| Brainstorm | Updates for India: +155023 cases, +1100 deaths since 23 hours ago — Netherlands: +83034 cases, +8 deaths since 23 hours ago | 00:11 |
|---|---|---|
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: Majority of Canadians disagree with 'freedom convoy' on vaccine mandates and lockdowns → https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/sjxdr8/majority_of_canadians_disagree_with_freedom/ | 00:25 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Marc Veldhoen (@Marc_Veld): Besides these genetic factors, other contributing factors are low exposure to other coronaviruses, still developing repertoires of T and B cells in the very young. → https://twitter.com/Marc_Veld/status/1489380958151323654 | 00:34 |
| LjL | de-facto, i bet this is a crappy study, since i found it from the NYPost, and it's made by economists studying... deaths... but still, about lockdowns and stringency index: https://sites.krieger.jhu.edu/iae/files/2022/01/A-Literature-Review-and-Meta-Analysis-of-the-Effects-of-Lockdowns-on-COVID-19-Mortality.pdf | 00:54 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Switzerland: +21 deaths since 22 hours ago | 01:01 |
| LjL | A third factor that motivated our research was the fact that there was no clear negative correlation between the degree of lockdown and fatalities in the spring of 2020 (see Figure 2).Given the large effects predicted by simulation studies such as Ferguson et al. (2020), we would have expected to at least observe a simple negative correlation between COVID-19 mortality and the degree to which lockdowns were imposed.2 | 01:02 |
| LjL | this already seems like a silly assumption to me | 01:02 |
| LjL | lockdowns were imposed to a larger degree *in countries that had more fatalities* | 01:03 |
| LjL | so unless you're very careful in your timeframe choices to distinguish cause from effect, it seems obvious to me that you *won't* observe that | 01:03 |
| LjL | Italy had the earliest lockdown in Europe. it also had the most fatalities back then. duh! | 01:03 |
| LjL | well i'm not happy about this though | 01:10 |
| LjL | https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/sjxttx/covid_lockdowns_had_little_to_no_effect_on/ | 01:10 |
| LjL | the post got deleted as "Misleading title" | 01:10 |
| LjL | how is the title misleading?! the conclusions of the study may be *wrong*, but that's EXACTLY what the study claims | 01:10 |
| LjL | blatant censorship this | 01:12 |
| LjL | now i want to propagate this study that i would otherwise have assumed dubious | 01:12 |
| LjL | idiots | 01:12 |
| * leonarth good night everyone! | 01:16 | |
| xx | "while studies that meet 2 of 4 quality measures find a small effect on COVID-19 mortality" | 01:19 |
| xx | probably because the title only focused on one part and not the other | 01:19 |
| xx | so it could be viewed as misleading | 01:19 |
| Brainstorm | New from ##covid-19 Zotero group: COVID lockdowns had ‘little to no effect’ on mortality rate, study says: Type Forum Post Author AmarHassan1 URL www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/sjxttx/covid_lockdowns_had_little_to_no_effect_on/ Date 2022-02-03T23:29:12.000Z Accessed 2022-02-04 00:15:53 Post Type Reddit Post [... want %more?] → https://www.zotero.org/groups/covid_links/items/J4C9HLIF | 01:22 |
| xx | I wouldn't include a reddit post of this in zotero, rather the actual study | 01:24 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): The notion that #SARSCoV2 will evolve to a less virulent strain may exemplify wishful thinking."But the HIV and SARS-CoV-2 pandemics show how viruses can and will evolve higher virulence when favored by natural selection"science.org/doi/10.1126/sc… [... want %more?] → https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1489394568000802819 | 01:32 |
| Brainstorm | New from ##covid-19 Zotero group: Using face masks in the community: first update - Effectiveness in reducing transmission of COVID-19: Type Web Page URL https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/publications-data/using-face-masks-community-reducing-covid-19-transmission Date 2021-02-15T13:00:00+0100 Accessed 2022-02-04 00:39:33 [... want %more?] → https://www.zotero.org/groups/covid_links/items/9ESHZZ6Q | 01:41 |
| LjL | xx, i've included both. the Reddit page is under the "Comments" folder (where Twitter posts also go), the study is under "Papers", and they are linked together which you can see if you click on the "Related" tab | 01:44 |
| LjL | Brainstorm just posted whatever appeared first on the RSS feed | 01:44 |
| LjL | xx, and it's r/worldnews, it's not their job to analyze whether the angle that a study took is misleading, only to see if the headline is misleading compared to the content of the article, and, at a stretch, whether the article is misleading compared to the content of the study | 01:45 |
| xx | mods doing mod things I guess | 01:46 |
| xx | few can be impartial | 01:46 |
| LjL | xx, note the irony of this automatic comment https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/sjxttx/covid_lockdowns_had_little_to_no_effect_on/hvhmd78/ they always add to things from the Daily Mail, NYPost, and things like those: they say they don't censor by source, but then i've noticed that pretty systematically, they find some bogus excuse to delete it | 01:46 |
| A_Dragon | bah thought you were talking about ~ongoing backend libera magic action~ | 01:46 |
| xx | A_Dragon: don't worry, you're safe :) | 01:47 |
| LjL | pretty hypocritical if you ask me. if you don't like those sources and think that's grounds to censor them, then just do that, don't claim you're doing *the very opposite of that* | 01:47 |
| xx | r/worldnews has a definite bias | 01:47 |
| xx | or, it's clear they have a bias, but I can't say exactly what the bias is | 01:47 |
| LjL | and it's not the first time i see specifically COVID content that is against what the mainstream view is like being removed, even when it comes with a study in support. it's just not fair and at some point my reaction is i start to really wonder if speaking against lockdowns or what-have-you is so taboo that even if there were good reasons to do it, it wouldn't be "allowed" | 01:48 |
| LjL | A_Dragon, when i get very mad at Reddit i probably cause netsplits | 01:48 |
| LjL | just so you know | 01:48 |
| xx | that's why some say that covid is not being fought on a scientific level, but on an ideological one | 01:48 |
| xx | science has taken a backseat since the vaccines were released | 01:49 |
| A_Dragon | LjL: nah we're deflecting STUFF right now :3 | 01:49 |
| A_Dragon | and no one sees it, so my job is done perfectly | 01:49 |
| xx | I see it ;) | 01:49 |
| LjL | A_Dragon, just like lockdowns and similar! when they work people get mad because "nothing happened, and yet you made us go through this" | 01:50 |
| xx | I see you do a great job too :) | 01:50 |
| LjL | except the point is exactly to make nothing happen | 01:50 |
| * LjL doesn't see it, unless it's the lame [m]-attack in #l ;( | 01:50 | |
| A_Dragon | there were about five thousand more you didnt see :P | 01:51 |
| A_Dragon | and on that note, bed | 01:52 |
| LjL | xx, look at the irony, i wanted to post that study to r/Coronavirus as well, but Reddit helpfully warned me that it had already been posted, so i ended up posting a *critique* of it https://np.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/sj7cf4/metaanalysis_from_john_hopkins_university_013122/hvhvmdr/ | 01:52 |
| LjL | A_Dragon, night | 01:52 |
| LjL | five thousands sounds nice | 01:52 |
| LjL | i've only dealt with like 200-300 at once in #ubuntu | 01:52 |
| xx | yeah the whole situation about this study is a mess | 01:55 |
| xx | people will just use it as a political ammunition instead of critically looking at it | 01:55 |
| LjL | xx, honestly i see people - including here - routinely and very casually attributing any effect to any cause. if cases go down somewhere in the summer, it's seasonality. maybe they had just spiked up in some other extra-hot place, but who cares, it's seasonal, it's gotta be seasonal. etc | 01:58 |
| LjL | i personally think 1) the precautionary principle is important, but 2) the evidence for many NPIs is indeed very flimsy, unless they are applied at a "total" scale like some Asian/Oceania countries did | 01:59 |
| LjL | i'll still wear a mask indoors and mostly outdoors too (well it's mandatory at the moment so i would not admit not to :P) but while being somewhat acutely aware that i don't think it makes *much* difference at least to my own risk | 02:00 |
| xx | meanwhile this pandemic could have completely destroyed the makeup industry if everyone worse the mask and eye protection at all times | 02:01 |
| xx | I'll still wear PPE even if it is officially declared over. I've enjoyed not having *any* respiratory issues these past years, not even a runny nose. | 02:02 |
| xx | there are lots more things that are stopped by PPE than just the coronavirus | 02:02 |
| LjL | oh no not the makeup industry! | 02:02 |
| LjL | then i would see people walk around in their natural bodies, don't do that to me | 02:02 |
| xx | it's big makeup calling the shots, haven't you heard? | 02:02 |
| LjL | xx, if the news goes viral, they'll makeup an excuse | 02:03 |
| xx | nah, they'll never throw makeup under the bus | 02:03 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Solomon Is.: +190 cases since a day ago | 02:03 |
| xx | that reminds me, I've still seen people share lipsticks... | 02:03 |
| xx | like, ignoring the whole corona situation, herpes is still a thing | 02:04 |
| xx | granted, there probably isn't a documented case of someone getting covid by sharing lipstick, but the mechanism is there | 02:04 |
| LjL | xx, good news is 90% of the population in italy already have herpes so chances are low they'll *catch* it | 02:04 |
| LjL | but maybe that's why 90% of the population have it ;( | 02:05 |
| xx | you can still get the same strain of herpes, just in a different place on your lips (or other body parts) | 02:05 |
| LjL | although i never shared any lipstick | 02:05 |
| xx | or you can get the other strain if you only had one so far | 02:05 |
| xx | humanity's hygiene standards could be improved... | 02:06 |
| xx | like why even go back to shaking hands ever? | 02:07 |
| LjL | xx, don't take this as a rebuttal with full certainty but i don't believe that's true, at least when it's around your face, but for the most part in other places too: herpes labialis lies dormant in your trigeminal nerve, then where exactly it flares up is kinda random. while when it comes to risk of getting it somewhere (some nerve) you don't already have it, if it's the same strain the risk is very low as your immune system will generally kill it before it takes | 02:07 |
| LjL | home in the nerve. | 02:07 |
| LjL | (you can get the other strain though) | 02:07 |
| LjL | xx, they're having the italy-specific prequel to Eurovision right now, and although all the spectators must wear a mask, on the floor people are actually back to kissing on the cheeks. which would be surprising, if you didn't consider there was also a comedy piece on how virologists cannot agree with other virologists and how they'll be out of a job "now that COVID is over" | 02:09 |
| xx | yeah I don't know all that much about herpes, but I know that it's a problem even if you already have it and come into contact with it again. Sharing lipstick means you can touch it (when fixing up smudges), and then you can touch your eyes, and then you have herpes in the eye which is pretty bad. | 02:10 |
| xx | basically people should avoid contact with any infectious agents, even if they are already infected | 02:11 |
| xx | oh and around the fingers is another common place for herpes | 02:11 |
| xx | physical contact with other humans should be advised against. The worst disease you get from physical contact is of course pregnancy ;) | 02:13 |
| LjL | don't | 02:13 |
| xx | heh | 02:14 |
| LjL | (also no, that's inaccurate, i'm quite unlikely to get it) | 02:14 |
| xx | (some have natural immunity) | 02:14 |
| * LjL seeks trouble: https://np.reddit.com/r/censorship/comments/sk0f83/rworldnews_routinely_uses_bogus_reasons_like/? | 02:26 | |
| xx | asking to have your reddit account banned? Brave. | 02:31 |
| LjL | xx, i linked to np. so no harm no foul | 02:31 |
| LjL | at most i get banned from r/worldnews | 02:31 |
| xx | unless you catch the attention of someone higher up | 02:31 |
| LjL | i also reported the post with reason "Other: spurious 'misleading title' flair" | 02:31 |
| LjL | Xi? | 02:32 |
| xx | gesundheit | 02:32 |
| xx | what I mean is that sadly reddit admins do browse reddit too, and some of them have a hard time separating being a user and being in position of power | 02:33 |
| xx | kinda like how irc opers shouldn't really be irc chatters, especially in some heated channels. It's unfortunate, but humans universally suck. | 02:34 |
| xx | hmm, maybe the "don't get high on your own product" is the related adage | 02:34 |
| xx | I hardly ever post anything on reddit, especially on the corona-related subreddits. It's just not worth it. | 02:36 |
| LjL | xx, unless you pay the irc opers to be opers without being chatters, i don't see that happening | 02:40 |
| LjL | %title https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_22_744 | 02:45 |
| Brainstorm | LjL: From ec.europa.eu: Press corner | European Commission | 02:45 |
| LjL | "Coronavirus: Commission proposes to extend the EU Digital COVID Certificate by one year" | 02:46 |
| LjL | "The EU Digital COVID Certificate is an EU success story." ← not sure they really needed such an overstatement | 02:47 |
| xx | a success story? When every restaurant is in the position to store the static(!) qr codes and sell them online? | 02:49 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Michael Lin, MD PhD (@michaelzlin): Today in Science, two prominent viral drug experts express concerns about molnupiravir, Merck's mutagenic COVID pill:1. Mutating patient DNA not ruled out2. Mutating viral genomes for sure, risk unknownCommon theme: We're gambling when using this [... want %more?] → https://twitter.com/michaelzlin/status/1489414600067993605 | 02:49 |
| LjL | xx, to be fair though, to the extent to which that's possible, it's the fault of those *checking* the certificate, as EU-wide, it was immediately clarified that the certificates would only make sense in conjunction with ID showing you actually are the person the certificate refers to | 02:52 |
| LjL | of course, that's cumbersome and slower to do, and some people will refuse to provide ID, and restaurants mostly just want to serve their customers, eh | 02:53 |
| LjL | but that's another matter, and the one that annoys me the most at the moment: if italy has 90% of the eligible population vaccinated, do we really need to make every single thing slower and create queues to check a stupid QR? | 02:53 |
| LjL | 90% is beyond the best expectations. if that's still not enough, it's the vaccines that are not good enough, not the QR codes | 02:54 |
| LjL | QR codes aren't boosters | 02:54 |
| LjL | and among the proposed "amendments", there is the thing i mentioned earlier: "To provide that certificates may be issued to persons participating in clinical trials for vaccines against COVID-19. The EU Digital COVID Certificate issued to trial participants may then be accepted by other Member States. This measure aims to encourage the continued development and study of vaccines against COVID-19." | 02:55 |
| LjL | good job EU, hindering vaccine trials | 02:55 |
| LjL | it's almost like these measures are put in place without intelligent people drawing them up and/or checking them | 02:55 |
| LjL | almost | 02:55 |
| xx | ethics is hindering vaccine trials, but that's not a discussion for here | 03:02 |
| xx | they were fine intentionally infecting cats and dogs, but it took *years* to try the same on humans | 03:03 |
| LjL | xx, that's apophasis | 03:03 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Cayman Is.: +2146 cases since a day ago — United Kingdom: +93257 cases, +325 deaths since 22 hours ago | 03:07 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): An important graph goes viralThe 99% reduction of death (97-fold decrease) by vaccination + booster I noted it, then @redouad made a nicer version, then @DLeonhardt published it @nytimes (slightly modified), then @CDCgov put it out (original [... want %more?] → https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1489429569685708805 | 03:47 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Canada: +13883 cases, +164 deaths since 22 hours ago | 04:10 |
| Brainstorm | New from Politico: Politics: Salvini’s face mask filter joins long list of digital touch-ups for politicians → https://www.politico.eu/article/salvinis-face-mask-filter-joins-long-list-of-digital-touch-ups-for-politicians/ | 04:45 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Solomon Is.: +6 deaths since 2 hours ago — Netherlands: +83065 cases, +14 deaths since 23 hours ago | 05:00 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: UK 'Stealth Omicron' cases double as new study suggests it is 33% more transmissible → https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/sk3aqh/uk_stealth_omicron_cases_double_as_new_study/ | 05:04 |
| LjL | i'm going to do something petty and personal | 05:48 |
| LjL | Brainstorm will stop posting anything from Reddit | 05:48 |
| LjL | https://imgur.com/a/DewVVYK | 05:48 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/WorldNews: worldnews: In World First, South Africa's Afrigen Makes mRNA COVID Vaccine Using Moderna Data → https://old.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/sk4287/in_world_first_south_africas_afrigen_makes_mrna/ | 05:52 |
| LjL | or https://imgur.com/a/yd6uEzu for my response | 05:53 |
| Brainstorm | New from ##covid-19 resources: Remove r/worldnews due to blatant bias: Petty and personal? Maybe, but this is too much: https://imgur.com/a/yd6uEzu → https://github.com/ljl-covid/links/commit/78a0331e5689398c45343410409916fbd0bd8eda | 06:02 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Belgium: +38027 cases, +53 deaths, +105019 tests (36.2% positive) since 23 hours ago | 06:02 |
| LjL | %title https://www.reddit.com/r/COVID19/comments/sjn1ie/sudden_rise_of_more_transmissible_form_of_omicron/ | 06:41 |
| Brainstorm | LjL: From www.reddit.com: Sudden rise of more transmissible form of Omicron catches scientists by surprise : COVID19 | 06:41 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Germany: +248652 cases since 23 hours ago — Cayman Islands, United Kingdom: +2146 cases since 2 days ago — Atacama, Chile: +614 cases, +1 deaths since 2 days ago — India: +2211 cases, +1611666 tests (0.1% positive) since 6 hours ago | 07:05 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Cyrus Shahpar (@cyrusshahpar46): New dashboard showing data from the National Wastewater Surveillance System. Plans are to expand this to cover all 50 states. covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tra… pic.twitter.com/jYvyV1Hs7i → https://twitter.com/cyrusshahpar46/status/1489471207216848897 | 07:40 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): New @CDCgov Reduction of death by vaccination and booster by age, per 100,00 people, vs unvaccinated, relative, with absolute data belowcovid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tra…Age 65+2 shot 92% reduced3 shot 99% reducedAge 50-642 shot 95% reduced3 shot 99% reduced [... want %more?] → https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1489496183575703554 | 08:18 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): Which goes along with this new data posted showing booster had vaccine effectiveness of >60% vs Omicron infectionscovid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tra… pic.twitter.com/CrKyrkVRH3 → https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1489499585210826752 | 08:27 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/Coronavirus: Daily Discussion Thread | February 04, 2022: Please refer to our Wiki for more information on COVID-19 and our sub. You can find answers to frequently asked questions in our FAQ , where there is valuable information such as our: → https://old.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/sk7uwz/daily_discussion_thread_february_04_2022/ | 09:05 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for France: +1289 cases since 11 hours ago | 10:00 |
| pwr22 | Seems that ozone seems a decent way to disinfect PPE: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32511511/ | 10:44 |
| pwr22 | LjL: ^ | 10:44 |
| Brainstorm | New from ProPublica: Inside ProPublica’s Article Layout Framework: by Rob Weychert ProPublica is a nonprofit newsroom that investigates abuses of power. Sign up to receive our biggest stories as soon as they’re published. Editorial design is a many-splendored thing. Cliché as it may [... want %more?] → https://www.propublica.org/article/inside-propublicas-article-layout-framework#1250914 | 11:10 |
| bn_mobile | Ads from Brainstorm ? | 11:17 |
| bn_mobile | LjL ? | 11:21 |
| ublx | the word "pandemic" appears on the page; maybe that's all it took to get caught in brainstorm's net | 11:41 |
| Brainstorm | New from BMJ: What do we know about covid vaccines and preventing transmission?: The range of vaccines developed in record time by pharmaceutical companies and research laboratories have helped quell the worst effects of SARS-CoV-2. But much of the focus of research has been on... → http://www.bmj.com/content/376/bmj.o298.short | 11:47 |
| Brainstorm | New from ECDC: ECDC: Data on the daily number of new reported COVID-19 cases and deaths by EU/EEA country → https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/publications-data/data-daily-new-cases-covid-19-eueea-country | 12:46 |
| Brainstorm | New from ECDC: Data on COVID-19 vaccination in the EU/EEA: Data in various file formats with information on COVID-19 vaccine doses administered, manufacturers, and target groups in the EU/EEA. → https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/publications-data/data-covid-19-vaccination-eu-eea | 12:56 |
| Brainstorm | New from Virology.ws: TWiV 861: Rough draft of Omicron origins: Nels joins TWiV to discuss hypotheses for the origins of Omicron, including that it came from mice or arose during chronic infection of an immunocompromised patient. Hosts: Vincent Racaniello, Rich Condit, Kathy Spindler, and Brianne [... want %more?] → https://www.virology.ws/2022/02/04/twiv-861-rough-draft-of-omicron-origins/ | 13:15 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Theo Sanderson (@theosanderson): The central estimate from the survey is also that 32% of NI is BA.2 twitter.com/BristOliver/st… → https://twitter.com/theosanderson/status/1489575299004174345 | 13:35 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Marc Veldhoen (@Marc_Veld): The simple numbers every government should use to fight anti-vaccine misinformationtheguardian.com/news/datablog/… → https://twitter.com/Marc_Veld/status/1489588741089939461 | 14:23 |
| Raf[m] | what would you say are the major sequence databases with covid samples. GenBank? GISAID? | 14:39 |
| Brainstorm | New from EMA: Human medicine assessment reports: (news): Human medicines European public assessment report (EPAR): Fluenz Tetra, influenza vaccine (live attenuated, nasal), Influenza, Human, Date of authorisation: 04/12/2013, Revision: 22, Status: Authorised → https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/medicines/human/EPAR/fluenz-tetra | 14:43 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Switzerland: +33268 cases, +19 deaths, +98517 tests (24.0% positive) since 23 hours ago — Germany: +247446 cases since 23 hours ago | 15:00 |
| Brainstorm | New from StatNews: Pharma: STAT+: Pharmalittle: SEC and FTC open probes into Biogen; South Africa’s Afrigen makes its own version of Moderna Covid shot → https://www.statnews.com/pharmalot/2022/02/04/covid19-vaccine-afrigen-biogen-alzheimer-pfizer-lilly-who-patent/ | 15:41 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Canada: +14031 cases, +169 deaths since 23 hours ago | 16:02 |
| de-facto | pwr22, yes Ozone oxidizes organic materials (including viruses etc) quite efficiently. Different organic materials have different degradation rates, i guess polypropylene degrades a lot slower than e.g. rubber, so that may be a problem with the masks bands | 16:21 |
| de-facto | .title https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozone_cracking | 16:23 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From en.wikipedia.org: Ozone cracking - Wikipedia | 16:23 |
| pwr22 | Yeah I imagine it might affect some straps | 16:24 |
| pwr22 | Cited thing said it was only a problem if they were under tension in their tests | 16:25 |
| de-facto | rubber bands are the part of the masks that wear out the fastest anyhow | 16:27 |
| lastshell | hey guys I hear for some one that new covid variant/sub variant one sympton is stomach ache ? | 16:30 |
| xx | it's one of possible symptoms even for regular covid | 16:31 |
| xx | digestive issues (stomach pains, vomiting, diarrhoa, ...) | 16:31 |
| lastshell | I didn't experience that with omicron | 16:33 |
| lastshell | but mom had some | 16:33 |
| pwr22 | Yeah it can effect your gut sometimes | 16:36 |
| * de-facto drinks Green Tea :) | 16:37 | |
| de-facto | pwr22, also not sure if Ozone would make organic materials on the PP fabric brittle, hence make it decay into smaller dust particles that may pass the masks filter and enter the lungs. hopefully it would not make the PP fibers themselves brittle (at some high concentration) because i would not want to breathe that in (e.g. when moving the fabric if fibers would break or such) | 16:39 |
| de-facto | probably not very big effect but maybe should be avoided | 16:39 |
| pwr22 | I drank a matcha latte earlier, does that count 😉? | 16:39 |
| de-facto | yes :) | 16:40 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): The data for hospitalization by age and vaccination status were also recently posted by @CDCgov Vaccination plus booster vs unvaccinatedAge 65+ 98% reductionAge 50-64 97% reductionlatest available absolute data posted with graphs below pic.twitter.com/cSizkmFzk2 → https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1489622202546679809 | 16:40 |
| pwr22 | de-facto: I'm less worried about that sort of dust than I am about breathing in a bunch of concentrated ozone trapped in the mask 😂 | 16:42 |
| de-facto | na ozone decays pretty fast | 16:42 |
| de-facto | (by oxidizing materials) | 16:42 |
| de-facto | if you leave it alone for a day it should be gone i guess | 16:42 |
| de-facto | btw not sure what milk would do to the Green Tea molecules, i drink it without milk (as they did investigate in those papers) | 16:43 |
| pwr22 | Depends how well it's attached I think | 16:43 |
| pwr22 | I've still been able to smell it in some fibrous materials before after quite some time | 16:43 |
| pwr22 | I'm drinking it because it's delicious but in not sure the papers did investigate that 😂 | 16:44 |
| de-facto | yes i love the taste too (without milk though) | 16:50 |
| de-facto | i put ginger slices in instead :D | 16:50 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): This figure of 3-dose >60% vaccine effectiveness vs Omicron infection is in keeping with the new @CDCgov data posted last nighttwitter.com/EricTopol/stat… → https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1489625425584160769 | 16:51 |
| pwr22 | I have some genmaicha too, I like that on its own | 16:51 |
| de-facto | looks delicious :) | 16:52 |
| de-facto | pwr22, btw out of curiosity, how do you blast the masks with ozone? | 16:54 |
| de-facto | build some box and attached an electric ozone generator? | 16:55 |
| pwr22 | de-facto @de-facto:libera.chat: just checked the masks after about 16 hours. When putting them on one smelt only get faintly of ozone, like after a photocopier has been on for a bit a while ago | 16:57 |
| pwr22 | The other still has a strong odor, I wouldn't wear that one yet 😂 | 16:57 |
| pwr22 | I have a few different ozone creating devices | 16:58 |
| pwr22 | The one I used in this case was a little battery powered generator I have, I think it's UV driven though I haven't opened it to confirm | 16:58 |
| pwr22 | It has a little fan built in and creates quite a decent amount of ozone according to my nose | 16:59 |
| pwr22 | I put it in an old Amazon box with two meals, sealed it up and put it in a little bathroom with an extractor fan on | 16:59 |
| pwr22 | I put it on the first setting which runs for either 15 or 30 mins, I forget which | 17:00 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): What is "the fastest any drug company has ever moved from a synthesizing a new chemical to proving that it safely treats a disease"?PaxlovidFew people realize that it was like the hyper=accelerated success of the vaccinestechnologyreview.com/2022/02/04/104… [... want %more?] → https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1489626882505015296 | 17:00 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Germany: +226782 cases, +185 deaths since 23 hours ago | 17:04 |
| pwr22 | de-facto: this is the one: https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B08L8KG4YV/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1 | 17:05 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): A review of the other recent studies for 3-shot vaccine effectiveness vs Omicron infections, all showing 50% or higher, and why it seems so much less with all the Omicron breakthroughserictopol.substack.com/p/where-do-we-… → https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1489630413693747200 | 17:10 |
| Brainstorm | New from r/COVID19: COVID19: ACE2 binding is an ancestral and evolvable trait of sarbecoviruses → https://www.reddit.com/r/COVID19/comments/skgwr1/ace2_binding_is_an_ancestral_and_evolvable_trait/ | 17:20 |
| * unturf[m] uploaded an image: (208KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/thRFyCuvllXPWfyyfRDfpEYE/inCollage_20220204_110755610.jpg > | 17:20 | |
| de-facto | .title https://www.pnas.org/content/118/49/e2110117118 | 17:22 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From www.pnas.org: An upper bound on one-to-one exposure to infectious human respiratory particles | PNAS | 17:22 |
| pwr22 | unturf.: what's that? | 17:31 |
| pwr22 | I don't really get it | 17:36 |
| pwr22 | Oh, that's just reminded me to do a lateral flow test whilst I wait for me tea to brew | 17:38 |
| pwr22 | Oh now my LFT is brewing whilst I drink my tea that has brewed | 17:49 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Marc Veldhoen (@Marc_Veld): CDC data updateVaccines holding strong.covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tra… pic.twitter.com/cdAmc4HBRN → https://twitter.com/Marc_Veld/status/1489640624479428617 | 17:49 |
| de-facto | pwr22, i have this one here, but its so strong that i do not use it at all it produces 10g/h (!) https://www.amazon.co.uk/Commercial-Generator-Industrial-Deodorizer-Sterilizer/dp/B07DPFRT34 | 17:51 |
| de-facto | i did try it out in the bathroom, it was so strong that it bleached the color of the towels and got me into trouble for not removing them prior to testing :P | 17:55 |
| de-facto | when i was entering the room to open the window i did not manage to completely prevent breathing, so i got a cough for almost a day from that | 17:57 |
| de-facto | its extremely aggressive to the lungs and should be avoided under all circumstances to breathe (even tiny amounts of) ozone | 17:57 |
| de-facto | that was two years ago or such, since then i never used that generator again because its overkill | 17:58 |
| pwr22 | Depends how tiny IMO, I have actually found my asthma is improved a lot by using an ioniser which kicks out enough ozone to notice in a closed room if on high. I aim for something approaching outdoor "normal" levels | 18:01 |
| pwr22 | That said, I do avoid breathing it in, especially in the vicinity of that little white box 😀 | 18:02 |
| pwr22 | Which is 100 times weaker than that rather industrial beast you have there 😀 | 18:02 |
| pwr22 | Thankfully no device I have seems to be able to generate enough ozone to bleach anything. I think quite commonly if you can smell it then you're already beyond the certified safe levels 😀 | 18:03 |
| de-facto | but an ionizer may place charges onto dust particles and therefore remove them from floating around by electrostatic binding them to surfaces, so maybe your Asthma also is reduced by reducing breathing (house?) dust particles that may otherwise float around in the air | 18:04 |
| de-facto | also btw those generators do produce NO2 etc too | 18:04 |
| pwr22 | I wouldn't want to be in the room with this white thing even though, even though it's weaker than your beast it does immediately emit an overpowering ozone scent | 18:04 |
| de-facto | yes i had to leave the rooms in seconds after enabling that, its crazy how intense it is | 18:05 |
| de-facto | took two deep breaths, enabled it, and immediately left the bathroom, closing the door and blocking the bottom of the door with tape | 18:06 |
| pwr22 | Yeah, should be not too much though, if it starts emitting orange fumes I'll worry about it more 😛 | 18:06 |
| pwr22 | I'm glad you were okay from your exposure - I think at the levels you were talking about there it could even have been harmful to more than just your lungs and airways, like you eyes too and even possibly skin | 18:06 |
| pwr22 | but it was a very short exposure so that's good | 18:06 |
| pwr22 | The ionizer definitely helps with the dust, that's why I brought it really | 18:06 |
| pwr22 | I also have a hepa filter that has a quiet sleep mode | 18:06 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Netherlands: +69104 cases, +10 deaths since 20 hours ago | 18:07 |
| pwr22 | I run that all the time but atm I turn off the ioniser at night | 18:08 |
| pwr22 | I recently cleaned out the electrodes and no it is able to quite quickly spit out enough ozone for me to smell on high so I only run it when I'm not around | 18:08 |
| pwr22 | and leave the door open too so it's actually doing the area of the whole flat rather than just the room | 18:08 |
| de-facto | yeah i waited for an hour after the timer run out, but then was concerned about the bathroom hence again took two deep breaths and entered the room, rushing for opening the window, thereby i took a tiny breath and immediately got a coughing attack, running out of the room and closing the door, going outdoors to breathe fresh air, the coughing continued for quite some time | 18:08 |
| pwr22 | I also thought it might have some small chance of helping with covid stuff when I got it | 18:08 |
| pwr22 | The hepa too | 18:08 |
| pwr22 | ☹️ | 18:08 |
| pwr22 | probably potentially lethal levels if you stayed in there | 18:09 |
| de-facto | really dont breathe ozone, its very unhealthy, even in tiny amounts | 18:09 |
| pwr22 | I disagree on the point that it is in the air all around us and we have evolved in this environment, and internal environments generally have less ozone than safe outdoors levels due to poor ventilation (especially in winter months) | 18:10 |
| pwr22 | Which can contribute to mould growth which is almost harmful | 18:11 |
| pwr22 | But I mean the very tiny 0.1 ppm levels that are established safe | 18:11 |
| de-facto | well but the amounts measured in the environment are ppm and those generators produce many orders of magnitude more than that | 18:11 |
| pwr22 | So I say "if you can smell ozone, don't breath it" | 18:11 |
| pwr22 | What talking with LjL about this yesterday | 18:11 |
| de-facto | the problem with smelling is that if the concentration slowly rises (e.g. when staying in the room while having that generator running) you would not notice, but only when entering the room from clean air, e.g. outside and recognizing the transition | 18:12 |
| de-facto | our nose is trained in recognizing *changes* in smell rather than constant stimulation, that seems to get ignored after some time | 18:13 |
| de-facto | at least up to some degree | 18:14 |
| pwr22 | Yes indeed, but when you factor in the half life, air exchange rates and room sizes then my little ionizer on low probably (I haven't tested it) doesn't settle at dangerous levels (though on high it probably would if I ran it indefinitely with all doors shut) | 18:14 |
| pwr22 | I would not recommend using one of those industrial strength things unless you have a warehouse size space with leaky windows though 😛 | 18:14 |
| de-facto | yeah its hard to estimate without properly measuring the levels with a device though | 18:14 |
| pwr22 | Yeah you're right about that | 18:14 |
| pwr22 | What is the main use for those industrial things? Presumably decontamination in hermetically sealed containers with the ability to fully vent the air | 18:15 |
| de-facto | also removing smells from hotel rooms afaik | 18:15 |
| pwr22 | de-facto: I can sort of base it on the "I've tried it and measured it with my body" approach 😛 | 18:16 |
| pwr22 | I'm not sure how easy it is to get or build something to measure ozone concentration but I would like such a device | 18:16 |
| pwr22 | Hotel rooms really? They seem way to strong and unsafe to use! Like how do they safely contain and vent the rooms? | 18:16 |
| pwr22 | My LFT is negative btw | 18:17 |
| de-facto | pwr22, you mean something like this? https://www.amazon.co.uk/Prettyia-Portable-Analyzer-Intelligent-Factory/dp/B08Q3GWS96/ | 18:17 |
| pwr22 | Yeah, too expensive for me ☹️ | 18:20 |
| pwr22 | Pretty sure the hepa filter probably helps keep levels down too by reacting it with carbon to produce carbon dioxide 🤔 | 18:22 |
| pwr22 | That catches a lot of dust itself on it's course filters too | 18:22 |
| de-facto | yeah probably, but i would not want to use such a generator in my living room or such, maybe it even would attack the rubber rings around speakers etc | 18:25 |
| pwr22 | The ioniser thing? I haven't noticed any organics degrading at that level | 18:34 |
| pwr22 | The hepa thing is separate from the ozone generating stuff btw, it's just fans and filters | 18:34 |
| pwr22 | https://www.amazon.co.uk/Levoit-LV-H128-Air-Purifier/dp/B08BR1CR78/ref=sr_1_5?crid=VQCHH06UJKYV&keywords=hepa+filter&qid=1643996066&sprefix=hepa+filter%2Caps%2C111&sr=8-5 | 18:34 |
| pwr22 | That's the one | 18:35 |
| pwr22 | .title | 18:36 |
| Brainstorm | pwr22: From www.amazon.co.uk: LEVOIT Air Purifier for Home Bedroom, Dual H13 HEPA Filters with Aromatherapy Diffuser, Quiet Sleep Mode, Air Cleaner for Smoke, Allergies, Pet Dander, Dust, Office, Desktop, 100% Ozone Free, LV-H128 [...] | 18:36 |
| de-facto | nice | 18:36 |
| de-facto | .title https://www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-1121993/v1 | 18:40 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From www.researchsquare.com: Safety, tolerability and viral kinetics during SARS-CoV-2 human challenge | Research Square | 18:40 |
| de-facto | quite interesting data | 18:43 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Michael Lin, MD PhD (@michaelzlin): Yesterday I discussed with @LauermanJohn of Bloomberg @BW how *Pfizer's* protease inhibitor was designedtwitter.com/michaelzlin/st… → https://twitter.com/michaelzlin/status/1489655481870127105 | 18:47 |
| Brainstorm | New from NPR Science: Coronavirus FAQ: My drugstore now offers antibody tests. Is it worth getting one?: Antibody tests may be coming soon to a pharmacy near you. Here's what the tests do — and don't — reveal about you and COVID-19. → https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2022/02/04/1077911880/coronavirus-faq-my-drugstore-now-offers-antibody-tests-is-it-worth-getting-one | 18:57 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): A new @CDCMMWR on effectiveness of masks for indoor gatherings, case-control studyUse of masks reduced infections by >60% and there was a substantial increase with higher quality masks to >80% with KN95/N95 respiratorscdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/7… pic.twitter.com/TWCsFd0DhL → https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1489660022166597635 | 19:07 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Italy: +100900 cases, +433 deaths, +884893 tests (11.4% positive) since a day ago | 19:09 |
| de-facto | .title https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-00319-9 (article about the paper https://www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-1121993/v1 ) | 19:31 |
| Brainstorm | de-facto: From www.nature.com: Scientists deliberately gave people COVID — here’s what they learnt | 19:31 |
| Alex1138[m] | those damned scientists! | 19:39 |
| xx | yet when I suggest it, people say it's impossible because it would be illegal/unethical | 19:42 |
| Brainstorm | New from Ars Technica: Cars: AAA tests driver-monitoring systems, finds many lacking → https://arstechnica.com/ | 19:45 |
| LjL-Matrix | Quote someone claiming it's impossible | 19:47 |
| LjL-Matrix | It's illegal in some places, and I'd argue highly unethical in any | 19:47 |
| LjL-Matrix | But the UK was working on starting a human challenge trial many many months ago and we were aware of that in here (though largely disagreed) | 19:48 |
| LjL-Matrix | So it would be weird for anyone here with a clue to state it's "impossible" | 19:48 |
| Tuvix | No, xx, you have explicitly advocated for a removal of ethics claiming that it's the *ethics* that is "hindering" (your words) progress. | 19:49 |
| Tuvix | That's offensive and doesn't belong here, and you've been told that before. *That* is what folks have taken strong issue with, not the potential of ethically-run programs, which obviously place a very, very high bar on human safety. | 19:49 |
| Tuvix | You'll note, in fact, that the Nature study defacto linked makes a point of discussing this safety involved. | 19:50 |
| LjL | freenode/##covid-19/2020-12-11.log:[03:15:26] <Brainstorm> de-facto: From www.nature.com: Dozens to be deliberately infected with coronavirus in UK ‘human challenge’ trials | 19:51 |
| LjL | freenode/##covid-19/2021-01-13.log:[03:07:32] <LjL> or you could be the UK and run human challenge studies, i suppose | 19:51 |
| LjL | freenode/##covid-19/2021-01-14.log:[19:31:38] <de-facto> human challenge trials are considered unethical, but there have been trials with human models, afaik mink and golden hamster where they produced hard evidence for airborne transmission (absolutely excluded every other transmission path between separated cages) | 19:51 |
| LjL | actually i take issue with these programs because i don't think they can be ethically run | 19:52 |
| LjL | not sure if i'm folks though | 19:52 |
| Tuvix | I haven't dug into the actualy study quite yet, but I'm mostly taking issue with the attitude that ethics is the "problem" with progress. I agree this is a very grey area with the potentially for things to go quite badly, although still better than prior examples in our world's history where such trials were done very literally without ethics. | 19:54 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): Yesterday another 3,300 American deaths reported.Now 80% of pandemic peak and still on the rise, 7-day averaging over 2,600 deaths per day pic.twitter.com/RcRcYf0ZI3 → https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1489671438827077639 | 19:55 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for United Kingdom: +84888 cases, +261 deaths since 23 hours ago — Canada: +154 deaths since 23 hours ago | 19:59 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): New: Assessment of an Omicron-specific booster vs Moderna original (vs ancestral) booster in macaques: no difference"An Omicron boost may not provide greater immunity or protection compared to a boost with the current mRNA-1273 [... want %more?] → https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1489675533461831681 | 20:05 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Marc Veldhoen (@Marc_Veld): Do masks work against a respiratory infection... duh!Effectiveness of Face Mask or Respirator Use in Indoor Public Settings for Prevention of SARS-CoV-2 Infection — California, February–December 2021cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/7… → https://twitter.com/Marc_Veld/status/1489676881519644674 | 20:15 |
| * watermelonsunris uploaded a video: (14787KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/CVtntMNbYGMgNvXpgAIjaGdf/WW3Psychological.mp4 > | 20:23 | |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Marc Veldhoen (@Marc_Veld): A preprint, data looks solid although in NHP; not much effect of an omicron-specific boostermRNA-1273 or mRNA-Omicron boost in vaccinated macaques elicits comparable B cell expansion, neutralizing antibodies and protection against [... want %more?] → https://twitter.com/Marc_Veld/status/1489678790607491074 | 20:24 |
| LjL | watermelonsunris, sorry, uncommented random videos like that, from tiktok or various dubious/random sources and no context, are frowned upon here, so i'm going to remove it | 20:25 |
| pwr22 | I actually applied to be infected with covid in some challenge trial thing early on in the pandemic | 20:27 |
| pwr22 | They didn't want me 😭 | 20:27 |
| watermelonsunris | LjL: it was about the pandemic | 20:28 |
| watermelonsunris | if I say it's about the pandemic thats context can I reupload it?\ | 20:28 |
| watermelonsunris | s/?\/?/ | 20:28 |
| LjL | watermelonsunris, i wouldn't say so. i watched it. it was about modern warfare then transitioning into biological warfare, which is, at best, a very fringe view of the pandemic | 20:29 |
| LjL | if you want to make an argument, we highly prefer for you to make it yourself with text, rather than posting videos | 20:29 |
| LjL | no | 20:29 |
| LjL | it's a random person saying things. you can say those things yourself, if they are compatible with the channel guidelines you can find in the topic | 20:29 |
| pwr22 | So if was saying covid is an intentional biological weapon deployed by some party or another? | 20:32 |
| watermelonsunris | Opinions are important 🤷 | 20:33 |
| watermelonsunris | if videos aren't allowed put that in the room topic because I did read it before posint | 20:34 |
| watermelonsunris | s/posint/posting/ | 20:34 |
| pwr22 | As much as they present facts | 20:34 |
| Brainstorm | New from Virology.ws: Trial By Error: More on the Dutch CBT Long Covid Trial; Finnish Study of “Amygdala Retraining” Program: By David Tuller, DrPH I have written a couple of times about a Dutch trial of internet-delivered cognitive [... want %more?] → https://www.virology.ws/2022/02/04/trial-by-error-more-on-the-dutch-cbt-long-covid-trial-finnish-study-of-amygdala-retraining-program/ | 20:34 |
| watermelonsunris | Opinions can be interpreted as factual if you agree with it, if not it's just an opinion | 20:34 |
| LjL | watermelonsunris, i don't welcome videos like that, that doesn't necessarily mean any and every video is banned. i prefer to tell people personally than have things in the topic that, generally, no one even reads. | 20:39 |
| LjL | and i must say the idea that you can say "it's about the pandemic" and then you have provided "context" gives me the impression you're trying to lawyer around rules, and that's also one good reason not to have them as "rules". because clearly "it's about the pandemic" doesn't really add anything | 20:40 |
| LjL | TikTok is a video platform. This is a chat platform. A video can sometimes be appropriate in the context of an ongoing discussion, but that's it. | 20:40 |
| xx | tiktok is a really crazy place to use for factual discussions | 20:42 |
| Tuvix | If backed with information and references to support a claim, it ends up just a medium as any other (although, yes, a bit of an odd choice perhaps) | 20:42 |
| xx | and most of the time the video could have simply been a paragraph of text instead | 20:42 |
| xx | like sure, if the video is just showing some graphs or animations and doing a voiceover, then sure. But if it's just a person talking to themselves? | 20:43 |
| LjL | Tuvix, maybe i should go and present information with references to support a claim in the form of bitmap-encoded scrolling text on TikTok :P | 20:43 |
| xx | I'm trying to remember if I've seen any immunologist/epidemiologist or anyone else in a relevant profession to covid ever use tiktok as a medium | 20:44 |
| Tuvix | Better keep it in a disused lavatory at the bottom of the stairs where the lights and stairs had gone out in the bottom of a locked file cabinet behind a sign stating 'Beware of the Leopard' too. | 20:44 |
| LjL | xx, closest it gets that i know of is a medical youtube i follow and think is a decent person doing some "shorts" on TikTok (and now Youtube Shorts) because it's popular | 20:45 |
| xx | LjL: I guess I'm just horrified at the idea that some people would use tiktok as a serious source of information about the pandemic | 20:45 |
| xx | how would we ever hope to solve the pandemic if we had a population that just trusts tiktok videos? | 20:46 |
| LjL | just go to youtube and watch critical reaction videos of tiktok videos | 20:47 |
| xx | heh | 20:47 |
| LjL | then maybe we can make reaction chats of the youtube video reactions to tiktok videos | 20:47 |
| xx | the future is so stupid | 20:47 |
| xx | and the future is here | 20:47 |
| LjL | and the present | 20:47 |
| watermelonsunris | did you even watch the video | 20:57 |
| LjL | watermelonsunris, did you even read where i said "<LjL> watermelonsunris, i wouldn't say so. i watched it." | 20:57 |
| watermelonsunris | it doesn't even matter it's a tiktok, it's a opinion about war which is now | 20:57 |
| LjL | because really that was a much easier thing to read than watching the video | 20:57 |
| LjL | this channel is not about war | 20:58 |
| LjL | and again, one thing is bringing some expert opinions, or papers, or valid information. if you just have to bring an "opinion", this is a text chat, so express that opinion yourself as text please. | 20:59 |
| Tuvix | To quote the beginning of the 2nd paragraph in the linked discussion purpose from the topic, "We welcome discussion of scientific and medical matters around COVID-19." Also, a bit later, "Try to keep it about policies more than politics and politicians" | 20:59 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for France: +1462 cases, +2 deaths since 22 hours ago — Netherlands: +69116 cases since 22 hours ago | 21:02 |
| Brainstorm | New from Contagion Live: No Benefit to Adding P2Y12 Inhibitor with Heparin for Moderate COVID-19: Investigators evaluating the risks and benefits of adding antiplatelet therapies to the usual heparin therapy for non-critically ill patients hospitalized with COVID-19 [... want %more?] → https://www.contagionlive.com/view/no-benefit-to-adding-p2y12-inhibitor-with-heparin-for-moderate-covid-19 | 21:04 |
| xx | LjL: I thought this channel was about the war on covid? | 21:05 |
| LjL | xx, that's not war is defined except by silly loaded definitions | 21:05 |
| LjL | not how* | 21:07 |
| xx | guess I was being silly | 21:08 |
| LjL | and loaded | 21:08 |
| xx | though I do view it as a war, especially given the loss of life being larger than 1st world war | 21:08 |
| LjL | it may be reasonable to say that we should do some "war-like" efforts to minimize the damage, but i'd remember the "-like". it's still very different from a war | 21:09 |
| xx | I very much would have preferred if countries took it as seriously as a war | 21:09 |
| LjL | (although i'm not sure we should do war-like efforts *anymore*, think that ship has sailed, now we should just struggle forever) | 21:09 |
| xx | "just struggle forever" sounds so horrible | 21:10 |
| LjL | agreed, but also what seems realistic to me | 21:10 |
| xx | if anyone remembers the HIV epidemic during the 90s, we also thought that we'd just struggle forever with it | 21:13 |
| Tuvix | I'd settle for struggling a bit less, especially here in the states. Our death-rates are still rising as a result of Omicron, and using the latest (yesterday's CDC update) 7-day average, a rate of death 23.7 times greater than the seasonal flu aveage death rate. | 21:13 |
| xx | but in 2022 we have effective treatment for it | 21:13 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID19 Vaccine Tracker: valerie: AnGes: AG0301-COVID19 → https://covid19.trackvaccines.org/vaccines/3/ | 21:14 |
| LjL | xx, i'd say people are still largely struggling with it. the treatments are expensive, full of side effects, and we don't actually have good prevention, and it's still considered an ongoing pandemic. | 21:15 |
| LjL | or, sorry, let me correct myself: "HIV/AIDS, or human immunodeficiency virus, is considered by some authors a global pandemic. However, the WHO currently uses the term 'global epidemic' to describe HIV." | 21:16 |
| Tuvix | To the extent hospitals are in many places still seeing a vast majority of unvaccinated who are bad enough to need the treatments in the first place, we do have good prevention: vaccines & boosters | 21:16 |
| LjL | obviously a global epidemic is different from a global pandemic. in... uhm... how insurance handles it? | 21:16 |
| LjL | but hey it's the WHO, what do i know. | 21:16 |
| xx | truvada works, there's prep and pep, there's screening of blood transfusions, there's needle exchange programs, none of those things existed in 90s | 21:17 |
| LjL | sure i'm not arguing things didn't improve | 21:17 |
| xx | I'd like to know how many of the ~1.2M currently HIV+ people in USA had it since 90s | 21:17 |
| xx | maybe we'll have something like longCOVID+ people in the future? | 21:18 |
| Tuvix | If we had vaccines for HIV as successful as we do for COVID, the landscape would look a lot different. I don't mean to downplay treatments for either disease, but policies should really focus on where the most effect can be seen. | 21:18 |
| LjL | xx, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIV/AIDS_in_the_United_States#/media/File:Prevalence_of_HIV_infections_in_the_United_States_and_total_AIDS_deaths.svg close enough? | 21:20 |
| xx | I'd need to make quite a few assumptions | 21:22 |
| xx | Tuvix: I'd make the comparison between wearing the mask and wearing the condom | 21:22 |
| xx | wonder if anyone made an observation between how likely mask refusers are to be condom refusers | 21:22 |
| Tuvix | Oral treatments for COVID and mAb infusion and whatever other new techniques we come up with are great, but these are all reactive measures, not preventative measures. Improving outcomes after a car crash is good too, but you get more ROI with high-impact measures that reduces crashes or reduce acute symptoms from them. | 21:22 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Derek Lowe (@Dereklowe): Very interesting: a Moderna attempt at an Omicron-targeted booster shot apparently doesn’t add anything past what the original vaccine provides in a primate model (!) twitter.com/erictopol/stat… → https://twitter.com/Dereklowe/status/1489694891466801152 | 21:23 |
| Tuvix | Masks are an interesting comparison, but it's largely a secondary measure. Masking in addition to vaccination is a way to improve odds, but masking without vaccination does a lot less. I don't think the comparison with safer-sex practices in the context of HIV applies as well given the protection level of masks isn't as high in real-world uses by non-medical staff. | 21:24 |
| Tuvix | (going by that recent MMWR using the California population, anyway, those numbers are much different) | 21:24 |
| xx | well, proper wearing of masks can be directly compared to proper wearing of condoms | 21:24 |
| xx | I'd say they didn't provide nearly as much info about proper mask wearing and handling, as they did for condoms | 21:25 |
| xx | especially the reuse... | 21:25 |
| Tuvix | A condom during sex is a lot different than say requiring every participant at a night club to have a properly-fitted N95 mask on and ensured it's used as a medical-grade donning/doffing procedure with care taken to avoid damage or moisture buildup given the environment. The effectiveness in practice is going to be less in a situation like that. | 21:27 |
| Tuvix | I don't think the comparison is a very good one. | 21:28 |
| Tuvix | Going on ballpark effectiveness against serious outcomes, vaccination has a more comporable rate of protection in the context of COVID. | 21:28 |
| xx | ever been to a properly organized orgy? Everyone has to provide identification to determine age, test results that are verified against identification, and condom use is mandated and checked | 21:28 |
| Tuvix | Not to say masks don't matter, becuase they do, but used alone as the sole mitigation? It's not even close. | 21:28 |
| Tuvix | You've made the comparison stating that the condom alone was similar to masks. Now you're changing the premise of your comparison again to include a bunch of testing that, yes, is required in that situation, but is obviously not practical for a night club. | 21:29 |
| Tuvix | Even _if_ you were to test every night-club individual at the door, and also require they had a PCR test within 72 hours prior, and also have them required to test again after they left, you'd still end up with COVID-spread in practice. We know this from the disease spreading where negative-tests and masks are required, so the claim of similar effectiveness really doesn't hold up. | 21:31 |
| Tuvix | The outline above is also really not practical for most social events like that which are moving more and more to a "return to normal" (regardless of the impact that has on COVID spread.) | 21:31 |
| xx | sure, covid spread, but at least it might be limited to R<1 | 21:32 |
| xx | and the testing costs less than one drink in a good club | 21:32 |
| Tuvix | In-person dining has a hard enough time just verifying requirements like the Green Pass or similar in the UK, or other countries with various vaccination and/or test requirements. Proposing that we could fix this by using testing akin to an orgy seems to be a major non sequitur that ignores all of the issues. | 21:32 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID19 Vaccine Tracker: valerie: Arcturus Therapeutics Inc: ARCT-165 → https://covid19.trackvaccines.org/vaccines/148/ | 21:33 |
| Tuvix | A PCR test costs $130 here. RAT tests have a high enough rate of false-negatives to be practical to catch everyone, and as aforementioned is not a viable option in practice. We just don't have enough tests, and this relies further on the assumption that people are actually following the rules. We've had European folks here noting that some folks just open the test-kits to get the QR code and discard the | 21:34 |
| Tuvix | still-unused kit. | 21:34 |
| Tuvix | So, to do what you're proposing would seem to require an army of enforcement to strictly oversee the conditions the tests are performed in. Which will be unpopular, result in protests, will cost an inordinate sum of money, and won't have the desired effect anyway since a single test is still not going to prevent contagious spread. | 21:35 |
| Tuvix | Combined with the highly close quarters in something like a club, and factoring in all the people _those_ exposed will later be in social contact with at thier homes, jobs, and elsewhere in the world, the comparison seems to fall apart. | 21:35 |
| Tuvix | A great example of that: Tonga and the relief aid. | 21:36 |
| Tuvix | Despite many percautions, the disease manage to spread anyway. And that's with fairly controlled conditions between 2 countries that were taking this a whole lot more seriously than average citizens do. | 21:37 |
| LjL | <xx> ever been to a properly organized orgy? ← where is my to-do list... | 21:40 |
| xx | thanks to the Tonga example, they are finally giving way to the idea that it's not just airborne, and alternative ways of getting infected are viable. If they wouldn't take it that seriously, we'd never have this example. | 21:42 |
| xx | hence if they tried taking the situation at nightclubs and elsewhere seriously, and we'd not see the desired effect (or perhaps it would even make it worse), then it would be a datapoint to consider what we're doing | 21:42 |
| LjL | xx, i'd argue "they" have not completely given way to the idea it *is airborne* (as opposed to "droplet-spread"), depending on the exact entity involved and context. | 21:43 |
| LjL | "2 meter" nonsense is still widespread. | 21:44 |
| Tuvix | It's not just clubs. It's workplaces, grocery stores, the post office, the bank, and so on. | 21:44 |
| xx | well then speaking for the future, it would be nice to gather some real world data now on how the things would work, and perhaps get people used to it, before the next pandemic happens (something like airborne ebola) | 21:45 |
| Tuvix | We can't avoid all human interaction without breaking society, so the question is what improvements to first preventative measures can we do that we know are effective (eg: vaccines, masks, reducing social impact realizing we can't make it zero, etc.) followed by improved methods to deal with breakthrough casess when they come up. | 21:45 |
| xx | I'm pretty sure china now has some very valuable data on what exactly works and does not work, and they might not share this info with the rest | 21:45 |
| xx | the only info I have from china for the past 2 years is just from people looking at the land from ships docked in port, they don't even let them leave | 21:46 |
| xx | maybe we'll get some info now during the olympics | 21:48 |
| Tuvix | So, to circle back, condoms are an order of magnitude greater than the vaccines alone looking at VE. How, exactly, do we get a "condom level effectiveness as a VE against contracting STIs" in COVID measures, practically, in a way that society will accept in a realistical and non-theoretical way? | 21:53 |
| Tuvix | We have vaccines that could do a big part of that, but as noted are still an order-of-magnitude short. Worse than that, significant parts of the world are either not yet able to *get* vaccines, or refuse to *take* vaccines that are readily available? | 21:53 |
| xx | proper education on mask wearing, reuse and disposal, proper masks available, having masks visible in tv shows and movies and news reports would be a start | 21:54 |
| xx | having it as part of school curriculum too | 21:54 |
| Tuvix | There are spots on TV here about masks; masks in the US are now available at no charge in many pharmacies, and schools have had mask requirements and discussed the matter a fair amount, at least where state governors have not banned their use or discussion (like some US states have.) | 21:55 |
| Tuvix | If anything, states banning them are proof that society is unable to accept these or in at least *some* parts of society, there is a strong refusal to look at these as seriously-viable measures. | 21:55 |
| Tuvix | I specifically stipulated that I was looking for socially-acceptable solutions, so these doesn't seem to apply. | 21:56 |
| Tuvix | It's not just ulikely to be implemented by society: it's actively being rejected by society today. | 21:56 |
| xx | condoms weren't a socially acceptable solution for a long time too, and still aren't in many places | 21:56 |
| Tuvix | So, how do we fix this? | 21:56 |
| Tuvix | Sure, they still aren't in some circles, but the hospitals and morgues aren't filled up today with HIV or AIDS patients and deaths; it's COVID. | 21:57 |
| xx | it's also antibiotic-resistant gonnorhea, which is lethal | 21:57 |
| Tuvix | If you meant to say that in 3 or 4 decades we'll hopefully have COVID under more control like we do with HIV/AIDS, sure, I hope that's true, but I also hope it doesn't take us that long… | 21:57 |
| Tuvix | Otherwise, given the scale of impact SARS-CoV2 has shown so far, we as a globe are in for a LOT more death and long-term impact. | 21:57 |
| Tuvix | Today, even when the former US president finally admits to a crowd that vaccines are successful, he gets boo'd. This isn't a matter of getting the information out to the public; they public has lots of exposure. They *choose* not to follow the mitigations science has given us. | 22:00 |
| Brainstorm | New from COVID on Twitter: Eric Topol (@EricTopol): The compelling case for primary prevention of pandemics: it's a bargain, < 1/20th of the value of lives lost each yearscience.org/doi/10.1126/sc… @ScienceAdvances Astute review by @DrAriBernstein @HarvardCCHANGE @AmyEcon @Andy2Dobson and colleagues pic.twitter.com/2WViEyILEi → https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1489704601007755265 | 22:02 |
| Tuvix | I think a comparison with a preventative measure that has enforcement at a policy level is more apt a comparison. I don't see the vaccination rate changing anytime soon without external pressure, eg, look at US vaccination rates recently as contrasted with deaths: https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#trends_dailydeaths_7daypeoplefullyvaccinated | 22:03 |
| LjL | condoms quite effectively prevent transmission; current vaccines largely don't. apples to oranges. | 22:04 |
| Brainstorm | Updates for Spain: +74937 cases, +190 deaths since 23 hours ago | 22:05 |
| Tuvix | True, although the choice to use a condom is typically to keep you (or your partner(s)) safe, and less about the altruistic benefit of not spreading it further. | 22:05 |
| Tuvix | In that respect, vaccines do a far better job at keeping the individual up to date on their vaccinations from serious side-effects much more than spreading the disease to other people. | 22:06 |
| Arsanerit | I should get an FSME vaccine. | 22:06 |
| Tuvix | I think it's a harder sale to do something for the general good, especially if you can't see the immediate value to your own individual to do it. | 22:06 |
| Arsanerit | Sorry, TBE in English | 22:06 |
| LjL | this matters at a personal level. on the population level, whatever the motive behind individuals using them, condoms are effective at preventing transmission; COVID vaccines aren't. (other vaccines sometimes are) | 22:07 |
| Tuvix | Sure, and I agree with all that, but I don't think people would care as much if it weren't for the serious side-effects. Maybe I'm being too cynical, but a common refrain I hear from those who refuse vaccines is that they don't view the risk to themselves as that great. Even those dying in the hospital interviewed often say some variation of 'I didn't think it could happen to me' | 22:08 |
| Arsanerit | my colleague claims his natural immune system is good enough | 22:09 |
| Arsanerit | "product of x hundred thousand years of evolution" | 22:09 |
| Tuvix | I don't think improvement to the spread of disease will make a difference when those refusing won't even take it to save their own lives. | 22:09 |
| Tuvix | Let's say we could get VE against transmission up to the same level as VE against death. Who of those declining the vaccine would race out to get it then? | 22:10 |
| Tuvix | (for the sake of argument, let's just assume that the next VoC spread in equal proportion so the disease is still rampent in society, at least among the unvaccinated.) | 22:13 |
| LjL | Tuvix, if VE against transmission were up to the same level as VE against death, i'd see a much much stronger argument for mandatory vaccination | 22:13 |
| Tuvix | Yes, that's a silly supposition, but I'm not talking about reducing COVID because of lack of spread, but trying to see who in the yet-unvaccinated actually care about VE against transmission as a reason for their refusal. I'm positing that very few care. | 22:13 |
| Arsanerit | Also if vaccine protection lasted longer. | 22:14 |
| LjL | but instead we have 90% of the eligible vaccinated in Italy or France, and yet since it's not working all too well, we try to solve that with QR codes | 22:14 |
| LjL | (QR codes that ironically happen to hinder vaccine trials) | 22:14 |
| Arsanerit | In those places with mandatory vaccination, how often are boosters mandatory? | 22:14 |
| Tuvix | Hmm, so that's an interesting case. A strong political driver to put pressure on vaccines for, what, the reduction in spread? Or is spread secondary to the benefits of the almost-zero hospitalization and loss of life we'd see as a result? | 22:14 |
| LjL | Arsanerit, they are mandatory here for everyone for which vaccines are mandatory in the first place (i.e. for everyone over 50, and for anyone wanting to access public transport and non-essential shops) | 22:15 |
| Tuvix | Given my theoretical VE(spread) = VE(death( world, why would policy makers want to push what are still likely to be highly unpopular vaccine requirements even if it's no less effective against death, and there's still enough circulating virus to hospitalize/kill the unvaccinated? | 22:15 |
| LjL | Tuvix, continued spread (look at France's number) means we have a ticking clock to the next variant, and we don't know how well the vaccines will fare against it, if at all. BA.2 already shows worrisome signs of further vaccine evasion. | 22:15 |
| Arsanerit | but many of those vaccines protect for many years or even for life | 22:15 |
| LjL | Tuvix, they're already wanting to push these requirements in some European countries. if the US has a different culture overall, i don't know what to say about that. | 22:16 |
| Arsanerit | there seems to be public support for mandatory vaccinations in austria and germany | 22:16 |
| Arsanerit | there is a loud minority opposing it though | 22:16 |
| Tuvix | Polling seems to show that it's widely a popular view to have more mandatory vax requirements, but I suspect it's a similar vocal minority in protest. | 22:17 |
| Arsanerit | LjL: how often do they have to get the booster renewed? | 22:18 |
| Tuvix | That minority may be sized differently in different places (eg: it seems louder in the US than many other countries) but I think LjL may have made a more useful broad point: it's about the ability to implement meaningful policy than it is those protesting that drive available mitigations. | 22:18 |
| LjL | Arsanerit, currently, never. a booster gives you an unlimited-time pass. | 22:18 |
| LjL | that may change in the future for sure. | 22:18 |
| Arsanerit | I see. | 22:19 |
| Tuvix | Well, that actually makes sense to me; why put a limit on it when we don't even have a 4th dose recommended for the majority of the population? | 22:19 |
| Arsanerit | My impression is that the protesting minority in the US has more representation in mainstream media and politics. | 22:19 |
| Tuvix | We can't let policy get ahead of science, otherwise we have to scramble to "fix" the broken policy, or risk a bunch of people falling into non-compliance who would otherwise be willing to comply. | 22:19 |
| Tuvix | Arsanerit: Oh, absoutely, an entire political party in roughly 50% power here :\ | 22:20 |
| Arsanerit | Why are recovery certificates valid for less long than vaccination certificates? Is that scientifically justified? | 22:20 |
| Tuvix | Even if the politicians know better, they're happy to pander to those against even some middle-ground policy health measures. | 22:20 |
| Tuvix | Arsanerit: IIRC, yes, but it may depend on for instance how many times you've been infected and with what varients. Given these are hard (virtually impossible) questions to answer, it's hard to categorize people into risk-levels based on prior infection as easily as it is with vaccination status. | 22:21 |
| Brainstorm | New from ##covid-19 Zotero group: Scientists deliberately gave people COVID — here’s what they learnt: Type Journal Article Author Ewen Callaway URL https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-00319-9 Rights 2022 Nature Publication Nature Date 2022-02-02 DOI 10.1038/d41586-022-00319-9 Accessed 2022-02-04 21:16:53 [... want %more?] → https://www.zotero.org/groups/covid_links/items/8TENM2DZ | 22:22 |
| Tuvix | For instance, the varient you've had, provided you know either by sequencing or becuase you got infected during a time of mostly unambiguous prevailing VoC, could confir anywhere from a fairly high degree of short-term (some months) protection, or almost none. | 22:22 |
| Tuvix | It's very hard to make a national policy given the variation. | 22:22 |
| Tuvix | I'll be curious to see what we learn about Omicron; I've read some possibly concerning early reports about re-infection, but I wonder how many of those are actually sub-varients that didn't necesssarily get sequenced and just called "Omicron" | 22:23 |
| Arsanerit | Tuvix: I see. So the problem is that the variance of how long protection lasts is larger for prior infection than for vaccinations, and that the period is therefore put relatively shortly, to also cover the cases with little protection — even if most infected people wouldn't need a booster so soon yet? | 22:23 |
| Tuvix | Effectively, yes. And I get the feeling it's a lot harder to study too since not every case can be sequenced. | 22:25 |
| Arsanerit | Thank you for the explanation. | 22:25 |
| Tuvix | Add to that people who are positive and don't get tested formally and we're missing a lot of data points, whereas if you get vaccinated it's much easier to track that at a national level. | 22:26 |
| LjL | Arsanerit, recovery certificates will also be unlimited length here from now on. | 22:27 |
| Arsanerit | LjL: oh, interesting. Here they only last 3 months. | 22:28 |
| Tuvix | Is that retro-active for recovery, or starting recently now that Omicron is here? | 22:28 |
| LjL | i'm not sure | 22:28 |
| LjL | it's retroactive for boosters | 22:29 |
| LjL | so probably also for recovery | 22:29 |
| LjL | i think it would be better to make it unlimited for recovery *plus* at least one vaccine dose | 22:30 |
| Tuvix | Not a big deal, I was just curious since it doesn't look like prior infection from 6+ months ago does much to help against Omicron. | 22:30 |
| LjL | having people who recovered from covid just ones being equated to people who had 3 doses, i don't think that's necessarily sensible | 22:30 |
| LjL | Tuvix, well, a booster from 6+ months ago probably also doesn't do a whole lot | 22:30 |
| Tuvix | Right, I've seen some reports where the repeat exposure (from confirmed infection or vaccines) is the driver of the immunity buildup. | 22:30 |
| Tuvix | Sure, there's lots of talk about that in the US since the official fully-vax definition is still 2x mRNA or 1x J&J | 22:31 |
| LjL | 1 J&J is just ridiculous | 22:31 |
| Tuvix | From various experts I've heard discuss the matter, it's more of a messy political and agency classification than anything strictly science based, but there are implications to workers who are covered currently in some capacity by policy or regulation that are unboosted. | 22:32 |
| Tuvix | We know very well at this point the protection benefit without boosters is much smaller, but policy lags behind the science long enough to be concerning :\ | 22:32 |
| Tuvix | (that has also no doubt contributed to the hospital/death wave in the US in particular.) | 22:33 |
| LjL | i predict that protection benefit *with* boosters will also be vanishingly small, either with time, with new variants (also time), or both | 22:33 |
| LjL | and i predict that timeframe to be 6 months or less | 22:33 |
| Tuvix | Yea, that's been my worry too, just in time for a new Summer 2022 wave, much like Delta begain causing issues in July last year. | 22:33 |
| Tuvix | I was discussing the Alpha/Delta comparison elsewhere just a couple days ago, and someone less involved in the month-to-month progression suggested it was largely a seasonal effect. Alpha/Omicron haven't been helped with winter spread in the Global North of course, but that doesn't explain Delta at all. | 22:35 |
| Arsanerit | Here recovery is only "unlimited" if it comes after 2 doses. | 22:35 |
| Arsanerit | Here the rules are very complicated. | 22:35 |
| Tuvix | Ah, see, that's an approach that at least seems to treat the infection *as* the booster, and I'm sure the immune system does get a boost from the virus. | 22:36 |
| Tuvix | How that matches up agianst the vaccine as a booster really remains to be seen, and it's not even really Omicron we need to be worried about, but whatever is coming in the next 3 to 12 months. | 22:36 |
| Tuvix | Our rules are simple, around me: do whatever you want, and maybe at least pretend to comply with business mask-required signs. And if you openly defy those rules, odds are good staff at those businesses won't even mention it for fear of you taking business elsewhere or being hostile and/or violent. | 22:37 |
| Arsanerit | They list 11 ways to get tho "2g+" state here, 4 of those are permanent (any combination of 3 vaccinations or 2 vaccinations and 1 recovery, but 1 vaccination and 2 recoveries is not permanent) | 22:39 |
| Tuvix | There's got to be something in between those 2 rule structures that's a bit more balanced :P | 22:39 |
| Tuvix | (the ones you described and the ones I laid out near me)( | 22:40 |
| Brainstorm | New from CIDRAP: ACIP fully recommends Spikevax, as CDC expands wastewater surveillance: Stephanie Soucheray | News Reporter | CIDRAP News Feb 04, 2022 So far, 37 states are part of the SARS-CoV-2 wastewater surveillance system, a number expected to grow [... want %more?] → https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2022/02/acip-fully-recommends-spikevax-cdc-expands-wastewater-surveillance | 22:51 |
| Brainstorm | New from NPR Science: 900,000 Americans have died of COVID in just 2 years of global pandemic: The U.S. death rate from COVID-19 continues to increase daily, as the rolling seven-day average for daily COVID-19 deaths has been above 2,000 since Jan. 23. → https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2022/02/04/1078100069/covid19-deaths-us | 23:01 |
| Brainstorm | New from CIDRAP: Africa needs sixfold rollout boost to hit COVID vaccine target: Lisa Schnirring | News Editor | CIDRAP News Feb 04, 2022 With robust vaccine supply coming in, groups are revamping rollout programs to more quickly and efficiently get doses into [... want %more?] → https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2022/02/africa-needs-sixfold-rollout-boost-hit-covid-vaccine-target | 23:20 |
| Brainstorm | New from StatNews: Animal study suggests Omicron boosters may not provide a benefit: A new study conducted in primates suggests there may not be a benefit from updating Covid-19 vaccines to target the Omicron variant at this time. → https://www.statnews.com/2022/02/04/animal-study-suggests-omicron-boosters-may-not-provide-a-benefit/ | 23:50 |
Generated by irclog2html.py 2.17.0 by Marius Gedminas - find it at https://mg.pov.lt/irclog2html/!
