| onefang | fluffywolf: Think we have gone #devuan-dev for this support channrl. B-) | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| leah | you should still provide src iso's though, just to absolutely ensure gplv2 compliance. but it's your project. as far i'm concerned i'm fine | 00:00 |
| gnarface | leah: unaltered packages (which is the vast majority of them) are not even copied; they're served directly from debian servers by http redirect through devuan servers | 00:00 |
| leah | in one of my projects, i distribute static linked binaries for some utilities, and i'm so anal about gpl compliance that i include the src dvd of the entire distro i built the binaries on lol | 00:01 |
| fluffywolf | I don't think the gpl requires providing source in iso form just because the binaries are provided in iso form. simply providing access to them from the same place is sufficient. | 00:01 |
| leah | oooh | 00:01 |
| fluffywolf | and, when re-distributing other binaries, you don't need to provide source at all, just the information for the original location of the sources. | 00:01 |
| leah | so lots of packages on devuan's http server are just 301 redirects to debian? | 00:02 |
| onefang | Correct. | 00:02 |
| leah | so you make it look like it's from you, and as far as the user concerned it is | 00:02 |
| fluffywolf | section 3c applies here. | 00:02 |
| leah | but behind the scenes it's http 301 | 00:02 |
| leah | that's very clever | 00:02 |
| onefang | Though deb.devuan.org is a bunch of servers behind DNS round robin. | 00:02 |
| leah | must be annoying to maintain though | 00:02 |
| leah | do you have like | 00:02 |
| leah | hundreds of 301 redirects in your httpd config | 00:02 |
| gnarface | i don't know the details, but the project is called amprolla and it's on the gitlab at git.devuan.org | 00:03 |
| leah | amprolla | 00:03 |
| gnarface | amprolla3 to be exact, i think | 00:03 |
| leah | https://git.devuan.org/devuan/amprolla3 | 00:03 |
| gnarface | yea, that looks like the one | 00:03 |
| leah | very clever | 00:04 |
| leah | ok i'll give devuan a go | 00:04 |
| leah | sorry for being so anal earlier. i was asking about devuan from perspective of commercial usage so i care a lot more about the little things | 00:04 |
| leah | i'll figure something out | 00:04 |
| gnarface | the summary is that if you go to deb.devuan.org/merged/ you see the combined results of the debian and devuan packages, but if you go to deb.devuan.org/devuan/ you only see the forked ones (which usually panics people when they do it by mistake because there's less than 200 of them iirc) | 00:04 |
| leah | as a personal user, devuan is fine for me | 00:04 |
| leah | technically, someone can install devuan without doing upgrade during install | 00:05 |
| leah | and then run apt-get source | 00:05 |
| leah | though | 00:05 |
| leah | does apt-get source function correctly for a given installed package, when that package has an update available in the repo? | 00:05 |
| leah | for downloading the precise source code of the *older* package prior to it being updated in the repos | 00:06 |
| gnarface | every effort has been made to make the base tools behave like they used to in debian | 00:06 |
| leah | the reason i'm interested in devuan is specifically because it's basically debian. but without systemd | 00:07 |
| leah | i like debian. but hate systemd | 00:07 |
| jason1234 | leah: we can all understand very well. | 00:07 |
| gnarface | we try to keep this channel clear for support issues though, editorializing should happen in #devuan-offtopic | 00:08 |
| jason1234 | leah: you will likely like Wayland too soon ;) | 00:08 |
| leah | yeah i'm completely clueless about that. why would i use that versus xorg | 00:08 |
| fluffywolf | grrrrr, while we're complaining about things, can I complain that mpv's man page is outdated and lists arguments that it no longer accepts? | 00:08 |
| fluffywolf | and even gives examples that no longer work? | 00:08 |
| leah | btw. have you heard of hexavalent browser. security-focused fork of chromium | 00:08 |
| jason1234 | leah: because debian will move to wayland. | 00:08 |
| djph | huh, isn't that why we're all here :) ... also why on earth is cobol missing from stable, but available in testing? | 00:08 |
| leah | https://hexavalent.org/ | 00:09 |
| djph | fluffywolf: is it a gnu application? | 00:09 |
| leah | this project shows a lot of promise | 00:10 |
| fluffywolf | yep. if you give it the examples shown in the man page, it bitches at you to go read a url listing what options were removed. lol | 00:10 |
| onefang | Ask Debian about mpv's man page being out of date. | 00:11 |
| onefang | Though they might direct you further upstream. | 00:11 |
| djph | fluffywolf: obviously you have to read the infopage then (also, I kinda hate that about GNU) | 00:11 |
| fluffywolf | oh, no, it's not gnu. I mis-read that as asking about gpl since leah's gpl discussion was on the brain. lol | 00:12 |
| leah | yeah well, i saw about gpl section 3c applying to devuan so i'm satisfied with the outcome of that discussion | 00:13 |
| onefang | And THAT's one reason we try to limit this channel to support. lol | 00:13 |
| leah | devuan is a non-commercial project so that's fine | 00:13 |
| leah | gplv2 section 3c that is | 00:13 |
| fluffywolf | djph: a better question is why isn't cobol missing from testing? :P | 00:14 |
| onefang | Again that's likely a question for Debian. | 00:15 |
| djph | fluffywolf: hush you | 00:19 |
| djph | fluffywolf: :( | 00:20 |
| fluffywolf | djph: and by missing, I mean "killed with fire". | 00:20 |
| jason1234 | in new devuan, chromium gives "Trace/breakpoint trap" and fails. | 00:25 |
| golinux | Please define "new devuan" | 00:26 |
| jason1234 | 4.0 | 00:27 |
| Jjp137 | djph, apparently there was a period of time where gnucobol wasn't in testing (which was bullseye at the time): https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/gnucobol | 00:27 |
| Jjp137 | I have no idea why though | 00:27 |
| jason1234 | ah, into 5.0 | 00:28 |
| djph | Jjp137: yeh, I just gave up and installed oldstable in a vm, because with my luck I'd trash everything moving to testing | 00:34 |
| golinux | leah: If you download directly from debian it could fubar things. Remember, we have a banned package list and for good reason. Filters out things in Debian that will break Devuan or won't work. | 00:42 |
| golinux | Note I did not read the entire scrollback | 00:42 |
| onefang | Also, we did fork some packages. | 00:47 |
| fluffywolf | good god... the changes to mpv's options were made in 2016. and the man page still hasn't been updated. | 00:50 |
| leah | golinux: yeah no worries. install devuan, do apt-get source for all packages | 00:59 |
| leah | the purpose of that discussion was simply: i want to *sell* devuan pre-installed on computers, but to do so, i must account for GPLv2 compliance. and i have 2 choices: written src offer, or direct distribution. i always choose the latter with any software i provide to customers | 01:00 |
| leah | i've decided that on devuan installations, i will just apt-get source everything | 01:01 |
| leah | yeah then i can probably sort something out there with FAI | 01:01 |
| leah | devuan project itself is fine. gplv3 section 3c applies. but for me, section 3a or 3b applies | 01:02 |
| leah | and i always choose to comply with 3a | 01:02 |
| leah | earlier, i was also suggesting devuan opt for 3a, for iso's and such (provide src dvd-1 dvd-2 iso etc, like debian). but meh | 01:02 |
| leah | but devuan as a non-commercial entity can opt for 3c | 01:02 |
| leah | sorry i meant gplv2 section 3c lol. not gplv3 | 01:03 |
| leah | v3 is much simpler. it specifically allows outsourcing of source code hosting. useful for torrents and such. but a project like devuan still has lots of v2 stuff | 01:04 |
| ibanja | startlxde lands me in an openbox session. I have exec startlxde in my .xinitrc file. Any ideas as to what is happening? Distro=Devuan stable | 01:36 |
| gnarface | maybe the .xinitrc is being ignored? | 01:38 |
| onefang | lxde is the desktop environment (hence the de part of the name) , openbox is the window manager it runs on top of. | 01:38 |
| ibanja | I get the same results using a dm... tried light and sddm. | 01:38 |
| gnarface | hmmm, i'm not familiar enough with it apparently | 01:39 |
| ibanja | I know... I have been using lxde for years with no issues. | 01:39 |
| ibanja | chimera upgrade broke it | 01:39 |
| gnarface | you know what though, i never managed to get "exec" to do what i wanted it to in ~/.xinitrc, i'm executing mine as a shell script | 01:40 |
| ibanja | In fact I have a chimaera new install with the same problem | 01:40 |
| ibanja | what's in the shell script? | 01:40 |
| ibanja | I don't use the .xinitrc on beowulf | 01:41 |
| gnarface | other than the #! preamble, just full-path calls to my mouse event daemon and window manager's startup program | 01:41 |
| ibanja | just thought I'd try in chimaera since it wasn't loading lxde | 01:41 |
| ibanja | hmm... let me try that | 01:42 |
| gnarface | well, you can also use update-alternatives to make sure the window manager and session managers you want are the actual defaults | 01:42 |
| gnarface | something like: update-alternatives --list x-window-manager | 01:44 |
| gnarface | and: update-alternatives --list x-session-manager | 01:44 |
| gnarface | ibanja: in your ~/.xinitrc make sure that the window manager is the final call, not backgrounded, but if you call any other startup programs in there, make sure they're before it and backgrounded with a trailing "&" | 01:45 |
| gnarface | i'm not using a session manager though, i'm starting my window manager bare with startx from a text prompt | 01:46 |
| gnarface | the ~/.xinitrc file, i'm not sure it's obeyed right in other contexts | 01:46 |
| gnarface | i know that at one time a long time ago there was something wrong with doing it with "exec" and no shell preamble, and i simply changed to this method without ever figuring out what was wrong with the other. it wouldn't be a surprise to me if in the intervening years such a bug disappeared then reappeared multiple times | 01:47 |
| gnarface | if you have the alternatives defaults setup correctly, you shouldn't even need a ~/.xinitrc to set the window manager but once again that's something i decided was easier to avoid struggling with than doing "the right way" | 01:51 |
| ibanja | Got it... i deleted .xinitrc. Then I noticed lxde-core was missing. Once I installed that it started working. I have no idea why lxde-core was not installed, but it's working now. | 01:58 |
| ibanja | Thanks for the help | 01:58 |
| ibanja | I didn't know x-session-manager was selectable in alternatives... good to know. | 01:59 |
| gnarface | well, since i don't have one installed i *think* it's called x-session-manager but double check for x-desktop-manager or something similar if you don't find it at first | 02:00 |
| gnarface | there's a whole slew of useful x-[placeholder] thingies | 02:00 |
| ibanja | I see that now... I just did a "update-alternatives --get-selections |grep -i x" | 02:01 |
| ccao | hi | 03:02 |
| ccao | I installed guix on devuan but the daemon does not seem to be running | 03:02 |
| ccao | Do I have to create my own service? | 03:02 |
| ccao | I installed with the command `sudo apt install guix` | 03:03 |
| ccao | any help/advice is greatly appreciated | 03:03 |
| ccao | what I tried doing currently was running the guix daemon as root: | 03:05 |
| ccao | `sudo guix-daemon` | 03:05 |
| ccao | then opening another terminal and running `guix pull` | 03:06 |
| ccao | does anyone happen to know why there is a `/etc/systemd/system/` directory? | 03:08 |
| brocashelm | ccao: https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=1925 | 03:09 |
| brocashelm | >Most of those "alarming" files are just systemd units files, put thereby daemons/packages/utilities who "also" support systemd in a way oranother. So they are not alarming but just *totally* *harmless* if youdon't have a running systemd as PID 1, since only systemd understandsand can run them. It would be *totally* *useless* (and utterly*stupid* IMHO) to fork, rebuild, and maintain a few more hundredpackages only because they happen to provide a | 03:10 |
| brocashelm | systemd unit file forthose systems where systemd is used. | 03:10 |
| brocashelm | i hope that answers it | 03:11 |
| fsmithred | removing unit files would be like removing init scripts. | 03:11 |
| ccao | brocashelm: thanks! | 03:12 |
| ccao | fsmithred: thanks! | 03:12 |
| ccao | how do I know what init I'm currently running? | 03:12 |
| ccao | I just installed defaults for everything with the desktop iso install | 03:12 |
| ccao | I'm running xfce | 03:12 |
| fsmithred | cat /proc/1/comm | 03:12 |
| ccao | It looks like there is an /etc/sv | 03:12 |
| ccao | init | 03:13 |
| fsmithred | you don't know what init you installed? | 03:13 |
| ccao | fsmithred: nope | 03:13 |
| ccao | I catted the above and it says `init` | 03:13 |
| brocashelm | you can also get init info from inxi | 03:13 |
| fsmithred | ok, /etc/sv is where the runit run scripts go | 03:14 |
| fsmithred | only acpid and ssh are there | 03:14 |
| fsmithred | those are the only ones working by default when you install runit | 03:14 |
| ccao | It looks like I have only acpid | 03:14 |
| ccao | in /etc/sv | 03:14 |
| fsmithred | you probably don't have ssh server installed | 03:14 |
| fsmithred | so the run scripts are there just like the systemd service files and the sysv init scripts, | 03:15 |
| fsmithred | because the package maintainers don't know whidh one you will use | 03:15 |
| ccao | fsmithred: thnx | 03:16 |
| ccao | Has anyone tried running Guix on devuan? | 03:16 |
| ccao | looks like I'm running SysVinit | 03:17 |
| ccao | according to `inxi -x -I` | 03:17 |
| ccao | does devuan have any docs for SysVinit I can follow? | 03:18 |
| ccao | I'd like to make a service for the guix-daemon | 03:18 |
| ccao | not sure how much devuan took care of for me in the installation of guix | 03:18 |
| ccao | on debian everything gets setup after a `sudo apt install guix` | 03:18 |
| ccao | there's build-users that get created for the guix-daemon, for example | 03:19 |
| ccao | not sure if devuan is managing that or not | 03:19 |
| fsmithred | it's not a forked package, so we didn't do anything with it | 03:19 |
| ccao | ohh ok | 03:20 |
| ccao | does anything get run like creating build-users? | 03:20 |
| ccao | or do I have to create those myself too? | 03:20 |
| ccao | https://sources.debian.org/src/guix/1.2.0-4/ | 03:20 |
| fsmithred | dunno. If you did it in debian, it's the same package. | 03:20 |
| ccao | not sure what you mean y if I did it in debian | 03:21 |
| ccao | I currently installed guix with devuan | 03:21 |
| ccao | sudo apt install guix | 03:21 |
| ccao | I'm just wondering what's left to do to support a proper installation of guix | 03:21 |
| fsmithred | you said something about how it works on debian | 03:21 |
| ccao | yep, was just mentioning how debian sets everything up after an install | 03:22 |
| fsmithred | I said it's not a forked package. Anything the debian package does it should do in devuan, unless it's missing a necessary init script. | 03:22 |
| ccao | oh ok | 03:22 |
| fsmithred | it is the same package. | 03:22 |
| ccao | so I guess the only thing I am missing is an init script | 03:22 |
| fsmithred | like about 99% of the devuan repo, we just pull it from debian and don't change it. | 03:23 |
| fsmithred | check orphan-init-scripts package | 03:23 |
| fsmithred | name might be wrong | 03:23 |
| fsmithred | orphan-sysvinit-scripts | 03:23 |
| ccao | https://man.sr.ht/~whereiseveryone/guixrus/tipsandtricks.md#example-guix-runit-service | 03:24 |
| ccao | the above link shows all that is needed for a runit service for the guix-daemon | 03:24 |
| ccao | would the sysvinit script look similar? | 03:24 |
| fsmithred | runit is easy to install | 03:24 |
| ccao | I have no experience with sysvinit | 03:24 |
| ccao | `sudo apt install runit`? | 03:24 |
| fsmithred | runit or runit-init | 03:25 |
| fsmithred | I think just 'runit' | 03:25 |
| ccao | what's the difference between those two? | 03:25 |
| ccao | ok, I just tried `sudo apt install runit` | 03:25 |
| ccao | worked | 03:25 |
| ccao | does devuan have docs for using runit? | 03:25 |
| ccao | I've consulted the void-docs before for runit | 03:26 |
| fsmithred | no, but there's a discussion on the forum with links to docs and run scripts | 03:27 |
| fsmithred | https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=3716 | 03:27 |
| fsmithred | there are other discussions about it, too. But that's a good start. | 03:28 |
| ccao | fsmithred: thanks! | 03:28 |
| ccao | is this irc room logged by devuan? | 03:28 |
| ccao | somewhere | 03:28 |
| ccao | also, I saw mentioned that shepherd is supported as an init system | 03:29 |
| ccao | Is there any discussion regarding using shepherd that I can read anywhere? | 03:29 |
| ccao | that is, using shepherd with devuan | 03:29 |
| ccao | I also see shepherd is not even packaged | 03:31 |
| golinux | ccao: Yes. In the channel topic | 03:31 |
| golinux | link to channel logs | 03:32 |
| ccao | but the devuan home page mentions shepherd as a supported init system... | 03:32 |
| ccao | thanks | 03:32 |
| golinux | It mentions it as an init system | 03:32 |
| golinux | In 7 yeas here, I have never seen anyone trying to install shepherd. | 03:33 |
| ccao | I'd like to install shepherd | 03:33 |
| ccao | but I don't even see that it is packaged in the repos | 03:33 |
| ccao | unless I have to enable a special repo for it? | 03:33 |
| golinux | It is not on the devuan home page. I guarantee. | 03:34 |
| ccao | `sudo apt install shepherd` does not find it | 03:34 |
| ccao | golinux: https://www.devuan.org/os/init-freedom | 03:34 |
| ccao | > The following init systems are either available or being considered for inclusion in Devuan: | 03:34 |
| ccao | I guess shepherd is being considered | 03:35 |
| ccao | one of the ones being considered, that is | 03:35 |
| ccao | but not included yet officially | 03:35 |
| golinux | Yes. | 03:36 |
| golinux | Perhaps you would want to provide it for Devuan | 03:36 |
| golinux | :) | 03:38 |
| ccao | shepherd is packaged by guix already | 03:39 |
| ccao | so maybe I can just install it after I install guix? | 03:39 |
| ccao | guix install shepherd | 03:39 |
| golinux | If is were in Debian, it would be available in Devuan. | 03:39 |
| ccao | yup, but I guess no one has packaged shepherd for debian | 03:40 |
| ccao | I know someone that uses shepherd on debian but they install it with guix | 03:40 |
| ccao | and I think they run shepherd from systemd or something weird like that iirc | 03:40 |
| golinux | Nope. They are even removing init scripts from packages. | 03:41 |
| ccao | It would be cool to support shepherd on devuan | 03:41 |
| ccao | devuan would be the only distro that is not Guix System that supports shepherd | 03:42 |
| golinux | There is one post on our forum that mentions it: https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=3272 | 03:42 |
| golinux | And some old discussion on the DNG mail list (which I've obviously forgotten): https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/search/20380101.000000.00000000@ml:dng,shepherd.en.html | 03:45 |
| ccao | is this more or less what I have to do to use runit on devuan? https://docs.voidlinux.org/config/services/index.html | 03:50 |
| ccao | golinux thanks for the links | 03:50 |
| al1r4d | hello | 08:34 |
| Guest92 | hi, i was blocked during registration and "Unfortunately it looks like your request is spam. If you feel this is a mistake, please direct any inquiries to the forum administrator at IRC #devuan at irc.libera.chat" | 15:59 |
| Guest92 | Is anyone here? | 16:02 |
| gnarface | yes, people are here | 16:03 |
| jason1234 | a question about Devuan: "systemd is the future, basically every major distro is using it by now" <-- do you think that systemd is getting larger and more popular among linux, or opposite? | 17:20 |
| fsmithred | opinion polls belong in #devuan-offtopic, please. | 17:21 |
| brocashelm | does apt plan on supporting parallel downloads anytime soon? | 21:46 |
| onefang | Ask Debian. | 21:48 |
| hagbard | It kinda already does, if the packages come from different repositories. | 21:50 |
| brocashelm | it's cool, i just installed apt-fast from github | 21:53 |
| golinux | brocashelm: Don't you know that speed kills? Sorry for off-topic. | 22:14 |
| brocashelm | i figured pacman already supports that and it makes updating a breeze. is it a bandwidth issue? | 22:17 |
| sedrosken | could be that, or multiple concurrent connections on a large enough update might be seen as a DoS attack | 22:25 |
| duck_ | Contemplating installing Devuan on an iMac 14,4. What do you think the chances would be of getting the Mac keyboard and mouse working? | 22:57 |
| onefang | Try a live ISO and see. I was able to boot my 2012 Mac Mini with a live Devuan ISO. I specifically bought a Mac Mini so I didn't end up with an extra keyboard and mouse, coz I use a KVM switch, so can't say if those work. | 23:03 |
| duck_ | It certainly works with a live Debian. Just don't want to ditch a good keyboard and mouse | 23:05 |
| onefang | Should work fine with Devuan then. | 23:05 |
| duck_ | Thanks | 23:25 |
| DRWhite | Hi folks, I have an issue where all my icons just keep staying in the middle of my desktop, and I can't find any solutions or anyone that even talks about having the issue. Anyone here have the issue or had it and resolved it? | 23:57 |
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