libera/##covid-19/ Friday, 2021-08-13

pwr22	It's like anti-biotic resistant, if you just "half-treat" the pathogen you are giving natural selection the optimal environment to combat whatever you current treatment is!	00:00
pwr22	*your	00:00
lastshell	the virus hopefully mutate like the spanish flu	00:01
lastshell	less lethal	00:01
pwr22	Yeah I hope so too but I think the time frame for that sort of thing happening is historically 4+ years	00:03
pwr22	And we don't know what all this evolutionary pressure from vaccines and modern medical interventions, especially in people with depleted immune systems whose bodies profile a fertile ground for evolution with long lived covid infections, are going to do	00:04
pwr22	I also hope we take some learnings from this pandemic because we're probably gonna see a novel flu again in the next 100 years	00:05
pwr22	We have already avian/swine scares like we have with coronaviruses (sars, mers et al.)	00:06
pwr22	Its probably just a matter of time	00:06
himesama	adn the strategic ppi stockpile was allowed to rot --- 15:06 <pwr22> We have already avian/swine scares like we have with coronaviruses (sars, mers et al.)	00:07
pwr22	Oh dera	00:08
himesama	if another pandemic occurs right now humanity is kind of in trouble	00:08
himesama	but indeed perhaps some lessons will be learned	00:09
himesama	there is a saying in the us that the us always does the right thing (after trying everything else first) though	00:09
himesama	if only politics could be separated out	00:10
dTal	shit, the internet broke	02:13
lunatunes	Whoa	04:15
joerg	moin	12:22
joerg	Brainstorm: status	12:29
joerg	%help	12:29
Brainstorm	joerg: Hi, I am LjL's bot! Say %modules or %commands to me in private to see my features.	12:29
joerg	no more news, brainstorm?	12:30
Sky_Net	Hello all. Bad news from Moscow, more than 800 died in country yesterday, peak number for all times...	13:22
Sky_Net	and mayor cancelling anti-covid public regulations because elections in September..government afraid to lose more popularity	13:24
Sky_Net	%cases Moscow	13:25
Brainstorm	Sky_Net: Moscow, Russia has had 1.5 million confirmed cases (12.1% of all people) and 26423 deaths (1.7% of cases) as of 5 hours ago. +2294 cases, +56 deaths since a day ago. See https://offloop.net/covid19/?default=Moscow	13:25
Brainstorm	Sky_Net: If you know of an official or otherwise good site for data about Moscow, with a reasonably short URL, please %tell LjL about it.	13:25
de-facto	how are vaccinations progressing?	13:38
specing	Sky_Net: probably they decided that vaccines are available and that people who refuse can just die	13:39
specing	like BoJo did	13:39
de-facto	for every 5 Russians only 1 is fully vaccinated	13:40
joerg	%tr <de Die Gesundheitsämter können nicht mehr alle Infektionsketten nachvollziehen. https://www.rki.de/DE/Content/InfAZ/N/Neuartiges_Coronavirus/Situationsberichte/Wochenbericht/Wochenbericht_2021-08-12.pdf?__blob=publicationFile	13:47
Brainstorm	joerg, German to English: The health authorities can no longer trace all chains of infection. https://www.rki.de/DE/Content/InfAZ/N/Neuartiges_Coronavirus/Situationsberichte/Wochenbericht/Wochenbericht_2021-08-12.pdf?__blob=publicationFile (MyMemory, Google)	13:47
Sky_Net	Vaccine is available, but i think people stopped doing it, because mayor revoked his anti covid regulations (no one could go to restaraunt without QR-code)	13:50
Sky_Net	We had a slight peak of vaccinations when this regulations was announced, but after people started to vaccinate, he revoked law...	13:50
Sky_Net	So why should anti-coviders do vaccine if they aren't repressed?	13:51
Sky_Net	(i mean, rights violation)	13:51
Sky_Net	(i mean, rights violation)	13:51
Sky_Net	Globally, infection will spread in this region..more bio-chambers for virus mutation, expect new variants	13:52
joerg	https://i.imgur.com/dQc1Igf.png	13:56
de-facto	Sky_Net, do we have vaccination rate data (number of given first/second doses) over time for Russia/Moscow?	13:56
avu	Russia uses its own vaccine, right? Haven't read much about its risks/effectiveness as it's not approved where I live	13:57
specing	there are 4 or so russian vaccines nowadays?	13:58
avu	I only ever heard about "Sputnik"	13:58
de-facto	i think some news said 83% against delta	13:58
de-facto	not sure about the endpoint of that claim (e.g. infection, symptoms, hospitalization, etc)	14:00
specing	assume death, then :P	14:02
de-facto	no that endpoint probably is much better than 83%	14:07
de-facto	i assume symptomatic infection or sth like that	14:07
joerg	seems brainstorm is broken, no? no more messages about new publications etc	14:09
avu	do you mean the stuff the bot posts in ##covid-ticker ?	14:12
joerg	sucks	14:12
joerg	just noticed it	14:12
joerg	I'm not going to set up yet another channel in my logging, and I gonna remove this channel since logging it is pointless	14:13
joerg	discussion by cross-reference to another channel never worked in IRC	14:15
joerg	a pity to see this channel falling apart	14:16
joerg	o/	14:20
pwr22	The channel isn't really broken. LjL disabled the news posting yesterday and I hope that he will choose to bring it back some time	16:04
pwr22	🙂	16:04
Sky_Net	In Russia we have only Sputnik, other 2 are extremely hard to find because when all rushed to vaccinate, they chose NOT Sputnik.	16:06
Sky_Net	Also there's a story about family who died from NOT Sputnik vaccine, all family members except teen girl	16:07
Sky_Net	4 members	16:07
specing	https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_vaccination_in_Russia	16:23
specing	Sky_Net: epivac? covivac?	16:24
qkall[m]	<pwr22> "The channel isn't really broken." <- thanks for this i thought i was crazy... i signed in here in between seeing the bots workign and this... i was so damn confused lol.	16:29
de-facto	.title https://ncovtrack.com/vaccine/russia/federal-subjects	16:31
Brainstorm	de-facto: From ncovtrack.com: Russia: Vaccine Live Map - Federal Subjects	16:31
de-facto	.title https://ncovtrack.com/vaccine/russia	16:32
Brainstorm	de-facto: From ncovtrack.com: Russia: Vaccine Live Progress: Latest Statistics, Charts and Manufacturers	16:32
Sky_Net	Epivac = Sputnik	16:49
Sky_Net	ohh	16:49
Sky_Net	i may say wrong	16:49
Sky_Net	they didn't die from Sputnik, but from other one	16:50
Sky_Net	Strong one which contain weak virus..	16:50
Sky_Net	Altrough all of family members had serious diseases (diabetics, etc), public opinion immideately swinged against government vaccination program	16:51
Sky_Net	You see, pandemic is political issue in Russia, not medical	16:51
Guest34	hi	16:54
Guest34	I have cold+ dry cough(for almost 5 days) and some times head ache and fever when not consuming paracetamol....Could it be covid? I touched my father face and worried if he also get it	16:55
genera	why not test with some of the 1 $ tests?	16:56
Guest34	I did and report will take 1+ week here	16:57
avu	a test does sound like a slightly better idea than remote diagnosis by random people on IRC :)	16:57
Guest34	then why the f this channel here	16:57
Guest34	what to talk about	16:58
genera	i meant the self tests.	16:58
avu	to talk about news and papers, not to diagnose people I would think	16:58
genera	that i can buy in tthe supermarket. and which take 15 minutes	16:58
Guest34	genera what are they?	16:58
genera	not PCR :-)	16:59
avu	what exactly is available where depends on where you are in the world I think	16:59
genera	some antigen immuno assay i think	16:59
Guest34	genera Thank you	17:01
de-facto	transmission is not only over touching surfaces, it mainly is per aerosol, imagine invisible smoke coming out of everybodies mouth, if someone is infected this aerosol can be infectious for others to inhale	17:03
de-facto	also spreads via bigger droplets from respiratory tract, e.g. everybody spits a lot of those when speaking etc	17:04
de-facto	of course contamination via touching surfaces is possible, but afaik not the main transmission path, yet ofc it depends on the environment	17:05
de-facto	.title https://www.covid19india.org/state/AP	17:05
Brainstorm	de-facto, the URL could not be loaded	17:05
de-facto	so Guest34 in your place i would try to isolate from others until symptoms resolved and you feel healthy again	17:08
Guest34	de-factowe gt 2 bhk and I locked in one bedroom thats nt sufficient?	17:08
Guest34	its very big home	17:09
Guest34	we got*	17:09
Guest34	I am also getting back pain	17:10
de-facto	its spreads via aerosol, so its hard to tell, if you would assume someone else could smell a imaginary cigarette you would smoke, there would be a bath connecting both respiratory tracts	17:10
de-facto	transmission path connecting both respiratory tracts	17:11
dTal	wow rude	17:19
lastshell	Guest34 are you vaccinated ?	17:32
dTal	lastshell, they're gone	17:32
dTal	just closed the window	17:32
lastshell	I disable joins, parts, quits, nicks to have a clean irc	17:34
lastshell	does vaccine wears off after 4 or 6 months ? (mRNA)	17:35
IndoAnon	de-facto: are you there?	17:52
de-facto	yes	17:56
LjL-Matrix	Well so long again joerg, he tells me to chill down but he's hardly better	18:06
LjL-Matrix	So if you want Brainstorm and RSS news, updates and tweets, type "%addpoint covidnews", if you don't want them and prefer them to stay in ##covid-ticker / #covid-updates:matrix.org, type "%rmpoint covidnews". Once, I can see multiple posts, and in PM it will do something different. I'll let it run for a while I guess.	18:07
LjL-Matrix	Also if joerg thought the only good reason for logging this channel was the links maybe he should have been logging ##coronalinks to begin with	18:08
de-facto	%addpoint covidnews	18:10
Brainstorm	covidnews: +1/-0, 1	18:10
de-facto	%addpoint ljlrocks	18:12
LjL	%rmpoint ljlrocks	18:13
Brainstorm	ljlrocks: +0/-1, -1	18:13
de-facto	%addpoint ljlrocks	18:14
LjL	maybe he just disagrees, not sure why it isn't working	18:14
LjL	Brainstorm, reload scores	18:16
Brainstorm	LjL: <module 'scores' from '/home/brainstorm/brainstorm/bot/modules/scores.py'> (version: 2021-08-13 16:15:52)	18:16
de-facto	%scores covidnews	18:16
Brainstorm	covidnews: +1/-0, 1	18:16
LjL	de-facto, try again?	18:16
de-facto	%addpoint ljlrocks	18:16
Brainstorm	ljlrocks: +1/-1, 0	18:16
de-facto	%addpoint ljlrocks	18:18
de-facto	%scores ljlrocks	18:19
IndoAnon	oops	19:12
LjL	de-facto, https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.12.21261929v1 "We tested participants for anti-SARS-CoV-2 antibodies targeting the spike (S) or nucleocapsid (N) proteins (Roche Elecsys immunoassays)" so they really can assess COVID infection and S-protein from vaccines separately if they want to	19:19
de-facto	nice yeah as long as the antibodies are over the detection threshold of their tests and the majority of vaccines does not include N-protein epitopes (i guess inactivated full SARS-CoV-2 vaccines would also produce N-protein antibodies)	19:28
Samnzdat	O, this should be fun.	19:32
Samnzdat	The True Believers snap up all the bullshit "virus" channel names early.	19:33
IndoAnon	de-facto: do you find something similar to https://yewtu.be/watch?v=pd1Mk0zwil0 ?	19:38
de-facto	find something similar?	19:40
de-facto	over a year ago i warned about the window for herd immunity is closing due to the phylogenetic tree diversifying into a growing number of sub-lineages each specializing in its own ways, i was always saying we need to hurry with a maximum rate globally synchronized vaccination campaign that holds down incidence after it was brought down by NPIs	19:44
de-facto	we do the opposite of that, hence the result will not be herd immunity	19:46
mci64	anyway, we all are going die!	19:46
de-facto	sure sooner or later :P	19:46
de-facto	there are interesting papers about genetic signs of ancient coronavirus epidemics localized in certain populations many thousands of years ago	19:48
de-facto	due to natural selection they left their marks in the genome of those populations	19:48
de-facto	.title https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.11.16.385401v2.full	19:49
Brainstorm	de-facto: From www.biorxiv.org: An ancient viral epidemic involving host coronavirus interacting genes more than 20,000 years ago in East Asia \| bioRxiv	19:49
IndoAnon	de-facto: Well, a year ago I was underfire for suggesting the possibility of it being a lab leak	19:51
mci64	anyway guys, covid is great business of someones and they keep people in fear	19:51
twomoon	hi IndoAnon	19:52
IndoAnon	twomoon: well, hello	19:52
de-facto	yet fortunately SARS-CoV-2 has not such a high fatality rate like other CoVs (e.g. SARS-CoV-1 or MERS-CoV) hence probably will not be much of a selection before humans are able to reproduce their genes	19:52
twomoon	kabarmu gimana	19:53
IndoAnon	baik baik aja	19:53
twomoon	stay sane sir	19:53
IndoAnon	To others, I'm insane	19:54
de-facto	why IndoAnon ?	19:54
de-facto	hard burden in Indonesia there with COVID?	19:54
IndoAnon	I don't know... From being different v	19:54
IndoAnon	:v	19:54
twomoon	due to being the only anak indo who uses IRC	19:55
twomoon	lol j/k	19:55
de-facto	how are things going there IndoAnon ?	19:55
IndoAnon	It's certainly easing right now, especially on jakarta. It went by 1/10th	19:55
de-facto	oh glad to hear that	19:55
IndoAnon	twomoon: Idk, Am I the only indo who post on 4chan and have IRC?	19:56
IndoAnon	Ya, klo discord sepertinya semua orang punya wkwk	19:56
de-facto	lets stick with English so everyone can understand :D	19:57
IndoAnon	And, it's pretty bad on rural area, de-facto. I lost few acquaintances >40YO	19:58
de-facto	oh i am sorry to hear that	19:59
IndoAnon	Don't be sorry. I, at some point have told them to not went back to their hometown or visit someone else and detach their mask	20:00
twomoon	IndoAnon, that i've seen, yeah	20:00
twomoon	there are a few on quora tho	20:00
IndoAnon	Hmm, about what, twomoon?	20:00
twomoon	about?	20:01
twomoon	what do you mean?	20:01
IndoAnon	people who went to their hometown/village and died there?	20:01
IndoAnon	I mean, quora stuff	20:01
twomoon	tidak, just random topics	20:01
IndoAnon	Oh, ok lol	20:01
twomoon	like jobs in indonesia, lifestyle	20:01
twomoon	laws	20:01
de-facto	do you know about hospital capacity usage IndoAnon ?	20:02
IndoAnon	pedulilindungi apps is weird too	20:02
twomoon	owww tidak pernah hear about that	20:02
IndoAnon	The government arbitrarily set the quota	20:02
de-facto	i guess there is not enough in rural areas to give people the treatment they require in order to survive it?	20:02
IndoAnon	de-facto: That, I don't know much. But, imagine managing small rural clinics, then someone who got coronad visit your office, and other patients got infected	20:03
de-facto	yeah especially with the infectiousness of Delta it spreads fast	20:04
IndoAnon	Eventually, they would be referred to small hospital. But, there's probably no ICU. So, the medication is only iv drips and oxygen tank	20:05
twomoon	are you avoiding the post office these days de-facto ?	20:05
twomoon	restaurants, post office, offices?	20:05
de-facto	not really, i regularly have contact to other people in supermarket, post office, university etc	20:06
IndoAnon	Then they would get referred to regency's hospital. Probably with ICU beds in tens, max hundred.	20:06
de-facto	but i always wear FFP2 or sometimes FFP3 mask	20:06
de-facto	and i make sure it fits correctly	20:06
de-facto	I do avoid close contact or dense crowds though	20:07
de-facto	e.g. i for sure would never go in a club and do party	20:07
de-facto	(I did enjoy that before, but those times are over post COVID, its just not possible anymore)	20:08
twomoon	nice mask heh	20:09
de-facto	i am fully vaccinated, but i dont want to contribute to spreading it	20:09
mci64	I don't care about this fascistic covid restrictions and i never will live in pandemic fear.	20:09
IndoAnon	Sorry for the blogpost, but it's the sad truth that many villagers will die even with only severe symptoms due to them seeking help at the last few days of their life or medical doctors who doesn't know how to treat it + unable to stock up on basics such as ivermectin, HCQ, and other stuff	20:10
twomoon	eventually virus will evolve toward just affecting nasal tissue	20:10
IndoAnon	the spike protein will stay	20:11
twomoon	because vaccines are successful in preventing lung tissue infection	20:11
twomoon	what blog post?	20:12
de-facto	mci64, if people dont behave in a sane way by acting responsible by themselves its the duty of governments to protect the interests (such as preventing harm to health and economy) for majorities, the alternative we were able to observe many times by now, and its definitely nothing one would wish to the most bad enemy	20:13
IndoAnon	twomoon: are you implying those who got spike protein therapeutics but get infected; the virus only infect their upper respiratory system + bronchial?	20:13
mci64	de-facto, it is fine, it is your opinion and lock yourself because of the flu.	20:14
de-facto	its about the interests of majorities	20:15
twomoon	that's what we've been seeing so far IndoAnon	20:15
LjL	mci64, if you don't think covid is "a thing" or warrants attention or is no more than the flu, please take the door	20:15
de-facto	its not an opinion, its what we all can observe independently	20:15
twomoon	but more generally i think the therapeutics put selective pressure on the evolution of the virus and the virus will tend toward mainly infecting nasal tissue like rhinovirus and other coronaviruses	20:16
IndoAnon	that's quite a proposition, twomoon. But I wonder how the symptom tree would be like	20:16
mci64	de-facto, we everybody know what the pseudo virus about...	20:17
twomoon	well i don't know what's going to happen but i'm trying to think of it like darwin would	20:17
LjL	twomoon, i don't know much about therapeutics, but the vaccines don't entirely prevent system-wide infection as apparently the people who get infected (fewer than unvaccinated, for sure, but still considerable amounts) only have about 1/2 the chances of ending up with long COVID	20:17
twomoon	yes you are right ljl	20:17
de-facto	mci64, are you serious? tell the the relatives of those that dies from your "pseudovirus"	20:17
LjL	i don't know if they're serious, but they're muted. can't say they hadn't just been warned.	20:18
IndoAnon	lick the toilet seat! lick the toilet seat! lick the toilet seat!	20:18
LjL	no thanks	20:18
de-facto	yeah probably just trolling anyhow, almost two years and they call it a pseudovirus, LOL	20:19
IndoAnon	Haha, that's the joke. For iranian, it would be licking the grave's doors	20:19
IndoAnon	I mean shrine/grave	20:19
twomoon	try to think of how the vaccines put selective pressure on the virus	20:20
twomoon	i think i am missing something	20:20
de-facto	for the virus a fully vaccinated population looks like one that just recovered from a pure Wuhan-Hu-1 spike protein infection	20:21
IndoAnon	Well, where ACE2 receptor is located	20:21
IndoAnon	*consider where	20:21
de-facto	so if it once found a way to circumvent and evade such immunity in one host, it probably can exploit the similarity in immunity after being transferred to the next host in such population, continuing with optimizing its fitness and evasion of that immunity	20:23
de-facto	but we will see how much similarity the immunity in people got, e.g. if the selection pressure really goes into the same "direction" in a breakthrough infection chian	20:25
de-facto	i think fully vaccinated really must avoid transferring breakthrough infections, otherwise their frequency will increase	20:26
twomoon	ok you're not really making an educated guess about the direction	20:26
IndoAnon	Hmm, time to check https://covid.viz.sg	20:26
twomoon	your first paragraph just basically said "evolution is a random walk".	20:26
IndoAnon	>No more live data from MOH>Unfortunately, because the Ministry of Health (MOH) Covid portal has stopped reporting detailed case notes since 29th June (Tuesday), this visualization cannot be updated.	20:26
IndoAnon	Oh no no	20:26
de-facto	no my point is if it found a way to circumvent vaccine immunity in one host, the probability of that way to work in the next host with immunity from same vaccine increases with similarity in vaccine induced immunity	20:27
IndoAnon	imagine fungi that threatened cloned Cavendish	20:30
twomoon	i guess i don't quite get it, de-facto	20:31
IndoAnon	You don't get which part? If you want, I can answer in indo	20:32
twomoon	nevermind, it sucks to be dumb	20:33
de-facto	if you pick a lock of a door and found a way to get in, the probability to enter the next door depends on if the strategy you learned in picking the lock of the first door also works on the second door, hence on how similar the exploit of the second lock is compared to the first lock	20:34
twomoon	i think i get it. he's saying the vaccine just makes it evolve "away from the vaccine"	20:34
IndoAnon	Jadi, ketika seseorang yang sudah divaksin terinfeksi. Ada kemungkinan ia untuk menulari seseorang yang sudah divaksin juga	20:34
twomoon	or "away from the antibodies produced in response to the vaccine"	20:34
IndoAnon	karena imunitasnya mirip, maka kemungkinannya adalah Besar	20:35
LjL	evolution is a random walk but then there are factors that terminate certain paths (unsuccessful mutations) and perpetuate others (successful ones)	20:35
IndoAnon	>>334085496>[..]Lockdowns and isolation favour higher higher viral loads, which increase severity. Mobility for the vaxed means that while severity and mutation as a result of antibodies and other confounding variables for the virus to make entry to host cells certainly are in play, the severity gains from increased loads that are born of increased transmissibility requirements may decline. It ultimately depends on how long the vaxed are able to gain	20:36
IndoAnon	and maintain freedom of movement, in terms of seeking the best possible outcome for coronachan.	20:36
twomoon	that's a good analogy, de-facto	20:36
LjL	vaccines can be one of those factors. natural immunity also. even social distancing and masks could be, unfortunately, a factor: virus variants with any mutations that promote more presence in aerosol may get an advantage	20:36
twomoon	social-distancing-influenced evolution is hard to wrap my head around	20:37
LjL	i don't know if it's actually been happening, but it's logically possible	20:38
twomoon	i mean just wrapping my head around the logical possibility of it happening	20:38
twomoon	i'm struggling to analyze the situation	20:38
LjL	the virus keeps mutating in all sorts of way. a single person can have a large number of mutated virions. but if none of them have any special advantage, which type will go on to infect the next host is random/irrelevant	20:39
de-facto	monocultures are more susceptible because a successful exploit can spread much more quickly, thats also the case with computer viruses btw	20:40
LjL	add any "challenge" for the virus (like "you need to be able to infect people more than 2m away", although i don't personally think the virus never couldn't do that, but let's assume that), and some of those virions, in some of the many infected persons, will be able to win the challenge	20:40
LjL	once they win that challenge, they have a clear advantage over other variants, and so the latter will likely wane and the former will become ubiquitous	20:40
LjL	without the challenge, you'd still have the variants, but they wouldn't make much of a dent to the main variants already circulating	20:41
LjL	they may also have drawbacks to their own survival/reproduction, so if they have no challenge to win, they may just go away	20:41
de-facto	as long as contamination dose is not saturated in terms of causing infections it always will be an advantage for the virus to produce more contamination rates	20:43
twomoon	winning the challenge = infecting another host?	20:43
de-facto	example: if a mutation 1000-folds the viral load it only matters if that results in more infections, if it causes the exact same number of infections (saturated) it is not a selection	20:43
de-facto	twomoon, exactly	20:44
LjL	de-facto, unless it means killing hosts, or getting them to isolate, before the virus has a chance to infect other hosts. if you're just filled with virions so that your cells can't take it and you die too quickly, that won't be good for the virus, as it'll reproduce a lot in one host, but then won't move over to other hosts	20:44
de-facto	yes i think in most situations the contamination dose is not saturated, e.g. a carrier does not infect 100% of its contacts	20:45
de-facto	so as long as that is the case there will be a selection for higher viral loads	20:45
de-facto	hence lockdowns with decreasing contact rates are decreasing incidence without breeding more aggressive strains (even preventing that by decreasing bruteforcing)	20:46
LjL	but viral load can influence what a "contact" is	20:47
LjL	low viral loads may mean that taking the elevator isn't a contact as long as i'm alone in the elevator	20:47
LjL	higher viral loads may saturate the air enough that taking it hours after someone else did counts as a contact	20:48
de-facto	if a contact does not take place the infection is impossible, if a contact takes place and contamination dose is not saturated (e.g. 100% transmissible) there always will be selection towards higher viral loads	20:48
twomoon	example: if a mutation 1000-folds the viral load it only matters if that results in more infections, if it causes the exact same number of infections (saturated) it is not a selection	20:49
twomoon	this is interesting de-facto , i hadn't considered that before	20:49
LjL	well de-facto, when loosely enough defined, a contact can be just about anything - chances that i'll breathe in one virions from some random person, even if i'm tucked away inside my room most of the time, aren't low	20:50
de-facto	but there are thresholds for infection, otherwise we all would have antibodies already	20:51
twomoon	does the virus know that it has invaded another host when it finally does?	20:52
de-facto	but yeah LjL your scenario is legit with the elevator being a contact without direct person-to-person contact if aerosol accumulation overcomes that threshold in the average duration of staying in that location	20:52
LjL	twomoon, what do you mean by "know"	20:53
LjL	as far as i know, the virus isn't conscious, whatever consciousness even is :P	20:53
twomoon	i know it's not conscious. but i'm wondering if the virus has a way of reacting differently once it invaded a slightly different cell membrane relative to the one prior	20:54
twomoon	once it has invaded	20:54
de-facto	if it reacts differently then due to differences in the cell	20:54
LjL	my guess would be no	20:54
twomoon	bacteria aren't conscious either	20:55
LjL	except yeah, due to differences in the cell, but not under virus control	20:55
de-facto	the virus itself is just a metastable complex puzzle of molecules	20:55
LjL	twomoon, bacteria can react to things though. viruses don't have sensory organs	20:55
de-facto	bacteria can self-replicate without the help of a cell though	20:55
twomoon	oh ok yeah bacteria have a rudimentary memory system	20:55
LjL	there could be epigenetic phenomena with viruses, i guess i can't rule those out, but if they exist they're probably very difficult to identify	20:56
de-facto	surely SARS-CoV-2 got some functionality in its RNA genome that was of advantage in the cells of its previous host that are just irrelevant in the human cell replication cycles because those mechanisms dont work in human cells	20:57
twomoon	yeah there's really no way a virus can know it's infecting a new host unless viruses are more sophisticated than i realize	20:57
de-facto	so those probably will not be conserved due to no selection pressure, and may even be randomly deleted without disadvantage for the pathogen replication cycle in human cells	20:58
LjL	nixonnixoff	21:00
de-facto	the selection pressure by uprising immune response should be a function of time, so arriving in a new host should begin a the start of that again	21:01
LjL	de-facto, hence Alpha possibly having arisen in just one immunocompromised host, i guess	21:01
de-facto	arriving in a new host would expose that pathogen to the earliest immune response parts again, because other parts of the reaction to its presence require some time to ramp up	21:02
de-facto	and that very well may play a big role in terms of transmissibility, e.g. how fast it can replicate in the upper respiratory tract (nasal and pharyngeal cavities)	21:03
de-facto	or how long it can fly under the radar of the immune system etc	21:03
de-facto	LjL, yes if the immune response barely reaches neutralization, hence allows for many viral generations to mutate and select under partial neutralizing selection pressure (such as in immuno-compromised carriers) it will result in accumulation of more mutations compared to an average infection in a non-immuno-compromised host	21:06
lastshell	no idea, why the media is not pushing eat more healthy and do exercise, most of the sick patients are obese	21:23
specing	why don't we have taxes on unhealthy food	21:23
FSRgoesbrr[m]	no way to say what is healthy or not	21:24
FSRgoesbrr[m]	are vegans right?	21:24
lastshell	no processed food == healthy	21:24
FSRgoesbrr[m]	are pescaterians right?	21:25
FSRgoesbrr[m]	who knows	21:25
lastshell	keto, or meateaters I know there are many options	21:25
lastshell	but most agree that processed food are bad	21:25
lastshell	https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/obesity-and-covid-19.html	21:28
twomoon	analyzing selective pressures is extremely hard heh	21:29
twomoon	sources of selective pressure*	21:29
de-facto	its the single most important factor in a pandemic though	21:30
twomoon	it's a fascinating discussion but it requires a lot of intelligence	21:30
de-facto	its a global longterm problem, hence we need to think globally in large timescales	21:32
lastshell	people need to have healthy lifestyles that will stop a lot the spreed of this virus	21:34
de-facto	it certainly can help with improving health and immune system capabilities	21:35
lastshell	https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/does-exercise-help-protect-against-severe-covid-19-202106092475	21:35
LjL	there are taxes on foods with "too much" sugar added either in place or being discussed in various countries	21:36
lastshell	yeah but bad food is damn cheap	21:36
twomoon	what do you think about sugar taxes ?	21:36
lastshell	sugar is poison	21:36
twomoon	i think a sugar tax was tried in philadelphia here in the USA	21:37
LjL	"sugar is poison" is the kind of extreme claim that i hope governments don't end up buying	21:37
de-facto	it was really encouraging to see so many people running that looked really exhausted in early 2020 here in Germany	21:37
de-facto	obviously they were new to sports and worked on improving their health	21:37
twomoon	govs should avoid looking extreme and such statements make them look extreme	21:37
lastshell	LjL it sounds extreme, but is not, if you study in deep what sugar does to your body you will be surprise	21:38
lastshell	https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2009/06/104177/sugar-poison-says-ucsf-obesity-expert	21:39
pwr22	Everything is a poison in different quantities	21:42
lastshell	that is totally correct ^	21:42
pwr22	*sufficient	21:42
pwr22	We humans have efficient enzymes for breaking down starches into glucose so I'm not convinced that "sugar is a poison" is something I buy into	21:44
pwr22	Adding large amounts of it into stuff is certainly not super healthy though	21:44
lastshell	correct, here in USA almost anything has sugar	21:44
pwr22	Especially in common with a lot of fats too like iced cream	21:44
pwr22	That combo doesn't seem to happen in nature in a 1:1 ratio much so kind of breaks feedback mechanisms we have to stop eating	21:46
pwr22	I personally think a sugar tax isn't a bad idea	21:46
ublx	is it possible that we have such well crafted enzymes to cope with a historical energy scarcity that no longer exists for many of us?	21:47
ublx	thusly pulling sugar dosing into a poison regime	21:47
pwr22	Depends how you see it / define it	21:48
pwr22	Mammals tend to live longer when calorie restricted	21:48
pwr22	Should we consider anyone not starving to be poisoned?	21:49
* ublx hides all pwr22's cookies		21:49
pwr22	Ha ha	21:49
pwr22	I'm actually on a diet ATM	21:49
pwr22	Lost about 4 kilos in the last 3 weeks	21:49
pwr22	I'm really hungry right this second but I'm not eating anymore today if I don't do don't exercise	21:50
ublx	keto is good for never feeling hungry (ymmv, consult a doctor before yaddayadda..)	21:51
LjL	death is good for never feeling hungry	21:51
pwr22	ublx: When people induce themselves into diabetes then I think that's a really good definition of chronic sugar poisoning 😅	21:51
pwr22	I'm one of those always hungry people	21:52
ublx	did you ever try eliminating starchy vegetables and refined carbohydrates from your diet though?	21:52
pwr22	But I've done alternate day fasting for many months before and sort of practiced mindful acceptance of the feeling so these days it's not a big deal	21:53
pwr22	Yeah, I've done that. My diet right now is pretty good though I can't say I really am interested in doing a proper keto sort of thing	21:54
ublx	well proper <5% carbohydrates keto is pretty dang extreme tbf	21:54
pwr22	A bunch of what I'm eating right now is savoury huel and huel bars	21:54
LjL	i'm probably tending towards the trends that give one diabetes currently. and yet, my belly was positive concave before i started taking certain medications. some people would point out that "with willpower" i could keep my belly concave or at least not strongly convex anyway, but does that remove any/all "blame" from those medications?	21:55
pwr22	Made my own paneer recently too	21:55
LjL	what is the poison, the sugar (or whatever i overeat) or the chemicals that make me want to do so?	21:55
pwr22	Which I like to use in curries	21:55
ublx	LjL: what if the chemical that makes you want sugar is sugar?	21:56
de-facto	i wonder if diabetes rates will increase during the pandemic	21:56
pwr22	ublx in general I tend to avoid simple carbs, or other "empty calories" for exactly the reason you suggest it, they aren't very sustaining	21:57
LjL	ublx, i think i'll leave it at "certain medications"	21:57
de-facto	s-protein also attacks beta cells afaik	21:57
pwr22	LjL I'm pretty convex right now 😅	21:57
LjL	i'm tiny, but now convex too	21:59
pwr22	I do think we have constructed an environment where it is very easy for humans who aren't in poverty to become unhealthy and then live long unhealthy lives due to our food medicine	21:59
pwr22	Hopefully we can evolve to handle our post scarcity nutrition a little better	22:00
LjL	yeah, one semi-recent survey in italy found that life expectancy was going up, but healthy life expectancy was going down	22:00
LjL	(semi-recent because actually life expectancy has gone down more recently...)	22:00
pwr22	My weight last week was 213lbs which is down from 222	22:00
ublx	not going to whip out any papers right now but i'd expect (western style) poverty to correlate with obesity, owing to cheapness of (sugar and chemical laden) terrible fake foods	22:01
pwr22	My ideal target weight is 143lbs	22:01
pwr22	Lol	22:01
pwr22	Poverty was probably the wrong word ublx	22:01
pwr22	Lack of available foods night be a better one	22:02
LjL	pwr22, 130lbs here but it's all relative. i used to be 95 and i wasn't anorexic or anything, even though some doctors sometimes suspected it	22:02
twomoon	whoa 95	22:02
pwr22	I don't mean poor Western people, I mean like people having to hunt or gather scare food so it's hard to even have enough to over eat	22:03
pwr22	Which is what we're evolved for	22:03
LjL	also, before i leave to have dinner including some binging on sweets, a reminder that channel regulars may want to have a look at the topic	22:04
* ublx hides all LjL's sweets		22:04
ublx	does the topic say anything about hiding sweets?	22:04
pwr22	I was around 100 or so when I lost a lot of weight as a young adult but I lost all my muscle sir to unhealthy dieting	22:04
pwr22	I was eating like 400 calories a day and walking like 12 miles a day	22:05
pwr22	I would say I probably fit the definition of an eating disorder at the time	22:05
lastshell	im 198 i was 260lb last year	22:06
pwr22	Then I realised one day I couldn't see how I actually looked and actually saw myself as I was. So I got into building up muscle and for a lot better but heavier	22:06
pwr22	lastshell nice work!	22:06
lastshell	slowly recovering strength	22:07
lastshell	spine issues last year	22:07
pwr22	%addpoint covidnews	22:07
Brainstorm	covidnews: +2/-0, 2	22:07
lastshell	pwr22 what kind of exercise or workouts you doing ?	22:08
pwr22	Playing physical games on my Oculus quest ATM, some walking and a little cycling here and there	22:09
lastshell	I got a fitbit last year that help me a lot	22:09
pwr22	ATM I'm finding lower impact more fun stuff like the vr the easiest to keep up ATM	22:09
pwr22	As I get a bit more in shape I'll probably transition back to a bunch of cycling every week and some strength stuff too	22:10
de-facto	im 6'4" and 190-200lbs hence BMI ~ 23-24	22:10
de-facto	i think i should loose some weight by doing more sports	22:10
pwr22	Already feeling a lot healthier than I did a few weeks ago	22:10
lastshell	nice	22:10
pwr22	lastshell: Cool, I have a Garmin watch I'll dust out at some point too	22:11
de-facto	actually i gained quite some weight by quitting smoking in early 2020	22:11
pwr22	*dust off	22:11
pwr22	de-facto that's interesting. It's an appetite suppressant right?	22:12
de-facto	i am not sure about the mechanism, maybe also influences metabolism somehow?	22:12
lastshell	de-facto im 5'11 198lb i think my bmi says im overweight but inhave big bones	22:12
de-facto	it probably changes a lot of things	22:12
lastshell	most smokers skip meals	22:14
de-facto	i dont think i eat more, i even eat less i think	22:14
de-facto	sometimes i only eat one or two slice of bread per day	22:15
de-facto	anyhow i think increasing metabolism would be a good thing, hence doing sports etc	22:16
de-facto	healthy and diverse diet, moderate regular sports, regular uninterrupted sleep, that would be the ideal i guess	22:17
vaxonvaxoff	jesus christ dudes, you know what day it is?	22:18
de-facto	yeah the lucky one	22:18
vaxonvaxoff	lets pray. or if youre not religious, watch a movie	22:18
vaxonvaxoff	there was some interesting discussion above, give me a moment, gotta read	22:18
ublx	%addpoint covidnews	22:19
Brainstorm	covidnews: +3/-0, 3	22:19
vaxonvaxoff	there was couple of new nucleocapsid mutations in 1.1.7 causing new subgenomic rna synthesis, and increasing production of some accessory proteins	22:27
vaxonvaxoff	and other mutations for other accessory and nonstructural proteins, several of them inhibiting ifn-I or mitochondrial signalling, suppressing innate immune response	22:29
vaxonvaxoff	those are thought to affect at least upper respiratory epithelial cells, not sure of other type of cells are confirmed	22:29
vaxonvaxoff	also strange mechanism for one of those proteins seems to be switch of by the hosts own cellular regulating due to phosphorylation of that protein, that they hypothicized was evolved with other previous coronaviruses	22:31
vaxonvaxoff	so that early in infection the innate response is more suppressed, and then later when its switched off, there will be more inflammation and more severe symptoms	22:32
vaxonvaxoff	but i really havent read much about this delta variant yet, and idk if the increased transmission is due to similar immune suppression mechanisms (which it apparently doesnt have as many), or eg the mutation promoting syncytia	22:33
vaxonvaxoff	cell fusion	22:33
vaxonvaxoff	some of you guys have read about delta and innate response suppression? link me to some paper if handy	22:34
vaxonvaxoff	lot of those above have come quite late, so its possible that the understading of 617.2 is behind	22:34
nixonix	i told you, friday the 12+1	22:50
LjL	friday 13 doesn't bother me, i'm not superstitious. it's just friday 17 that's dangerous.	22:50
nixonix	dont use it. i know about italians and that silly 17, but whats behind that, why 17?	22:51
LjL	why 13?	22:51
nixonix	its been that since the beginning of times	22:52
LjL	suuuure	22:52
nixonix	cosmological constant probably	22:52
nixonix	what was the last line i typed, that came through?	22:53
nixonix	damn dudes, my words are important. i want to know what dissapeared in bit heaven, and what did not. ill repaste those that you didnt get	22:56
LjL	<vaxonvaxoff> lot of those above have come quite late, so its possible that the understading of 617.2 is behind	22:57
nixonix	ah thanks. but i didnt see all those comments, would you guys repaste them?	22:57
nixonix	do i live in fast motion, or other world in slow motion?	22:58
LjL	ok	22:58
LjL	done	22:58
nixonix	damn server missed them again	22:58
LjL	i don't know, maybe you take too much theanine	22:58
nixonix	anything new, i havent followed in couple days	23:00
LjL	i just don't know anything about the things you were talking about	23:00
LjL	hmm	23:00
LjL	dunno, there is this meta analysis that i didn't want to read 'cause scary https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-95565-8	23:02
nixonix	i could check a few twitter accounts, but guys like those erics and couple others tweet sooo much, it will take time. somebody should do summaries of their interesting tweets	23:02
LjL	tweets are already short summaries of stuff	23:03
LjL	or at least were meant to be. now they do twitter "threads" which thwart it all...	23:03
nixonix	actually thats interesting, ive been involved lately in arguing with some antivaxers, so have to collect some stuff about childrens lc, organ and brain damage and stuff, whats known about them	23:04
LjL	https://www.zotero.org/groups/4391070/covid_links/tags/Brain/library	23:05
nixonix	and those that arent easily diagnosed, including telomeres, if theres something new, both adults and adolescents. older links are fine too, i have to collect some material	23:05
LjL	https://www.zotero.org/groups/4391070/covid_links/tags/Children/library (not much here)	23:05
nixonix	thanks. its time to check your links again (i have checked it sometimes while i was awol, that web page)	23:05
nixonix	owid doesnt have usa for administered vaxes by brand, but i found some links, lemme see	23:06
LjL	the "Long COVID" tag will also have some things about organ damage i guess	23:07
LjL	i may need to add the telomere things	23:07
nixonix	.title https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/covid-19-vaccine-doses.html	23:07
Brainstorm	nixonix: From www.nytimes.com: Covid-19 Vaccinations: County and State Tracker - The New York Times	23:07
nixonix	.title https://data.cdc.gov/Vaccinations/COVID-19-Vaccination-and-Case-Trends-by-Age-Group-/gxj9-t96f	23:08
Brainstorm	nixonix: From data.cdc.gov: COVID-19 Vaccination and Case Trends by Age Group, United States \| Data \| Centers for Disease Control and Prevention	23:08
nixonix	different collection than specops?	23:11
LjL	yes	23:11
LjL	Zotero lets me add and tag more papers more quickly	23:12
LjL	drawbacks are that it doesn't always like regular web pages, it's really meant for things with a DOI	23:12
LjL	also some people didn't like seeing too much stuff being tagged and posted here, so it's posted in ##covid-ticker now, which may change again depending on /topic	23:12
nixonix	not sure if this has been here, but has some of stuff i wrote about:	23:13
nixonix	.title https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.06.06.446826v1.full	23:13
Brainstorm	nixonix: From www.biorxiv.org: Evolution of enhanced innate immune evasion by the SARS-CoV-2 B.1.1.7 UK variant \| bioRxiv	23:13
LjL	i added it under the "Delta" and "Immunity" tags. see, it's magic, i can add stuff without even understanding it enough to write a summary like on github	23:15
lastshell	does anybody has similt story but no paywall https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/13/climate/wildfires-smoke-covid.html	23:18
nixonix	.title https://www.bmj.com/content/374/bmj.n1648	23:19
Brainstorm	nixonix: From www.bmj.com: Long covid—mechanisms, risk factors, and management \| The BMJ	23:19
LjL	lastshell, you can read the paper itself at https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/7/33/eabi8789	23:19
LjL	lastshell, i also have this paper https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0013935120306472 which shows the virus itself can possibly "travel" over small particulate	23:20
nixonix	.title https://twitter.com/RadCentrism/status/1422259585193181187	23:21
Brainstorm	nixonix: From twitter.com: Radical Centrist, wrathful tantric deity (@RadCentrism): "🚨Below is the best way I can think to explain Covid (which attacks epithelial tissue, expressing "ACE2"): If your BODY = a CITY, then COVID = [...]	23:21
nixonix	wheres that pic from? i think it isnt from that bmj paper	23:21
nixonix	.title https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/13/climate/wildfires-smoke-covid.html archive link to behind paywall: https://archive.is/wVtdm	23:23
Brainstorm	nixonix: From www.nytimes.com: In the West, a Connection Between Covid and Wildfires - The New York Times	23:23
nixonix	.title https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/11/3/e048391 from the last year	23:26
Brainstorm	nixonix: From bmjopen.bmj.com: Multiorgan impairment in low-risk individuals with post-COVID-19 syndrome: a prospective, community-based study \| BMJ Open	23:26
nixonix	Conclusions In individuals at low risk of COVID-19 mortality with ongoing symptoms, 70% have impairment in one or more organs 4 months after initial COVID-19 symptoms, with implications for healthcare and public health, which have assumed low risk in young people with no comorbidities	23:27
LjL	nixonix, is it so old it didn't have loss of smell/taste on the radar	23:27
nixonix	.title https://www.eurekalert.org/news-releases/706544	23:34
Brainstorm	nixonix: From www.eurekalert.org: The Lancet: One in two hospitalized COVID-19 \| EurekAlert!	23:34
nixonix	.title https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(21)00799-6/fulltext	23:34
Brainstorm	nixonix: From www.thelancet.com: Characterisation of in-hospital complications associated with COVID-19 using the ISARIC WHO Clinical Characterisation Protocol UK: a prospective, multicentre cohort study - The Lancet	23:34
nixonix	pretty cursory, that nature paper above. more links on possible permanent damages?	23:39
nixonix	.title https://www.news-medical.net/news/20210722/SARS-CoV-2-reprograms-host-chromatic-network-to-induce-immune-dysfunction.aspx anyone familiar with the subject? give some kind of intro	23:48
Brainstorm	nixonix: From www.news-medical.net: SARS-CoV-2 reprograms host chromatic network to induce immune dysfunction	23:48
LjL	%papers "multiorgan damage"	23:54
Brainstorm	LjL, 10 results out of 29: Risk factors for mortality among patients with SARS-CoV-2 infection: A longitudinal observational study by Nouf K Almaghlouth et al, dated 2020-09-29 → https://www.doi.org/10.1002/jmv.26560 [... want %more?]	23:54
LjL	%more	23:54
Brainstorm	LjL, [...] MULTIORGAN DAMAGE IN PATIENTS WITH COVID-19: IS THE TGF-β /BMP PATHWAY THE MISSING LINK? by F Roy Carlson et al, dated 2020-09-29 → https://www.doi.org/10.1016/j.jacbts.2020.09.003 — The beneficial and pathogenic roles of complement in COVID-19 by Alfred H J Kim et al, dated 2020-10-30 → https://www.doi.org/10.3949/ccjm.87a.ccc065 [...] → https://paste.ee/p/A8Dzq	23:54
nixonix	i really recommend that innate immune paper above. some of it is a bit hard to understand prob, but just skip over those parts, or ask me (if i understand those particular parts)	23:55
Jbwncster	Hi	23:57
LjL	hi	23:58
Jbwncster	My county has a mask mandate and 3 towns are refusing to do it	23:59

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