| LjL | dTal, i've used wet wipes when abroad, and to do the same job, you have to use a TON of them | 00:03 |
|---|---|---|
| LjL | which... probably shows that if you're only using toilet paper, using some *slightly wet* toilet paper would make you a bit disgusted with yourself :P | 00:04 |
| dTal | I've been known to do that, and I resent bathrooms which place the sink far from the toilet seat | 00:07 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Michael Lin, MD PhD (@michaelzlin): But not great to be boosting every 5 months. Better to move to vax with Omicron so you can have the same protection boosting every 12 mo. → https://twitter.com/michaelzlin/status/1486112750262796290 | 00:07 |
| xx | people make too big deal out of piss and poop, just wear the mask and wash your hands | 00:09 |
| xx | take a shower when you get home, which you should be doing anyway | 00:09 |
| LjL | taking showers too often is actually not a great thing for the skin | 00:19 |
| LjL | i take a shower once a day and it's already arguably too often | 00:20 |
| xx | that's why I don't go outside often | 00:20 |
| de-facto | whoops | 00:21 |
| de-facto | out of curiosity, in Italy, is it difficult to get a PCR test (due to the high number of cases) or are there still | 00:21 |
| de-facto | enough PCR test? | 00:21 |
| LjL | de-facto, it can only be obtained if a doctor orders one, and it can take several days to obtain the result | 00:25 |
| LjL | this was the case as of a couple of weeks ago, at least | 00:25 |
| LjL | maybe it's slowly getting better | 00:26 |
| LjL | okay it's not true it can only be obtained if a doctor orders it, you can spend some €90 and just buy one | 00:26 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Scott Gottlieb, MD (@ScottGottliebMD): Nielsen released its bi-weekly update of COVID testing data showing, as expected, that retail demand for over-the-counter COVID tests remained high through the first two weeks of Jan, with a bigger variety of test brands now reaching consumers. [... want %more?] → https://twitter.com/ScottGottliebMD/status/1486117357680566285 | 00:27 |
| de-facto | here they are currently discussing how to invest the limited PCR testing capacity because it will get maxed out | 00:27 |
| de-facto | they want to prioritize it to healthcare personnel etc | 00:28 |
| de-facto | (which is a good idea to prioritize it, but an even better idea would be to increase the capacity imho) | 00:28 |
| de-facto | i think we do not test enough in Germany | 00:31 |
| de-facto | there are other countries testing much more (hence find more cases) | 00:31 |
| de-facto | https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/publications-data/testing-rates-100-000-inhabitants-updated-13-january-2022 | 00:32 |
| de-facto | which, honestly makes me question how comparable case numbers are | 00:32 |
| de-facto | https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/number-of-covid-19-tests-per-confirmed-case | 00:33 |
| de-facto | thats sad, we definitely NEED more tests | 00:34 |
| Brainstorm | New from The Lancet (Online): [Correspondence] Omicron neutralising antibodies after third COVID-19 vaccine dose in patients with cancer: Patients with cancer are at greater risk of severe COVID-19 and have been prioritised for COVID-19 vaccination globally. We previously showed that [... want %more?] → https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(22)00147-7/fulltext | 00:36 |
| LjL | de-facto, in absolute numbers though... the countries there with very high testing have almost no cases (yes, you could argue it's partly thanks to the testing, but mostly not really) | 00:40 |
| LjL | de-facto, as to Germany having less testing than much of the western EU in the ECDC map... keep in mind in Italy for instance self-tests are not extremely common, it's more common to get a test that gets counted in the case numbers. in Germany you have very cheap self-tests so those are used more probably | 00:41 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: The next Covid variant will be more contagious than omicron, but the question is whether it will be more deadly, WHO says → https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/scr4yp/the_next_covid_variant_will_be_more_contagious/ | 00:46 |
| lastshell | for me took me like a week to get my PCR last test result | 00:56 |
| lastshell | I think there is some queue in some areas when takes time to know the results | 00:56 |
| lastshell | this was 2 weeks ago | 00:57 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Josiah 'So Mild' Grindrod (@JT_Grindrod): BA.2 ain't fucking around.. twitter.com/BNODesk/status… → https://twitter.com/JT_Grindrod/status/1486127119553875970 | 01:05 |
| de-facto | wow we really do need more PCR testing capacity | 01:16 |
| de-facto | it would be a good thing to have anyhow | 01:17 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): And a 3rd report today on an association with a gut microbiome profile differences w/ #LongCovid vs controls gut.bmj.com/lookup/doi/10.… pic.twitter.com/SBxqDh9gru → https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1486130987935305728 | 01:24 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Liz Carey (@AstroLizzy): @mathsciseeker @JT_Grindrod Maybe we should send them Monica Ghandi to inform them that Covid is over → https://twitter.com/AstroLizzy/status/1486132787128070144 | 01:34 |
| LjL | %title https://twitter.com/BNODesk/status/1486124171545436160 | 01:40 |
| Brainstorm | LjL: From twitter.com: BNO Newsroom (@BNODesk): "France reports 501,635 new coronavirus cases, becoming the second country in the world to reach half a million cases in 1 day" | 42l - nitter | 01:40 |
| LjL | is this really due to BA.2 as Grindrod above seems to suggest? | 01:40 |
| lastshell | is the sub-variant? | 01:40 |
| LjL | that's what i'm asking | 01:41 |
| LjL | i don't have much of a sense for the daily case situation of various countries since Brainstorm stopped reporting them | 01:41 |
| de-facto | wow | 02:06 |
| Brainstorm | New from BBC Health: Two-thirds with Omicron say they have had Covid before: The latest findings hint at how common reinfections might be and who is more likely to catch Covid again. → https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-60132096 | 02:31 |
| LjL | wut | 02:36 |
| LjL | two thirds seems just excessive | 02:36 |
| spassiba | maybe it never ends, but also not 'endemic' | 02:40 |
| Tuvix | LjL: Oh, I had no specific info either way on negative VE of influenza, but was commenting more generically on co-founding factors that should be considered when reading any such claim. | 02:47 |
| Tuvix | There are, after all, 2 kind of study limitations to be aware of: the ones the authors thought of, and the ones they didn't ;) | 02:48 |
| LjL | spassiba, well it can't remain a pandemic forever | 02:51 |
| LjL | one thing is saying endemic is not a desirable state | 02:51 |
| LjL | but it's... what it would be the day it's no longer considered a pandemic. which certainly means there can be more outbreaks, in which case you have an endemic disease with periodic outbreaks | 02:51 |
| spassiba | so it has to be one or the other? | 02:54 |
| LjL | spassiba, well, or "it's gone", but that seemms quite unlikely | 02:58 |
| LjL | pandemic is just an epidemic on a worldwide scale | 02:58 |
| LjL | and a disease is either an epidemic, or it's endemic, or it's... mostly gone, maybe with outbreaks from animals or whatever | 02:59 |
| LjL | (an infectious disease, that is) | 02:59 |
| JanC | also might be different depending on where... | 03:00 |
| Tuvix | endimic is really just a description of a disease being regurlarly found in a population. Let's hope that what we have today is not our regular expectation in terms of death and hospital strain, otherwise our race globally is in for a very differnet quality of living. | 03:00 |
| Tuvix | endemic* | 03:00 |
| JanC | e.g. rabies is almost gone in Europe (even in animals), but not in many other places | 03:00 |
| Tuvix | Presumably both our science and social acceptance of mitigations shown to work will improve. That means both more effective vaccines/treatments and more of the population taking vaccines and protection measures when outbreaks occur. That's just hard to do when "areas experiencing an outbreak" includes the majority of most countries. | 03:01 |
| LjL | cheaaply quoting Wikipedia: "An infection that starts as an epidemic will eventually either die out (with the possibility of it resurging in a theoretically predictable cyclical manner) or reach the endemic steady state, depending on a number of factors, including the virulence of the disease and its mode of transmission." | 03:01 |
| LjL | JanC, well sure these terms are all related to place. "en" in "endemic" means literally "in" | 03:01 |
| LjL | but unless we go ahead with full de-globalization i find it unlikely the "pan" part of this will go away | 03:02 |
| LjL | (and even then...) | 03:02 |
| LjL | Tuvix, actually endemic sort of entails Reff~=1 | 03:02 |
| LjL | so if what we have is more and more waves of viruses that are different enough to escape our defenses | 03:03 |
| LjL | then i believe that's called a "yikes", technically...? | 03:03 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Bolsonaro's far-right guru Carvalho dies at 74 of COVID-19 in United States → https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/scubuc/bolsonaros_farright_guru_carvalho_dies_at_74_of/ | 03:20 |
| minth_ | it would be cool if we could get handheld covid detectors like breathalyzers | 03:31 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): Just published @CellCellPressThe vaccine-induced T cell response holds up well to Omicron 6-7 months post-vaxx, similar to 9 other variants (4 vaccines assessed). Memory B cell recognition was reduced.cell.com/cell/fulltext/… @SetteLab @aetarke @ljiresearch and [... want %more?] → https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1486164312641064962 | 03:39 |
| Brainstorm | New from NPR: Elton John postpones Texas concerts after testing positive for COVID-19: John said that he's fully vaccinated and boosted, experiencing only mild symptoms, and expects to be able to perform at his scheduled show this weekend in Arkansas. → https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2022/01/25/1075677003/elton-john-dallas | 03:58 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): New @CellCellPress An in-depth assessment of over 200 people identifies factors that may predict #LongCovid, including #SARSCoV2 level in the blood, reactivation of EB virus, autoantibodies, and #T2DM. cell.com/cell/fulltext/… @labheath @isbsci @SuYapeng [... want %more?] → https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1486175339193585667 | 04:22 |
| LjL | minth_, it's not a real possibility at present but i think they're working on the concept | 04:35 |
| LjL | JanC, for rabies i didn't have to vaccinate my cat because it's not considered endemic in Lombardy but i would have to if i took it to other regions even within the same country | 04:36 |
| LjL | %title https://twitter.com/BillHanage/status/1486168282398957571 | 04:43 |
| Brainstorm | LjL, the URL could not be loaded | 04:43 |
| JanC | AFAICT there hasn't been a case of rabies in Italy since 2011 | 04:43 |
| LjL | %title https://twitter.com/K_G_Andersen/status/1485784424729886722 | 04:43 |
| Brainstorm | LjL: From twitter.com: Kristian G. Andersen (@K_G_Andersen): "Here's the picture from Denmark - BA.1 vs BA.2. Up until now, I have mostly considered this to be normal dynamics of lineages with almost equal fitness. But now [...] | 04:43 |
| JanC | but there were some cases between 2008 & 2011 because of wild animals migrating from the Balkans | 04:44 |
| JanC | https://www.quotidianosanita.it/governo-e-parlamento/articolo.php?articolo_id=13650 | 04:45 |
| LjL | i dunno, my cat got his vaccines in 2015 | 04:47 |
| JanC | LjL: are the regions where vaccinations are mandatory near the border with Slovenia & Austria? | 04:47 |
| LjL | i don't remember, but likely | 04:47 |
| JanC | they might do it there just in case something like that happens again | 04:48 |
| LjL | JanC, how did they manage to get so many places rabies-free? i guess there are baits with vaccine, but like, i know in the US bats (for a change) can carry rabies, did we manage to vaccinate all bats? | 04:53 |
| de-facto | vaccination of wild animals | 04:53 |
| JanC | they mostly use bait indeed | 04:54 |
| JanC | food that contains the vaccine | 04:54 |
| de-facto | .title https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabies_vaccine#Wild_animals | 04:55 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From en.wikipedia.org: Rabies vaccine - Wikipedia | 04:55 |
| JanC | I think bats here in Europe eat insects mostly, so probably they don't get or spread rabies easily? | 04:59 |
| JanC | "Bat-transmitted rabies occurs throughout North and South America" | 05:01 |
| JanC | so apparently that's an issue in the Americas only | 05:01 |
| spokojni[m] | it's already 5 am | 05:02 |
| spokojni[m] | why u dont sleep? | 05:02 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Nathan Grubaugh (@NathanGrubaugh): Then along came Omicron (B.1.1.529), which was first detected in Botswana and South Africa. It rapidly became dominant, displacing Delta and others. (3/20)Amazing work by @Tuliodna's teamnature.com/articles/s4158… pic.twitter.com/Vb7QFTKzgf → https://twitter.com/NathanGrubaugh/status/1486183133951184901 | 05:28 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): US Covid deaths are now averaging 2,400 per day.3,000 more lost souls were reported today.The death toll is still rising sharply during the Omicron waveNearly all these fatalities were preventable@KBAndersen's piece @TheAtlantic provides key insights [... want %more?] → https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1486194239700566016 | 05:38 |
| Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test): Covid2019: Is omicron a sign that SARS-CoV-2 is evolving into a milder virus? → https://old.reddit.com/r/Covid2019/comments/scyf4c/is_omicron_a_sign_that_sarscov2_is_evolving_into/ | 06:54 |
| TTime | since viruses replicate until your body gives out, and the vaccine prevents this, if I'm boosted, aren't the odds of me both contacting it and spreading it are almost zero, is that correct? | 07:44 |
| spass | with a booster, your odds are 50/50 contracting it | 08:01 |
| Brainstorm | New from Virology.ws: Trial By Error: Does “Long Covid” Need Rebranding As “Ongoing Covid-19 Recovery”?: By David Tuller, DrPH Now here’s a paper called “The Effects of Messaging on Expectations and Understanding of Long COVID: An Online Randomised [... want %more?] → https://www.virology.ws/2022/01/26/trial-by-error-does-long-covid-need-rebranding-as-ongoing-covid-19-recovery/ | 08:49 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Daily Discussion Thread | January 26, 2022: Please refer to our Wiki for more information on COVID-19 and our sub. You can find answers to frequently asked questions in our FAQ , where there is valuable information such as our: → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/sd0sas/daily_discussion_thread_january_26_2022/ | 09:08 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Two-thirds with Omicron say they have had Covid before → https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/sd13z8/twothirds_with_omicron_say_they_have_had_covid/ | 09:38 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Marc Veldhoen (@Marc_Veld): Covid cases starting to flatline at high levels, scientists warn independent.co.uk/news/health/co… → https://twitter.com/Marc_Veld/status/1486265882930257923 | 10:17 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Marc Veldhoen (@Marc_Veld): Vaccines protect against severe disease, a strong case for 3rd dose in vulnerable, the case for those in under 50s is much weaker but hinges on protection against infection and longcovid. A very clear video + discussion.youtu.be/wkz1ln5AJ5Q → https://twitter.com/Marc_Veld/status/1486269326713888768 | 10:37 |
| Brainstorm | New from StatNews: Why Hong Kong may become a living laboratory in search for Covid-19 answers: About 30% of adults 80 and older have received two doses of vaccine, and only 16% of nursing home residents are vaccinated, making Hong Kong a good place to compare… → https://www.statnews.com/2022/01/26/hong-kong-may-become-living-laboratory-covid19-answers/ | 10:47 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Marc Veldhoen (@Marc_Veld): The headline should have been: SARS-COV-2 cases starting to flatline at high levels. Cases of the disease, COVID-19, are reducing.@Independent → https://twitter.com/Marc_Veld/status/1486275535646957569 | 10:57 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Marc Veldhoen (@Marc_Veld): "for a long time now the right’s ongoing propaganda campaign against and organized political resistance to vaccination, among other public-health protocols, has been killing many, many Americans for no reasonable, ethically justifiable social purpose." → https://twitter.com/Marc_Veld/status/1486282997687107584 | 11:26 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Marc Veldhoen (@Marc_Veld): Multiple Early Factors Anticipate Post-Acute COVID-19 SequelaeSome insights in risk factors for longcovid symptoms.-autoantibodies, viremia and comorbidities-Reactivation of latent viruses-post-acute expansion of cytotoxic T cellscell.com/cell/fulltext/… [... want %more?] → https://twitter.com/Marc_Veld/status/1486286011739119617 | 11:36 |
| Brainstorm | New from ECDC: ECDC: Data on the daily number of new reported COVID-19 cases and deaths by EU/EEA country → https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/publications-data/data-daily-new-cases-covid-19-eueea-country | 12:25 |
| Brainstorm | New from ECDC: Data on COVID-19 vaccination in the EU/EEA: Data in various file formats with information on COVID-19 vaccine doses administered, manufacturers, and target groups in the EU/EEA. → https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/publications-data/data-covid-19-vaccination-eu-eea | 13:04 |
| de-facto | .title https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1473309921007647 | 13:53 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From www.sciencedirect.com: Safety and immunogenicity of an AS03-adjuvanted SARS-CoV-2 recombinant protein vaccine (CoV2 preS dTM) in healthy adults: interim findings from a phase 2, randomised, dose-finding, multicentre study - [...] | 13:53 |
| undefined_bob | hey de-facto how are you doing? | 13:55 |
| Brainstorm | New from Reddit (test): China_Flu: COVID Parenting Has Passed the Point of Absurdity → https://old.reddit.com/r/China_Flu/comments/sd5g9b/covid_parenting_has_passed_the_point_of_absurdity/ | 14:02 |
| Brainstorm | New from Science-Based Medicine: Super Immunity vs Anti-Vaxxers: Anti-vaxxers continue to spread demonstrable misinformation, while the evidence for the benefits of COVID vaccines grows. The post first appeared on Science-Based Medicine . → https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/super-immunity-vs-anti-vaxxers/ | 14:12 |
| rain2232 | Hi all guys | 14:17 |
| rain2232 | I need some advice | 14:17 |
| rain2232 | I haven't taken my shots, so my mother | 14:18 |
| rain2232 | I'm scared as I hear various news of people who have taken shots. some say it's good and some have died | 14:18 |
| rain2232 | where I live, only certain vaccines are available such as Astrazeneca, Sinopharm and .. | 14:18 |
| rain2232 | Don't know what to do | 14:19 |
| rain2232 | if someone could shed some light, that would be an ineffable kindess. | 14:20 |
| rain2232 | kindness * | 14:20 |
| peetaur | rain2232: in this channel, you'll get mostly the biased "shots are worth the risk regardless of your age group, health, etc." stuff | 14:20 |
| rain2232 | peetaur Hello! where could find some advice that's unbiased ? | 14:21 |
| peetaur | rain2232: in this world, there is nothing unbiased... just bias from lots of different angles | 14:21 |
| rain2232 | have you taken shots? if so, which brand, how many, and how are you now? | 14:21 |
| rain2232 | and how about your family? | 14:21 |
| JanC | no matter the age category, taking the vaccine is safer than getting COVID-19 | 14:27 |
| Atque | rain2232: I had 3 x Pfizer and no side effects. The gold standard now seems to be moderna. | 14:28 |
| JanC | define "no side effects"? :) | 14:29 |
| Atque | rain2232: The rational decision is getting vaccinated. Dying from vaccines occurs, but dying from covid is more likely. The risk profile favours vaccination. | 14:29 |
| Atque | JanC: It means I did not get side effects from the vaccine. | 14:30 |
| JanC | it's quite common to have a stiff upper arm or so, but that's not only because of the vaccine | 14:30 |
| JanC | just putting a needle in there can cause that | 14:31 |
| JanC | it's the only side-effect I had | 14:32 |
| JanC | and probably the most common one :) | 14:33 |
| rain2232 | Atque JanC Hello and thank you guys! | 14:34 |
| rain2232 | there is no moderna in my country .. | 14:34 |
| rain2232 | so for pfizer or johnson | 14:34 |
| JanC | Pfizer is probably best if you can get that | 14:34 |
| JanC | it has slightly more mild side-effects than Johnson & Astrazeneca IIRC, but also works better | 14:35 |
| JanC | I don't know anything about Sinopharm | 14:35 |
| JanC | generally, the vaccines that work better have slightly more side-effects also | 14:36 |
| Atque | Astra Zeneca is okay, but has a much worse side effect profile than Pfizer. | 14:36 |
| rain2232 | Well my mother can't take that, because it has heavy side effects and she has respiratory problems. | 14:37 |
| JanC | IIRC AstraZeneca is okay, except for some batches from one particular factory | 14:37 |
| rain2232 | If she could handle, it would be okay | 14:37 |
| JanC | I asume they fixed that by now (it was at leats a year ago) | 14:37 |
| Atque | Sinopharm doesn't seem to work very well. It uses a virus many people have had natural exposure to, so it is zero percent in some people. In people where it works, it was only 42%ish effective. | 14:37 |
| rain2232 | oh ... | 14:38 |
| rain2232 | how about cuban vaccine ? | 14:38 |
| rain2232 | Soberana or something it is that .. | 14:38 |
| JanC | if you mean it's adeno-virus-based, that doesn't mean it would be zero percent for those with previous exposure to adeno-viruses | 14:40 |
| JanC | pretty much everyone over the age of 2 or so has such exposure | 14:40 |
| rain2232 | so you guys think Cuban one is better than Sinopharm? | 14:41 |
| JanC | but they added the SARS-COV-2 typical spike protein to that adeno-virus | 14:41 |
| rain2232 | In Cuban one? | 14:41 |
| JanC | it's typical for adeno-virus vaccines (they exist for many other diseases too) | 14:42 |
| JanC | adeno-virus-based vaccines | 14:43 |
| rain2232 | sorry I don't understand what you mean by that, I'm not very good in biology. Does that mean bad or good? | 14:43 |
| JanC | adeno viruses tend to be not very dangerous, so they use a "dead" or "almost dead" version of it with some typical parts of another virus added to it to create vaccines | 14:45 |
| peetaur | rain2232: maybe due to stuff like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_antigenic_sin they are saying maybe you wont' gain more immunity... if the old immunity works vs the new sars-cov-2 spike + adenovirus, then it won't learn to make new antibodies | 14:46 |
| JanC | https://www.news-medical.net/health/What-are-Adenovirus-Based-Vaccines.aspx | 14:46 |
| JanC | peetaur: it probably explains why they are less effective (but also why they have less side-effects) | 14:48 |
| Brainstorm | New from BMJ Open: Acceptability of OP/Na swabbing for SARS-CoV-2: a prospective observational cohort surveillance study in Western Australian schools: Objectives When the COVID-19 pandemic was declared, Governments responded with lockdown and isolation measures to combat viral spread, including the closure of many [... want %more?] → http://bmjopen.bmj.com/cgi/content/short/12/1/e055217 | 14:51 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Office for National Statistics (ONS) (@ONS): Today’s headline results show #COVID19 infections continued to decrease in England, Wales and Scotland in the week ending 22 January 2022.The trend was uncertain in Northern Ireland ow.ly/cQfq50HEt7o pic.twitter.com/K5rJ2NkTzq → https://twitter.com/ONS/status/1486338648593375233 | 15:11 |
| Brainstorm | New from BBC Health: Two-thirds with Omicron say they have had Covid before: The latest findings hint at how common reinfections might be and who is more likely to catch Covid again. → https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-60132096 | 15:30 |
| xx | not getting the virus is safer than the vaccine, which is safer than getting the virus | 15:33 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): Today's @washingtonpost editorialwashingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/… Refuting the lies of Kennedy, Malone, Berenson and others, citing the striking reduction of deaths with vaccination pic.twitter.com/B4WwPw0FNS → https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1486347558527983616 | 15:41 |
| dTal | xx: accurate, if we assume you get to choose exactly one of the above | 15:42 |
| xx | yeah, few take the necessary precautions to not get infected in the first place, so the vaccine is a much simpler alternative | 15:44 |
| dTal | of course if we all had a magic "don't get the virus" button, we'd all be pushing that instead of getting vaccinated :p | 15:44 |
| xx | dTal: the magic button is "don't go outside, don't interact with humans" | 15:44 |
| xx | or hamsters | 15:44 |
| xx | or mink, or cats, or whatever other creature is around | 15:44 |
| xx | I haven't even seen a human in person since january 2nd | 15:45 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): Omicron infection susceptibility "91.2% of the Omicron infections in our study occurred in persons who were eligible for 1 or more vaccine doses at the time of PCR testing"medrxiv.org/content/10.110… pic.twitter.com/4MSyoMExtm → https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1486349108113653764 | 15:51 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: US Embassy in China asks State Department to let diplomats leave over Covid restrictions → https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/sd7moj/us_embassy_in_china_asks_state_department_to_let/ | 16:02 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): "How the Biden administration failed the Omicron test" @FT ft.com/content/449abc… @kiranstacey Highlighting the booster mess, a vaccine-centric strategy, and poor communication pic.twitter.com/McRNVc8UQk → https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1486353742597292034 | 16:11 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Theo Sanderson (@theosanderson): The majority of "Delta variant compatible" positive tests in the latest (excellent) @ONS data will not be Delta but BA.2 (which is technically also Omicron). ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulati… twitter.com/theosanderson/… pic.twitter.com/bTqV63Bu8z → https://twitter.com/theosanderson/status/1486355572228333574 | 16:21 |
| Brainstorm | New from BMJ: Covid-19: One in 23 people in England had infection in early January: Coronavirus infections in England were at their highest ever rate in early January this year, with an estimated one in 23 people infected, the ongoing REACT-1 monitoring study has reported.1Findings... → http://www.bmj.com/content/376/bmj.o222.short | 16:41 |
| lastshell | - | 16:49 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Prof. Shane Crotty (@profshanecrotty): Happy to see this Omicron T cell paper out! Impressive work by @Alba_Grifoni and the whole LJI team! twitter.com/alba_grifoni/s… → https://twitter.com/profshanecrotty/status/1486365351965126662 | 16:52 |
| Brainstorm | New from Contagion Live: NIH Updates Guidelines for Treating COVID-19 in Outpatients: With fewer monoclonal antibody treatments effective against the Omicron variant, the National Institutes of Health (NIH) now recommends direct-acting antivirals. → https://www.contagionlive.com/view/nih-updates-guidelines-for-treating-covid-19-in-outpatients | 17:02 |
| spass | I want to travel in mid March but hesitate in case it gets worse | 17:05 |
| xx | how did they even come up with the term 'social distancing'? Why wasn't it 'physical distancing'? | 17:08 |
| spass | xx: the Miracle of Public Relations and Marketing majors | 17:10 |
| Brainstorm | New from ClinicalTrials.gov: (news): SafeTy and Efficacy of Preventative CoVID Vaccines → https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT05208983 | 17:12 |
| spass | in my city, I almost feel like by public attitude I may be shamed to stop wearing a mask | 17:14 |
| spass | such is the power of the consensus shaped by typical media exposure , and herd mentality , like when going to war | 17:16 |
| Dredd | peetaur: Whilst it is technically a bias I would rather describe it as "The consensus in this channel is the vaccines are worth having" because bias would usually be used to describe a position that doesn't reach that consensus using data and analysis | 17:29 |
| Dredd | In this channel pretty much anything can be debated and if there's good evidence for it then it's welcome - those other views don't tend to do so well in here because the evidence of them is poor and / or the people presenting them aren't arguing that position well | 17:30 |
| Brainstorm | New from ClinicalTrials.gov: (news): Diagnostic Accuracy of Self-sampling Versus Healthcare Sampling for Coronavirus-Disease-2019 Detection. → https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT05209178 | 17:41 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Tulio de Oliveira (@Tuliodna): There is of course a lot of work needed to better characterize BA.1.1, BA.2, and BA.3. We in South Africa, are alerted but not too concerned given the Omicron wave is decreasing fast here. Of course, we will keep advancing science and communicate as more [... want %more?] → https://twitter.com/Tuliodna/status/1486384952858058755 | 18:11 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): There is no evidence of any adverse effect of Covid vaccines on fertility or pregnancy outcomes, here following in vitro fertilizationjournals.lww.com/greenjournal/F…@greenjrnl pic.twitter.com/oKsjijjJfr → https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1486387974153519105 | 18:21 |
| Dredd | ^ yay that's good | 18:25 |
| xx | wording. "No evidence" != "Evidence it does not affect it" | 18:29 |
| Brainstorm | New from NPR Science: The FDA limits the use of some monoclonal antibodies treatments: The Food and Drug Administration is curbing the use of two out of three monoclonal antibody treatments because new data shows they aren't effective against the omicron variant. → https://www.npr.org/2022/01/26/1075772530/the-fda-limits-the-use-of-some-monoclonal-antibodies-treatments | 18:40 |
| Dredd | xx: yes context is important. However if you have spent a lot of time looking for evidence and there isn't any that's different than not trying to find any evidence and just saying "there's no evidence" | 18:48 |
| Dredd | It's not possible generally to prove something isn't | 18:48 |
| xx | I'm mainly arguing the linguistics. They could easily say there's no evidence that coronavirus infects elephants. But that's not the same thing as saying "we tried infecting elephants with coronavirus, and they did not become infected", hence we have some evidence that they can't be infected. | 18:50 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): How do the Omicron mutations affect its binding to ACE receptor & result in loss of activity of most monoclonal antibodies?Elegant cryo-EM work by @veeslerlab and colleaguesRemodeled N-terminal domain and impact outside RBD, NTD [... want %more?] → https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1486395532989792256 | 18:50 |
| xx | it's that typical "There's no evidence he killed her" compared to "There's evidence he did not kill her" | 18:51 |
| LjL | xx, have you stopped beating your wife?* | 18:58 |
| LjL | ⁽* ᴰᶦˢᶜˡᵃᶦᵐᵉʳ: ⁿᵒ ᵉᵛᶦᵈᵉⁿᶜᵉ ᵉᶦᵗʰᵉʳ ʷᵃʸ ᶦˢ ᵃᵛᵃᶦˡᵃᵇˡᵉ⁾ | 18:59 |
| xx | good example of a loaded question :) | 18:59 |
| xx | alas I never had a wife to beat | 19:00 |
| LjL | i think some "there is no evidence" are arguably similar | 19:01 |
| LjL | there is an unspoken implication that the thing there is no evidence for is... either true or false, kind of depending on the direction the thing is going | 19:01 |
| xx | maybe I'm just said about all the incorrect statements around covid over the years | 19:02 |
| xx | *sad | 19:02 |
| spass | have to filter the flood, via trust level, like do you trust Topol if so why | 19:02 |
| spass | do you 'trust' fauci, or the CDC, if so how often | 19:03 |
| LjL | only on the odd days | 19:03 |
| LjL | but i don't see it as trusting. i don't really feel i trust this people/entities, but i feel their RSS feed may have information i want to look at | 19:04 |
| LjL | i guess it's equally true that when i see some other entities/people, i quickly get the feeling that i *don't* want to look at what they present | 19:04 |
| LjL | not sure if that's trust and lack thereof respectively, though | 19:05 |
| Tuvix | It's less a matter of trust, and more that the CDC's figureheads (which I'll point out Fauci is not, he works for NIH.) CDC's head is actually good at the science and talking *about* the science, but she's really bad when the thing she's asked to say doesn't match with the science. | 19:05 |
| LjL | so she's a bad liar? | 19:05 |
| Tuvix | That's not a bad summary, but things like "alternative" isolation guidelines are also driven by things like test shortages or economic tradeoffs. I'm not saying these are necessarily good reasons, but it complicates the PR message Walensky has to give, and she's very bad at such thingsl. | 19:06 |
| Tuvix | She's absolute rubbish at explaining it and even worse answering questions becuase she's more or less been told what to say. The CDC has people who know full well the emerging science (eg: the UKHSA estimate that 5% of people are still contagious 10 days after a test) but she can't get that deep into it on a 2-minute national TV interview segment. | 19:07 |
| spass | so 'the CDC' didn't follow the science on the 5 day isolation requirement, because they didn't make the decision? | 19:10 |
| Tuvix | There's also risk of backlash against guidelines; some states have gone so far as to ban mask requirements becuase the medical science is now a political battleground. No amount of the head of an agency talking will change that. | 19:10 |
| Tuvix | spass: It was largely a lack of test availability, and the issue of needing people in truely critical jobs. The rub though is that the 5/10 day guidance assumes people returning after the 5 days (which UKHSA shows around 31% of people are still contagious), those people need to wear high-quality KN95 or N95 masks, all the time, when around others. | 19:11 |
| Tuvix | The sad reality is that people don't use masks where it's required. I see it all the time with people around me intentionally ignoring rules businesses post that do require masks. You'd be naïve to think that just becuase that's the CDC guidance that people will do it either. | 19:12 |
| Tuvix | Really returning while still positive is a bad idea. High-quality masks work quite well, but only when worn properly and at all times in congregate settings. Most people do not use the right type of mask, or even if they do they don't put them on or fit them properly. | 19:15 |
| spass | well, the problem is that rule, is then used to require Nurses and Airlines Stewards, etc to return to work sick or infectious | 19:21 |
| spass | its not just 'guidance' its turned into corporation/company policy | 19:21 |
| Tuvix | It's places like nursing staff that need such extreme rules in areas where there are literally no more nurses to work and that's one way you can shore up staffing shortages. Typically such healthcare works are not only masked (far better than most of the public I'll point out) but also usually only work with COVID-positive patients. | 19:23 |
| Tuvix | In places like the US here where some of our hospitals are in very bad shape with the Omicron surge, we could of course vastly reduce the strain on hospitals with more vaccination, but there are social and political barriers to that :\ | 19:24 |
| xx | it would take too long to reduce the strain on hospitals if people started getting vaccinated *now* | 19:24 |
| Tuvix | Around 90% of the COVID patients in hospitals are unvaccinated, and some of them are spewing conspiracy theories to their doctors right up until they die. | 19:24 |
| xx | it only becomes "protective" after some time | 19:25 |
| xx | instead strict requirements on getting regularly tested are in order | 19:25 |
| Tuvix | xx: For this current wave? Perhaps, but Omicron will still be around in more than a few weeks, and the protection does start to ramp up after just a few days. Sure, it won't be as good as 2 weeks after the 2nd primary dose, but better than nothing. | 19:25 |
| xx | aren't there already talks of renaming B.2 to something else than omicron? | 19:25 |
| Tuvix | For the unvaccinated, the best thing they could do would be to go seek vaccination immediately. | 19:26 |
| xx | for the still unvaccinated, the best they could do for their own health and our health would be to stay away from everyone | 19:26 |
| Tuvix | Even with the slightly reduced VE against Omicron, the data remains quite clear the the unvaccinated do much more poorly, and we're seeing this reflected in the hospitalization and death statistics week after week. | 19:26 |
| Tuvix | That's not practical and on some level you realize that. | 19:27 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Marc Veldhoen (@Marc_Veld): Structural basis of SARS-CoV-2 Omicron immune evasion and receptor engagementRemodeling of interactions between the Omicron RBD and human ACE2 likely explains the enhanced affinity for the host receptor relative to the ancestral virus.science.org/doi/10.1126/sc… → https://twitter.com/Marc_Veld/status/1486404609988087809 | 19:28 |
| Tuvix | They're supposed to never go shopping, see others, take their vehicles in for maintenance, have a plumber over when their pipes or sewer need attention? If that's seriously your suggestion, you're just detached with how humans function. | 19:28 |
| xx | I know how humans managed to survive during yugoslavia war and other wars, people can easily give up on those luxuries for a while | 19:29 |
| xx | at least for long enough for the pandemic to pass | 19:29 |
| Tuvix | They don't view it as that much of a threat, so they won't do it. | 19:29 |
| xx | and the pandemic would have passed a long time ago had humans given up on luxuries | 19:29 |
| Tuvix | So you go and do that then. Glad to hear you've Solved™ COVID for us all. Please go and share the good word so we can get spread down to zero. Thanks for your contribution to society. | 19:30 |
| spass | so, the answer is to allow infectious nurses to work ? and thereby create more cases | 19:30 |
| xx | americans and youngsters in general can't even imagine what it's like to not get any messages from loved ones, and the only way of contacting them being letters mailed through post due to interrupted telephone lines, and having to wait. Instead they now have videocalls, and can't imagine not meeting people for a couple of weeks? | 19:31 |
| Tuvix | spass: Only when there's an extreme need, and not taking such measures is actually worse for the hospital system in question. It's a last-ditch effort to avoid an even larger loss of life. | 19:31 |
| spass | ? , not sure they are just going to work with CV patients , and not expose other staff | 19:31 |
| Tuvix | Sure, that's a risk, but it's a calculated one, and the medical industry takes separation of wings and proper PPE use very seriously. | 19:32 |
| xx | spass: infected people being around other infected people is still a bad idea. There's a reason we advise HIV+ ones to still use protection when having sex with other HIV+ ones. | 19:32 |
| spass | yes, I've worked in healthcare, don't think that broad of a statement works, though | 19:33 |
| Tuvix | When the alternative is patients not getting seen, you're really just picking the least awful of 2 bad choices. | 19:33 |
| Tuvix | The real solution is not to overwhelm the hospital system; COVID hasn't helped, and trouble getting people vaccinated also is a major contributing factor. In the US, Canada, and many other countries, nursing staff have been an issue for years leading up to the pandemic though. | 19:34 |
| xx | if I had to pick out of those awful choices, I'd pick the one where unvaccinated corona patients don't get seen | 19:34 |
| spass | it would be nice, if the logic was such, my understand is the Delta Airlines CEO, was the main influencers on the CDCs choice to go to 5 days, not the for-profit hospitals | 19:35 |
| xx | there's sufficient evidence that myocarditis can happen to young people infected with corona if they work too much, and doctors/nurses can fall in that category | 19:35 |
| Tuvix | And that's not legal xx; we've been over this countless times here. To actually do that, you'd need to change the legal frameworks, which you wouldn't be able to do if you were in a position to decide how a hospital system responded, since in that position you'd be bound by law, provided you didn't want to get arrested. | 19:35 |
| xx | I'm saying they are exposing doctors/nurses to potential heart problems if they make them work despite being infected | 19:36 |
| xx | and I'd pick the lives of doctors/nurses any day over the lives of unvaccinated corona patients | 19:36 |
| Tuvix | It's their job. Again, it would indeed have been great if we hadn't globally under-funded and under-supported public health for decades, but that's not the world we live in. Pining for such a reality doesn't do much good. | 19:37 |
| xx | lots of laws have been introduced and changed during this pandemic, so it is not unthinkable that this law could be changed too | 19:37 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Marc Veldhoen (@Marc_Veld): ONS report on 2x vax and effect on longcovid. "COVID-19 infection was associated with a 41.1% decrease in the odds of self-reported long COVID at least 12 weeks later" Here is where the 3rd booster may make a difference still.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulati… → https://twitter.com/Marc_Veld/status/1486406170646622208 | 19:37 |
| spass | xx: if public health wasn't driven by for-profit business .. | 19:38 |
| xx | Tuvix: no, it's not their job. Only a soldiers job is to die while doing the job. Police/healthcare/firemen, ... are not expected to give up their lives. | 19:38 |
| xx | soldiers are the only ones who are legally denied some very significant rights. To expect the same of doctors is horrible. | 19:40 |
| Tuvix | xx: Enough. You've gone down this road before and you're not contributing anything new this time around. Health care cannot just stop serving people, and hospitals don't have the lxuury or nice cushy 9 to 5 hour jobs at a desk with flexible time off for mental health needs. | 19:41 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Marc Veldhoen (@Marc_Veld): Heroic effort; all VoCs; vaccines and many patients and over several time intervals! Check it out.Excellent IgG response and serum IgA. pic.twitter.com/2rCWmOCWIT → https://twitter.com/Marc_Veld/status/1486409400935927808 | 19:47 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID19 Vaccine Tracker: valerie: AnGes: AG0301-COVID19 → https://covid19.trackvaccines.org/vaccines/3/ | 20:06 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID19 Vaccine Tracker: valerie: Arcturus Therapeutics Inc: ARCT-165 → https://covid19.trackvaccines.org/vaccines/148/ | 20:16 |
| LjL | <Brainstorm> New from Politico: Aid and development: Denmark becomes first EU country to scrap all COVID-19 restrictions → https://www.politico.eu/article/denmark-becomes-first-eu-country-to-scrap-all-covid-19-restrictions/ | 20:18 |
| LjL | also one of the first countries to sequence a lot of BA.2, and originally one of the first to sequence a lot of Omicron | 20:18 |
| LjL | what's the reasoning here, "welp this one's too fast, can't do nuffin' 'bout it anyways"? | 20:19 |
| xx | and people doubted those who said a week ago that countries are declaring it over | 20:19 |
| spass | it gets confusing, when the for-profit motive detracts from the nursing care that is considered 'quality' , IMO, and seems to only ever go in one direction | 20:19 |
| LjL | xx, such predictions have been made already a number of times | 20:20 |
| LjL | broken clock right twice a day etc | 20:20 |
| xx | hah, true | 20:20 |
| xx | well this time they were right | 20:20 |
| LjL | i'm definitely noticing that many countries seem to be going with some of the same lego pieces, which could come together to build a covid-overness | 20:20 |
| LjL | 1) tests are bad, don't get tested 2) maybe we'll stop counting deaths | 20:20 |
| LjL | the big ones i recall right now at least | 20:21 |
| LjL | i'd add 3) fewer restrictions but that's a pretty obvious one | 20:21 |
| spass | LjL: in february hospitals won't be required to report deaths, in the US, as I understand it | 20:23 |
| xx | won't report deaths? What are they gonna do? Declare them as missing? | 20:23 |
| LjL | i'm sure it's subtler than that | 20:23 |
| LjL | please peruse these articles about it for me | 20:23 |
| spass | with all the mailorder test kits going out in february, probably will reduce the PCR CV+ test results | 20:23 |
| LjL | 'cause i'm lazy | 20:23 |
| LjL | well, i *did* find it somewhat interesting that while european countries had a test shortage and started saying "don't get tested, testing bad!", the US bought enough to give 4 free ones to each citizen | 20:24 |
| spass | its easier to swallow when cloaked in complicated legalese the not reporting | 20:25 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): This is also consistent across all age group in both countries. And in Switzerland ZERO deaths for vaccinated and boosted through age 70. pic.twitter.com/xtbfwUPbhP → https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1486418991463628801 | 20:26 |
| LjL | spass, xx: i think these are the two documents that are at least claimed by some to mean "the US wants to stop reporting COVID deaths as such" https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2787944 https://files.zotero.net/eyJleHBpcmVzIjoxNjQzMjI1MjU1LCJoYXNoIjoiYTM5YjdhMTdhMjE3NDY5NDlhZTIwMzAxNTc0NzQxMDkiLCJjb250ZW50VHlwZSI6ImFwcGxpY2F0aW9uXC9wZGYiLCJjaGFyc2V0IjoiIiwiZmlsZW5hbWUiOiJDT1ZJRC0xOSBHdWlkYW5jZSBmb3IgSG9zcGl0YWwgUmVwb3J0aW5nIGFuZCBGQVFzLnBkZiJ9/ae39 | 20:27 |
| LjL | 88c78cd3edfd42dd08ef476c1b1b4f4ae3651eb52fab3cd1d52862d0473f/COVID-19%20Guidance%20for%20Hospital%20Reporting%20and%20FAQs.pdf the latter is quite long but is actual guidance, the former is "just" an opinion from government advisors | 20:27 |
| LjL | nice link zotero | 20:27 |
| xx | what an ugly url | 20:27 |
| LjL | let's make it just this instead https://www.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/covid-19-faqs-hospitals-hospital-laboratory-acute-care-facility-data-reporting.pdf | 20:27 |
| LjL | xx, yeah it's the URL to the saved snapshot in my zotero | 20:27 |
| LjL | annoyingly it didn't store the originating URL for some reason | 20:28 |
| xx | "This field has been made inactive for the federal data collection. Hospitals no longer need to report these data elements to the federal government. No change is required to reporting templates. (Previous day’s COVID-19 deaths)" | 20:29 |
| xx | so weird | 20:29 |
| LjL | context from key passage of the Jama article | 20:30 |
| LjL | The “new normal” requires recognizing that SARS-CoV-2 is but one of several circulating respiratory viruses that include influenza, respiratory syncytial virus (RSV), and more. COVID-19 must now be considered among the risks posed by all respiratory viral illnesses combined. Many of the measures to reduce transmission of SARS-CoV-2 (eg, ventilation) will also reduce transmission of other respiratory viruses. Thus, policy makers should retire previous pub | 20:30 |
| LjL | lic health categorizations, including deaths from pneumonia and influenza or pneumonia, influenza, and COVID-19, and focus on a new category: the aggregate risk of all respiratory virus infections. | 20:30 |
| xx | well makes sense, we could eradicate all existing airborne viruses that have only a human reservoir if everyone wore the mask | 20:31 |
| LjL | it also makes sense to promote better air circulation etc | 20:32 |
| LjL | but it's one of those things that "make sense" on paper but that make one wonder whether the real objective isn't just to fudge COVID reporting, and the rest is handwaving that may not really happen | 20:32 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID19 Vaccine Tracker: valerie: Arcturus Therapeutics Inc: ARCT-154 → https://covid19.trackvaccines.org/vaccines/140/ | 20:36 |
| LjL | https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=endemic%2Cepidemic%2Cpandemic&year_start=1800&year_end=2019&corpus=26&smoothing=1# | 20:43 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: We’re medical professionals with knowledge on the Omicron variant and vaccines, ask us anything about the state of the pandemic: Hi! We’re here to answer your questions on the COVID-19 virus, including the new Omicron variant and vaccinations. [... want %more?] → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/sdedmx/were_medical_professionals_with_knowledge_on_the/ | 20:46 |
| LjL | apparently CDC people | 20:47 |
| xx | don't trust CDC, they knowingly release incomplete information to the point of being lies or at the very least misleading | 20:48 |
| LjL | i would asy: Is is true that [government advisers are recommending no longer counting COVID deaths as separate from other respiratory diseases](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2787944), and that [official guidance to that effect has been issued](https://www.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/covid-19-faqs-hospitals-hospital-laboratory-acute-care-facility-data-reporting.pdf)? | 20:49 |
| xx | in probably a few years, someone will sue the CDC for causing needless deaths | 20:49 |
| LjL | however, i cannot ask that, because r/Coronavirus appears to be shadowbanning me | 20:49 |
| LjL | i messaged the r/Coronavirus mods, i really don't know what i did to upset them enough that they'd not even ban me properly but shadowban me | 20:58 |
| xx | I should have a look where the options to shadowban are | 20:59 |
| LjL | xx, planning to shadowban me from more places? i don't think there's an actual option to do that, actually, you can be shadowbanned from reddit in its entirety, but i believe to do it on a subreddit, you need to set up the automoderator to do it | 21:01 |
| LjL | which is partly what surprises me, i don't know how i've possibly made someone mad enough to do that | 21:01 |
| xx | nah, I rarely ban people, others do that | 21:01 |
| xx | people get mad over the weirdest things | 21:02 |
| Brainstorm | New from Contagion Live: Young Men at Increased Risk of Myocarditis After mRNA COVID-19 Vaccination: Overall risk of myocarditis after COVID-19 mRNA vaccination is rare, but more likely among persons under 24 years and male. → https://www.contagionlive.com/view/young-men-at-increased-risk-of-myocarditis-after-mrna-covid-19-vaccination | 21:05 |
| xx | men in general seem to have worse outcomes | 21:06 |
| lastshell | https://people.com/human-interest/veteran-and-longtime-nurse-dies-of-covid-after-testing-positive-at-work/ | 21:20 |
| Brainstorm | New from StatNews: Health: Hospitals are denying transplants for patients who aren’t vaccinated against Covid, with backing from ethicists → https://www.statnews.com/2022/01/26/hospitals-are-denying-transplants-for-patients-who-arent-vaccinated-against-covid-with-backing-from-ethicists/ | 21:24 |
| Tuvix | Now that actually has some interesting implications, since transplant patients are typically scored in terms of where they rank in the waiting list for organs from donors based on their likelyhood of survival and outcomes. | 21:26 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): New on #LongCovid and the lungs"COVID-19 causes a prolonged change to the airway immune landscape in those with persistent lung disease, with evidence of cell death and tissue repair linked to ongoing activation of cytotoxic T cells."cell.com/immunity/fullt… [... want %more?] → https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1486436404112490498 | 21:34 |
| LjL | ublx, ↑ | 21:37 |
| ublx | hmm | 21:41 |
| Brainstorm | New from ##covid-19 Zotero group: Immuno-proteomic profiling reveals aberrant immune cell regulation in the airways of individuals with ongoing post-COVD-19 respiratory disease: Type Journal Article Author Bavithra Vijayakumar Author Karim Boustani Author Patricia P. Ogger Author Artemis Papadaki Author James Tonkin [... want %more?] → https://www.zotero.org/groups/covid_links/items/E5ANJIF9 | 21:44 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID19 Vaccine Tracker: valerie: Altimmune Inc: AdCOVID → https://covid19.trackvaccines.org/vaccines/75/ | 21:53 |
| rpifan | so my great aunt died from covid | 21:55 |
| aruns | Sorry to hear that rpifan | 21:59 |
| Tuvix | Our condolences. It's one thing to see the stats in the news and statistics, but it's another when it hits someone you know. | 22:02 |
| rpifan | yea but she was a huge antivaxer and quite morbidly obese | 22:04 |
| xx | Tuvix: so when hospitals say what I say, it's ok? | 22:04 |
| rpifan | so its sad but also well idk | 22:04 |
| Tuvix | xx: They're not refusing to admit or treat all patients. Transplant priority lists already have to factor in many of these complex issues of years of life, quality of life, odds of surviving <X> number of weeks/months/years. | 22:05 |
| Tuvix | Surely you can appreciate the distinction in these things with how long you've spent in this channel and the kinds of discussion, science, and feeds that are posted here. | 22:05 |
| xx | I never said *all* patients, I said unvaccinated | 22:05 |
| Tuvix | All unvaccinated, yes. | 22:06 |
| xx | the transplant discussion just adds that angle of "why bother fixing someone up if they are more likely to die afterwards anyway if they refuse to get the vaccine" | 22:06 |
| xx | especially when healthcare becomes a scarce resource, as it is now | 22:06 |
| Tuvix | rpifan: Sure, perhaps not suprising given a list of co-morbidities, but it's still different when it's someone you know vs. "just another number" in a figure so large it's frankly hard to conceptualize. | 22:06 |
| rpifan | that is true | 22:07 |
| xx | I see the nuance that spending doctor time, hospital resources, money on people who are not willing to protect themselves, at the expense of people who are willing to protect themselves, is a problem that needs to be fixed | 22:08 |
| xx | it just becomes much less murky in transplant cases | 22:08 |
| xx | basically I say we should prioritize people who have a higher chance of surviving a procedure, and surviving for longer after the procedure, at the expense of those who have a lower probability - at a time when resources are scarce | 22:09 |
| Tuvix | xx: Do you drink, ever? Do you ever get less than 8 hours a day of sleep, perhaps by staying up too late? Why should _you_ get treated at a hospital over someone who does not drink at all, and who stays well under the sodium intake recommended for adults? You do see the end-game of what you're advocating, yes? | 22:09 |
| xx | I fully accept that someone younger then me should get priority at hospital, yes | 22:10 |
| Tuvix | Your statements are bordering on insulting the intelligence of everyone here, and you have the same boring trope every time you bring this nonsense up. | 22:10 |
| xx | and yes, I see the endgame where people have a stronger incentive to take care of themselves, which is something I'll always support | 22:10 |
| Tuvix | Then, as I've said before, go do something to fix the legal framework that doesn't allow that to happen. Doctors are legally and morally prevented from doing that, and it's poor public health. You don't refuse to treat people who have these kinds of problems. We tried the punitive framework with drugs here in the US for example, and it's worked quite poorly. | 22:13 |
| Tuvix | You can't just punish drug or alcohol abusers into better lifestyles; it just doesn't work. | 22:13 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID19 Vaccine Tracker: valerie: Aivita Biomedical Inc: AV-COVID-19 → https://covid19.trackvaccines.org/vaccines/74/ | 22:13 |
| xx | but that article above shows that doctors are *not* legally prevented from doing it. They select vaccinated over unvaccinated, due to longer term prediction that vaccinated have a higher chance of survival. | 22:16 |
| Tuvix | You're mixing up points here. Your viewpoint is that unvaccinated shouldn't be treated at all. | 22:17 |
| xx | at a time of hospital resource scarcity | 22:17 |
| Tuvix | This was about a specific issue that *already* has a set of criteria to select who is eligible for an organ transplant. | 22:17 |
| Tuvix | You *CANNOT* turn people away from a hospital. Period. | 22:17 |
| xx | I wouldn't care if we had just one covid patient in the world, it's not gonna stress the system | 22:17 |
| dTal | Tuvix, xx's viewpoint is that humankind should go extinct, and they profess to be operating under no ethical framework. | 22:23 |
| dTal | That makes it rather difficult to establish any kind of basis upon which to discuss what "ought" to be done. | 22:24 |
| Tuvix | Yea, I realize this, I'm just fruitlessly hoping to provide an opening to think slightly more critically about the ethics involved and the problems with such an approach. | 22:24 |
| Arsanerit | Tuvix: what if the hospital is full? | 22:24 |
| Arsanerit | a hospital in Amsterdam went bankrupt and all patients had to be moved | 22:25 |
| xx | Tuvix: I don't know much about ethics, it's not my area of interest, but if behavioral neuroscience is related, then "As controversial as it may be, we should deprioritize the eligible unvaccinated patients during medical triage. It’s a free country, and you can absolutely choose not to get the vaccine. But choices have consequences, and the willingly unvaccinated have made this consequence | 22:26 |
| xx | necessary." | 22:26 |
| xx | from https://ncpolicywatch.com/2021/08/12/should-the-unvaccinated-be-a-lower-priority-for-health-care/ | 22:26 |
| Tuvix | Arsanerit: Here in the US hospitals do go on what's known as "divert" where they move trauma intake to the next-best-located hospital. They still can't turn people away, but in practice this means EMS and emergency-service degrades for everyone in in the impacted region | 22:27 |
| xx | dTal: what even is "ethical framework"? Is that like religion? | 22:27 |
| Tuvix | This is very similar to most other modern countries; UK for instance has publicly stated similar degredation in services as pandemic stress on top of an already-ill-equipped public health framework has had to deal with similar strains. | 22:27 |
| Tuvix | xx: https://journalofethics.ama-assn.org/article/triage-and-ethics/2002-01 | 22:28 |
| xx | yes, and I'm arguing that vaccination status should be a part of triage | 22:29 |
| xx | whereas, if I understand your viewpoint correctly, you're arguing that vaccination status should be irrelevant and everyone should receive same care | 22:29 |
| Tuvix | It *IS* . They can't stand treatment delays, which is part of the document I linked, had you bothered to read it before commenting. | 22:29 |
| Tuvix | The fact that you didn't read it means that you're not here to have an intelligent discussion, but here to push your agenda. That's rude, and frankly demonstrates your lack of care to undersatnd the underlying issues. | 22:29 |
| Tuvix | The real irony is that you feint interest in understanding this with a mock-question, inquiring if this is akin to religion. | 22:30 |
| Tuvix | Your thinly veiled attempt to ask a question to which you have nearly zero interst in really understanding is, as aforementioned, an insult to the intelligence of those here interested to actually discuss these matters. | 22:30 |
| xx | well I really don't know what to understand under the term "ethical framework" and to me it sounds like religious terminology | 22:30 |
| xx | I have non-zero interst in really understanding this, because I don't get why our opinion differs | 22:32 |
| dTal | I've join ##philosophy to carry on the discussion about ethical frameworks, if anyone's interested; I see xx is already there | 22:33 |
| Tuvix | Why bother asking a question to which you have no interest in broadening an undstanding of? At that point please do us all the benefit of not brining items up for discussion for which you have no interest in debating. I linked you an article providing a founding framework, and one of the *core* points it illustrates is directly topical to this discussion. | 22:33 |
| xx | huh? Where do you see me express that I have no interest? | 22:34 |
| Tuvix | This is now the third time I have made a reference to this core component as applies to this discussion, and I presume will be the 3rd time it's ignored, seemingly intentionally. If you have no interest in a discussion or debate on merits, please do us all the favor of not brining such items up for discussion in the first place. | 22:34 |
| Tuvix | < xx> I have non-zero interst in really understanding this […] | 22:34 |
| Tuvix | Right there. | 22:34 |
| xx | *non*-zero | 22:34 |
| xx | because you claimed I have *zero* | 22:35 |
| Tuvix | Then maybe read the article before supplying a rebuttal that is no differnet than your earlier argument/ | 22:35 |
| Tuvix | It's a dozen paragraphs long; you obviously haven't read it. That's really a shame. | 22:35 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Marc Veldhoen (@Marc_Veld): COVID-19 causes a prolonged change to the airway immune landscape in those with persistent lung disease, with evidence of cell death and tissue repair linked to ongoing activation of cytotoxic T cells. These abnormalities resolved over time.cell.com/immunity/fullt… → https://twitter.com/Marc_Veld/status/1486452666779713542 | 22:43 |
| xx | Tuvix: I've read that article and there's nothing I'd outright disagree with in it. I don't even see how it differs from what I am saying. | 22:46 |
| Tuvix | Your proposal would result in higher death tolls by leaving the unvaccinated untreated, because many of them can be saved. | 22:46 |
| Tuvix | Obviously they could have been saved one hell of a lot easier had they been vaccinated, but short of holding them down and forcing a needle into them (illegal, I'll point out in most countries,) treating them at intake is the next-best option. | 22:47 |
| spass | have to be better than a libertarian | 22:47 |
| spass | and dog eat dog, already too much of that | 22:47 |
| spass | scotus won't even allow mandates for large businesses with covid at a peak | 22:48 |
| Tuvix | spass: Indeed, but this is the fundamental argument this chatter here likes to make, and taken to an extreme it's considered repulsive and non-viable to most modern countries. | 22:48 |
| Tuvix | True, although the recent SCOTUS decision is, at least officially, more a factor of who issued the order; OSHA is an "Agency" vs. a legistlative or executative body. | 22:49 |
| Tuvix | This is itself an intersting political question: had congress issue a law, would SCOTUS have taken up a challenge to it? Perhaps, but that's less likely given the division in certainly the US congress right now. I'd argue an executive order would have been equally likely to be put under judicial review, and perhpas with the same outcome, but we can't replay the same event in history that way. | 22:50 |
| spass | well ofc the ruling is 6-3 which is going to gut many important things left, sadly | 22:51 |
| Tuvix | And at the end of the day, none of it matters unless such rules are inforced. My city used to (though no longer does) have a mask requirement for in-person shopping; it was ignored by a notable portion of the public. | 22:51 |
| Tuvix | Short of, say, arresting or fining say 40% (ballpark number from my limited shopping and similar trips) of the public, what can you do to meaningfully enforce this? | 22:52 |
| Tuvix | Sure, strict enforcement might improve public health outcomes, but at what cost? Would people protest? Riot? These are very real concerns if you're a local city or county with limited resources and funds to enact such enforcement. | 22:52 |
| Brainstorm | New from CIDRAP: News Scan for Jan 26, 2022: COVID and risk of readmission, death H5N1 avian flu in Namibia → https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2022/01/news-scan-jan-26-2022 | 22:53 |
| spass | yes, politics is downhill from culture, and the culture has been formed /transformed slowly since the 70s | 22:53 |
| Tuvix | You can't just concoct some notion of "ideal" behavior as some here seem to suggest and expect that a population will magically follow the guidelines just becuase they're rules instead of "suggestions" | 22:53 |
| spass | but then there is also the Federalist Society, and Citizens United | 22:53 |
| xx | Tuvix: "ideal" behavior is that people pay taxes, and most countries in the world have managed to get the population to do just that, despite protests etc. | 22:54 |
| xx | so the precedent exists that gov can make people do things | 22:54 |
| Tuvix | Heh, that's a lovely concept. Trump, as a case-example, seem sto have paid less taxes than I have annually, despite pulling in more money. That's certainly not fair. | 22:55 |
| Tuvix | But, again, even further off-topic now. | 22:55 |
| Brainstorm | New from CIDRAP: Report details where top 100 brand-name Rx drugs are made: Mary Van Beusekom | News Writer | CIDRAP News Jan 26, 2022 COVID has compounded how the lack of country-of-origin data can affect drug safety, affordability, availability, and national security. → https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2022/01/report-details-where-top-100-brand-name-rx-drugs-are-made | 23:02 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): New @NEJM The Moderna vaccine booster vs Omicron: neutralization antibody titer 20-fold higher than the 2nd dosenejm.org/doi/full/10.10… pic.twitter.com/eXOuGKoq1T → https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1486459180198232064 | 23:12 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): Omicron's immune evasive property has changed the landscape for what drugs and monoclonal antibodies (mAbs) maintain efficacy. @NEJM today, the anti-Covid pills hold up well, but not true for most of the mAbsnejm.org/doi/full/10.10… pic.twitter.com/ze6aQws0If → https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1486461444753281026 | 23:22 |
| spass | sometimes topol seems repetitive | 23:32 |
| LjL | he's linking to new studies, it's not like he's just repeating things to himself | 23:33 |
| LjL | the Moderna stuff is important for example because we had, or at least i had, no information on the *booster* since it's half the normal dose but all the previous studies were done on the full dose | 23:38 |
| Brainstorm | New from CIDRAP: Global COVID surge slows but quickens in multiple countries: Lisa Schnirring | News Editor | CIDRAP News Jan 26, 2022 Officials confirmed more than 21 million new global cases last week, the highest weekly total ever. → https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2022/01/global-covid-surge-slows-quickens-multiple-countries | 23:41 |
| LjL | it doesn't look like there's a whole lot of difference in neutralization between the half dose and the full dose, although the waning in time is only shown for aggregate data in the graph | 23:47 |
| Brainstorm | New from CIDRAP: US donates 400 million COVID-19 vaccine doses to COVAX: Stephanie Soucheray | News Reporter | CIDRAP News Jan 26, 2022 The US has donated more to COVAX than any other nation, with the latest shipments bound for Pakistan and Bangladesh. → https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2022/01/us-donates-400-million-covid-19-vaccine-doses-covax | 23:50 |
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