using current oldstable. maybe with a focus on current stable and highlighted notes for other supported branches if specific? | 19:48 |
| brocashelm | some articles on how to upgrade between two lts releases (such as ascii->beowulf or beowulf->chimaera). they can be very simple and only highlight specific issues and other things to watch for. for articles about a particular lts release that is no longer current stable, a link to an article showing how to upgrade from old stable to current stable | 19:51 |
| fsmithred | howtos for ascii can be found in the forum. | 20:17 |
| fsmithred | the plan has been to harvest some of them for the wiki | 20:17 |
| brocashelm | yeah, i can go along with the reposting plus polishing up to wiki format | 20:24 |
| darkeye | hi, | 20:52 |
| darkeye | I've installed sway | 20:52 |
| fsmithred | I sway installs. | 20:53 |
| darkeye | but it doesnt show up in slim | 20:53 |
| fsmithred | it's a window manager? | 20:53 |
| darkeye | right | 20:54 |
| fsmithred | I'll see if I can figure out how slim does that. | 20:54 |
| darkeye | I'm on devuan testing | 20:55 |
| fsmithred | maybe you could manually add it to the sessions line in slim.conf | 20:56 |
| fsmithred | I see others listed there. Maybe sway didn't make it to that list. | 20:57 |
| fsmithred | do I need to be running wayland for this? | 20:59 |
| fsmithred | for sway | 20:59 |
| fsmithred | I just fired up a chimaera VM | 20:59 |
| darkeye | yes | 20:59 |
| fsmithred | that's probably not going to happen in the next two minutes | 21:00 |
| fsmithred | lol | 21:00 |
| fsmithred | how is it? (wayland) | 21:00 |
| darkeye | BTW swaylock is missing | 21:03 |
| fsmithred | apt sees it | 21:06 |
| darkeye | no | 21:06 |
| fsmithred | I see /usr/bin/sway | 21:07 |
| fsmithred | I guess startx doesn't do anything. | 21:07 |
| fsmithred | is there a startwayland command? | 21:07 |
| darkeye | I don't know | 21:07 |
| darkeye | I just wanna try sway | 21:08 |
| fsmithred | I'm running a live-iso in a VM. Just installed sway, but don't have wayland. Just some libs. | 21:09 |
| fsmithred | startx /usr/bin/sway brings it up, but I have no idea how to control it. | 21:10 |
| fsmithred | there's a bar or panel at the top with time/date and maybe a pager that shows a single desktop | 21:11 |
| darkeye | alt + enter will fire the terminal | 21:11 |
| fsmithred | not happening | 21:11 |
| darkeye | super + enter | 21:11 |
| fsmithred | that worked | 21:12 |
| darkeye | check ~/.config/sway/config | 21:13 |
| fsmithred | no sway dir | 21:13 |
| fsmithred | I got error message in terminal: no configuration found, using defaults | 21:13 |
| fsmithred | ewww. backspace doesn't work | 21:14 |
| fsmithred | this is probably qemu weirdness | 21:14 |
| darkeye | to quit super + shift + e | 21:15 |
| fsmithred | there is /etc/sway/config | 21:15 |
| darkeye | that's it | 21:16 |
| fsmithred | it's pretty long | 21:16 |
| darkeye | it has the command and the keybindig | 21:17 |
| darkeye | and some configuration | 21:17 |
| fsmithred | yup. | 21:17 |
| fsmithred | lots of controls are set here. | 21:17 |
| fsmithred | so anyway, I'm running it under X, not wayland | 21:17 |
| fsmithred | and slim did not see it | 21:18 |
| fsmithred | I had to drop to console and use startx | 21:18 |
| fsmithred | oh yeah | 21:18 |
| fsmithred | slim.conf | 21:18 |
| darkeye | I've added wayland-sessions to slim | 21:19 |
| fsmithred | does it show up? | 21:19 |
| darkeye | but I dont know if it works or not | 21:19 |
| darkeye | I'll try now | 21:19 |
| darkeye | It doesnt work with slim | 21:36 |
| darkeye | it works with shell | 21:36 |
| darkeye | CTRL + ALT + F2 | 21:36 |
| fsmithred | I have it working with slim | 21:37 |
| fsmithred | https://termbin.com/wwhm <- /usr/share/xsessions/slim.desktop | 21:38 |
| fsmithred | if that doesn't work, look at /etc/sway/config.d/50-systemd-user.conf | 21:38 |
| fsmithred | might be some hints in there | 21:39 |
| fsmithred | note that you need to press F1 multiple times in slim. It toggles the choices. | 21:39 |
| darkeye | it's not stable at all with slim | 21:51 |
| fsmithred | chimaera minimal-live alpha isos are up. https://files.devuan.org/devuan_chimaera/minimal-live/ I don't see them on any iso mirrors yet. | 22:45 |
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